Riot nerfing adc again?

Lewd KaiˇSa··2 votes·2,035 views

so is there any context on why they are completely gutting fervor? this is a massive nerf to literally every adc that uses it and you will be doing 500-1k dmg less per team fight in the mid to late game after these changes. for those of you who dont think this will be a massive nerf here are some numbers. to start with let just think about basic attacks. right now at max lvl 10 auto with current fervor of battle at max stacks will do 1120 extra dmg on your auto with new one it will only do 600dmg assuming no 0% crit chance. with 50% crit chance and no ie current fervor stays at 1120dmg new fervor is only still only at 900dmg(assuming 5 crits out of 10). with 50% chance crit with ie passive current fervor still at 1120 new fervor is still lower at 1050dmg. it takes to 70% crit with ie to finally out do current fervor as current one will still do 1120 and new one will do 1230, this is however is over look 1 major factor most people who build 70% crit are doing it with runaans yes there is some builds that have rfc+pd+ie to go over 50% crit but most people. for those of dont know current fervor is on hit dmg and runaan apply full on hit dmg. so currently right now if you auto 5 times with runaans at max stacks you will get a massive extra 1120dmg on your auto (2 bolts per auto times 5 bolts is 10 bolts that apply the full 112 dmg per bolt). with the new fervor the ad will get reduce by runaans bolt so you will only get a minor 307dmg add on to your bolts from fervor(that is with ie passive 10bolts assuming 7 of the botls will crit cus of 70% crit chance) that is literally a lose of 813 dmg in just 5 auto attacks! in 10 auto attacks that will be a lost of 1626dmg! even if you consider the extra dmg you will be doing on your main auto attacks that is 768dmg less in 5 auto and 1536dmg loss after 10 auto attacks! now it is true new fervor will be ad so your abilites with ad ratio on them will get the ratio of that 60ad but most adc do not typically do heavy amounts of dmg through abilities as they typically have 1 dmg ability that is mainly used for poke/wave clear and then they have typically an utility ability and then last ability is normally a mobility ability or auto attack steroid or another utility ability. not to mention these are normally long range abilities with medium dmg that are used typically to harass before a start of fight so you will have no stacks or to secure a low hp straggler which your stacks might wear off before you can get a shot on them then so this 60ad for most ad is not going to be making up the dmg lost on auto attacks. the 2 biggest people who might get a buff or stay about the same are probably lucian and jinx. now lucian should be kind of obvious lucian his ult doesnt proc on hit effects therefore does not proc fervor however has a 20% ad ratio per shot so you will get 12 extra dmg per shot at 30shots that is potential of 360dmg per ult plus his q will do 60 extra dmg per target hit with it. however you do need to realize that this new fervor will get reduce dmg on his double tap so it will only give 36bonus dmg(at max lvl) on his 2nd hit(90 after an ie crit) vs fervor currently is 112 so this might cancel out dmg add to his ability or atleast some of it. so some might be confused about why jinx might stay same or get better. the answer is mainly her rockets so her rockets do 110% ad dmg so the new fervor will apply 66dmg at max lvl instead of 60 or a shocking 165dmg with an ie crit. not only that tho they apply splash dmg but the splash dmg does not apply on hit affect so current fervor is not applied to the target it splash on but the new fervor since it is flat ad will. so your rocket will bee doing the same dmg if you hit two people without a crit will be doing more on a single person. and if you hit 3-4 people with crit instead of doing just 112 extra dmg from fervor you will be doing 660 dmg from fervor if you get a crit and hit 4 people. also the blow from runaan on jinx is less than other adc because her runaan bolts proc her splash dmg (although reduce cus of runaans) so can get back to doing the same amount of dmg currently if they splash on 3-4 targets (current each bolt will do 112 extra dmg on main person hit new one will do 17 but can hit multiple people and crit so a crit that hits 3 people will do a total of 124 dmg which is actually more but spread across more people). this is new fervor is even worse for ez becuase his q applies on hit effect but not so fervor right now on his q does 112 new one will only add 66dmg to each q EDIT: sivir will get a massive buff from this since her w bounces dont apply current fervor but will apply get increase dmg form new one plus she builds 70% crit normally without building runaans. draven/vayne will also probably benefit they have ad steriod empowered auto typically build atleast 50% crit and dont build runaans. TL:DR new fervor will- heavily nerf- ez cait ashe trist kog kalista twitch will buff jinx rockets but nerf her mini gun will buff lucian ult/q but nerf his passive will be a direct buff to sivir/vayne/draven no direct affects: mf varus corki jhin because these for typically go DTF or thunderlords. (all numbers are calculated before resistance if you are wondering why they are so high but the % difference should remain the same)

50 Comments

Big Lincoln9 votes

that's the point

Lewd KaiˇSa2 votes

lol so the point is to make a role that has no influence early and relies on scaling to carry not scale as hard? i mean pretty much all high elo players agree that adc is already the worse role to gain elo on in solo q as it is by far the most team reliant role in the entire game.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

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Lewd KaiˇSa1 votes

they are not even close to the strongest archetype in the game. they have been by far the weakest archetype in the game. notice how the team with the highest rated bot lane has not even made it to the finals in the last 4 worlds championships. the reason why adc is picked in every match has literally nothing to do with the archetype and has everything to do with the economy of the game and maximize resources. there is 5 people on a team but only 3 lanes and a jg. this mean that 2 people will absolutely have to split exp which is why you do not see tops and mid in the bot lane because top/mids are designed to be level dependent. adc are designed to be significantly less dependent on lvls for their power spike but are designed to be more dependent on gold to make up for this. so it has nothing to do with the power of the roles and everything to do maximize the usefulness of the resources on the board. because if you sent a mage bot they would be weak until basiclly until lvl 18 where they would catch up with the other mid laners and top laners in lvls

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

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Lewd KaiˇSa1 votes

lol you can compare marksmen to top because all tops and mid share in common they are both item+lvl dependent. even in a the roaming sup meta the adc was still typicall 1-3 lvls behind the mid and top because they still had to share a little bit of exp with the sup at times. the only things adc provide a team with sustain dmg without being lvl dependent. there are plenty of mids and tops who are just as good if not better at taking objectives then the average adc if this was such a strong need then teams would always pick these champions. On top of that if that is what made adc so strong and why you take an adc every game teams would literally just take the best objective destroying adc everygame so you would only ever see jinx and trist cus they are by far the fastest objective killing adc. but you literally never see them. In fact the 3 top played adc in game are some of the slowest objective killers out of an adc and often are worse at taking objectives than the tops that were being picked. jhin ez lucian ashe were the most played adc at worlds this year. jhin ez lucian are all terrible at taking objectives compare to other adc since they are all super short range with auto attacks and have really low attack speed.

also the pro's pretty much univerisally agree that adc is the weakest role in the game and has been for years. season 5 going into worlds DL said that he hopes riot buffs adc so they are not completely useless anymore and can be more than utility bots and wave clear. wildturtle said early season6 reason why he became an adc main was back in season 2 they were the strongest unlike now which they are pretty useless. I have watch dozen of challenger/master players stream and they all have said at one point with in last year that adc is almost a completely useless role. I have been coached by an ex lcs player and 2 challenger players they told me stop playing adc it is the most useless role to actually win a game with. notice how literally none of the korean teams this year in worlds tried to play through their adc they all were top or mid focused. look what happen when a team that focused on playing through bot (h2K) met a team that top focused (SGG). h2k got completely dumpster. all the pro pretty much universally agree it is a garbage role. it is a role that does nothing but dent turrents until 35-40mins into the game in a meta where games are typically over by 25-30minutes. most tanks can literally kill adc by not even attacking or using any abilities on them. a zac with thornsmail+cinderhulk literally will kill a 2 1/2 item adc by the burn affect and being auto attack before the adc kills the zac. the zac player literally does not even have to use their abilites they literally just have to stand near the adc and be auto attack and they will kill the adc. yet you are some how claiming despite the pro universally agree it is a crap role, that no bot lane focused team has been to the finals in worlds in 4 years, and that adc literally get killed by any archetype besides sups that they are a strong roll.

franticFurball4 votes

A boo hoo hoo.

You had your year of being broken. Prepare to be stomped.

Lewd KaiˇSa2 votes

if they are so broken why does the majority of challenger/master tier players say that adc is the worse role to gain elo on in solo q? it is a role that spikes at 3 1/2-4 items in a meta where the 15-25min mark is the most important point of the game. I dont approve of elo boosting but if you ever actually look up elo boosters they almost all play mid or jg to boost accounts and pretty much none play adc/sup so if you people who are literally making a living off getting people elo are not playing it to gain elo how can it be broken? it is literally the role with the lowest influence on the game for the first 25minutes of the game. there only saving grace is that the can take over the late game and stomp but it is so hard to reach that now and this makes it even weaker

franticFurball1 votes

if they are so broken why does the majority of challenger/master tier players say that adc is the worse role to gain elo on in solo q?

Whos talking about playing as botlane ADC, sunshine?

Lewd KaiˇSa1 votes

lol where else have adc been played and domianted? im assuming your talking about graves jg but he isnt a major problem anymore and doesnt even use fervor. the majority of this season has been dominated by mages. adc is by far the most team reliant role in the game and making them weaker just gives even less reason play them now

franticFurball1 votes

lol where else have adc been played and domianted?

Excuse me, are you talking about the same game?

Toplane and Midlane ADC ring any bell? Ever tried to lane against a Graves or a Draven top mid-season?

Lewd KaiˇSa1 votes

graves is not a marksman anymore he has the same range as most juggernauts and is played like a juggernaut. if you got killed by graves mid you're just bad

Ralanr1 votes

He is not played like a juggernaut. If anything he's more played like a ranged skirmisher if not a marksman.

C10 Rekkles3 votes

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Lewd KaiˇSa2 votes

a 3 item jinx/ashe/sivir will actually kill them self on a zac with a thornsmail+cinderhulk+spirit visage before they kill the zac. im not even joking my friends test this the other day. I tried ie+attack speed item+lw item and i tried ie+attack speed item+BT. we also tried it on multiple tanks most of the out lived the adc without using any abilities or auto attacking on the adc all they had to do was use their sustain/defensive abilites and most the time the burn from a cinderhulk and dmg from thornsmail would kill the adc before the adc could kill the tank.

Ralanr1 votes

You're going to need a video or something because thornmail without any other armor items is not enough to kill an ADC that's attacking you, especially if they have bloodthirster. Their own sustain should overcome the damage.

Lewd KaiˇSa1 votes

thornsmail reflects 25% of your bonus armor+15%of dmg taken before reduction is calculated reflect back as magic dmg. considering at 3 items if you have BT you will have no armor pen besides the small amount from masteries you be life stealing 20% of what you are gaining after dmg reduction and they will reflecting back 15% of what you are doing before reducing. consider they have 100armor from thornsmail alone it is pretty easy to see that the dmg healed is going to be less than the dmg reflected. let say you have 250 ad they have 100 bonus armor (that is literally just thornsmail not even counting their champions natural armor or runes masteries) that means they will have 50% dmg reduction so they will be reflecting 63 dmg per auto(250x.15+25). while you will only be healing 25hp per auto (250 reduce down to 125 from armor x.20% life steal).

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

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Hauling Ashe1 votes

{quoted}

Marksmen aren't suppose to be good against tanks. They are extremely overpowered for objective control. ideally, they need to be very weak dueling other champions to make up for just how good they are against objectives

Umm, what? The ADC is the only one with the ability to take down tanks in a survivable amount of time. It's part of the "rock-paper-scissors" mechanic, with ADC > Tank > Assassin > etc.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

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Ralanr2 votes

Actually marksmen are supposed to be tank counters because they are the top dealers of sustained damage, which naturally counters tanks.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

[deleted]

Ralanr2 votes

They trade durability for range.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

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Ralanr1 votes

Melee ADCs actually have scaling MR per level.

They are in fact more durable. The difference is rather negligible though.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

[deleted]

Ralanr1 votes

Just making sure we have the right facts is all.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

[deleted]

Ralanr1 votes

It's also probably because melee dps don't survive fights long enough like they used to while marksmen can kite away.

HeeroTX1 votes

All the "good" melee adcs have an overabundance of mobility to counteract marksman dmg. Which is actually the much more "breaking" statistic. Since it allows them to "hit and run" on EVERYBODY.

Lewd KaiˇSa1 votes

you really dont understand adc at all lol. they are significantly more squishy than any melee carry besides a few them have substantially less mobility. on top of that they typically have much less burst dmg than most melee adc. marksman are so underpower and have been since season 4. they are suppose to shiny in long teamfights where they can auto attack multiple times and are designed to kill front to back. right now they cant even do that tho. besides armor pen adc most adc are completely useless until 4 times in a meta that is complete mid/early game focus.

Lewd KaiˇSa1 votes

melee adc are way more durable than ranged adc. they pretty much universally have better scaling resistance and hp on top of that most of them have far more mobility and often have multiple defensive cd while range adc have know. you really claiming a riven with a shield that scales off ad that is on like a 3cd mid game is really same in durability as a jinx? are you really claiming a fiora is less durable than vayne? are you claiming that jax who literally gets mr+armor based of his ap/ad and an ability that blocks auto is less durable than kalista? even if you take really squishy melee ad like zed they are substantially more durable than any adc.

Lewd KaiˇSa1 votes

resistance are to strong right now lol what? a cinder+thornsmail tank will literally kill an adc by being auto attacked. if resistance are so op right now then why all season long carry champions are build 1-2dmg items then full tank? like fiora akali zed kat diana ekko kled yasuo etc all who are suppose to build either full dmg or mostly dmg have pretty much built 1-2dmg items into full tank. the reason being because adc have been completely useless for a long time and they are the ones who are literally designed to kill tanks but literally can do nothing to tanks until 4 items when they game is already over.

Ahristocats2 votes

ignored this whole wall of text to tell you something

on-hit bonus AD is terrible on adc, and better on bruisers like Trundle Shyvana unlike bonus AD because: -those bruisers have terrible ad scalings on spells -those bruisers stacks attack speed -they deal mixed damage (a lot of magic damage at least), meaning that armor penetration isn't built on them (MOST OF BRUISERS) -they all don't build crit

bonus AD is better on adc because: -they have ad scalings on spells (all) -they don't build that much attack speed, but focus more on crit and ad (though they build attack speed) -armor penetration is built on them all the time -they build crit which means that bonus AD will be better than on-hit ad.

Lewd KaiˇSa1 votes

lol dont commet if you didnt read. bonus ad is a lot less effect on adc because most their dmg comes from auto attacks as most have auto attack steriods while only having typically 1 dming ability with medium dmg. people like kog/trist are often attacking 2-2.5 attack per second and once you factor in runaans that is 6-7.5 attack per second. on top of that many of their abilities apply on hit affects such as twitch spray and pray or ez q. most the adc that rely on abilites already use dtf such as jhin/mf or use thunderlords such as corki.

G0dot1 votes

It's not like the +60 ad bonus will scale with runaan , crit chance and IE's passive...

Oh wait , it is !

Lewd KaiˇSa1 votes

it actually wont scale with runaans. if you read the original post i posted the number and math. current fervor is an on hit affect to it doesnt benefit from crit/ie but the new fervor does this is true HOWEVER current fervor since it is an on hit affect does not do reduce dmg on the runaans bolt it does the full 112 dmg on each runaans bolt the new passive since it is ad will get reduce to 25% so 15dmg or 37.5 dmg after crit with ie so that is almost 100dmg less per bolt before criting and almost 80 dmg less per bolt after crit. consider you do 2 bolts per auto that is a lot of dmg lost for runaan user. I also posted how much crit you would need to out dmg current fervor with new fervor you would need 70% crit with an ie to out dmg current fervor and that is only by 90dmg more over 10 auto attacks the problem is most 70% crit builds include runaans and if you factor in the dmg lost on those runaans bolt you would be at a net loss of 1500dmg in total spread across your runaans bolt. so these changes will either be a huge nerf to runaan user or will force them to go pd+rfc now instead of rfc+runaans which pd+rfc is a much worse team fighting build. the only runaan user that has some compensation for this is jinx because it will increase her splash dmg(current fervor does not apply on her splash dmg)which if you get enough target hit by the splash dmg could make up for the dmg loss or even out put more dmg

Lewd KaiˇSa2 votes

yea instead of actually reading the topic and having a discussion using facts and numbers lets just mock the post without reading and down vote gj forums.

Rivuo2 votes

IDK MAYBE BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE TAKING 450 FERVOR IN A FEW SECONDS???

Your name is get jinxed and you're complaining about fervor nerf funny how fervor is the strongest on jinx

Lewd KaiˇSa1 votes

lol didnt read did you? all those these changes will nerf jinx minigun they will actually benefit jinx rocket as current fervor is not applied on the splash dmg of her rockets but new one will increase dmg of her splash dmg so in like plat below where people clump/position poorly she might do significantly more dmg in a team fight if she can get the splash dmg to hit 2-3 extra people.

Rivuo1 votes

[{quoted}](name=x Get Jinxed x,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QE9sAJnE,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2016-10-23T15:41:22.481+0000)

lol didnt read did you? all those these changes will nerf jinx minigun they will actually benefit jinx rocket as current fervor is not applied on the splash dmg of her rockets but new one will increase dmg of her splash dmg so in like plat below where people clump/position poorly she might do significantly more dmg in a team fight if she can get the splash dmg to hit 2-3 extra people.

Then why are you saying if its a nerf if its a buff ;X...........

Fuck fervor take it off

Lewd KaiˇSa1 votes

if you read i said who it was a nerf to

it is a nerf to attack speed steriod users who use runaans so kog/trist/twitch/kalista/jinx minigun mode

for people with higher than normal ad ratio on their auto attacks so like cait/jinx rocket mode/ashe with q on it will be a buff to their main auto but a slight nerf to their runaan bolts dmg so it will be about the same over all dmg out put possibly even slightly higher late game depending on build.

people who have ad ratio steroids on their auto attacks and dont build runaans(because they typically build PD) it will be a decent buff to. so like vayne/draven/sivir.

the point is that top tier adc(jinx/cait/lucian) for the most part will do close to what they are doing now as they are losing dmg in some parts of their kit but making it up in other parts. however some of the weakest adc right now are getting massive nerfs by this kalista auto attacks do not have a 1.0 ad ratio like normal auto attacks she ahs like a .7ad ration on her auto attacks so this is a HUGE NERF for a already struggling adc. kog is some else who relies on torrent of fire to do dmg. he has very little ad ratio in his kit and relys on most only on hit affects to dmg so he will be losing a lot of dmg also.

Rivuo1 votes

[{quoted}](name=x Get Jinxed x,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QE9sAJnE,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-23T17:07:23.099+0000)

if you read i said who it was a nerf to

it is a nerf to attack speed steriod users who use runaans so kog/trist/twitch/kalista/jinx minigun mode

good

for people with higher than normal ad ratio on their auto attacks so like cait/jinx rocket mode/ashe with q on it will be a buff to their main auto but a slight nerf to their runaan bolts dmg so it will be about the same over all dmg out put possibly even slightly higher late game depending on build.

draven and other adcs have higher ad than cait cait goes 2 attack speed items

people who have ad ratio steroids on their auto attacks and dont build runaans(because they typically build PD) it will be a decent buff to. so like vayne/draven/sivir.

the point is that top tier adc(jinx/cait/lucian) for the most part will do close to what they are doing now as they are losing dmg in some parts of their kit but making it up in other parts. however some of the weakest adc right now are getting massive nerfs by this kalista auto attacks do not have a 1.0 ad ratio like normal auto attacks she ahs like a .7ad ration on her auto attacks so this is a HUGE NERF for a already struggling adc. kog is some else who relies on torrent of fire to do dmg. he has very little ad ratio in his kit and relys on most only on hit affects to dmg so he will be losing a lot of dmg also.

Fervor needs to be deleted

Draaaaaavéééééén1 votes

Yes please draven kinda feels shit.

Akenero1 votes

Please,, please clean up your math. I can't read this in the current state.

Irelia Bot1 votes

Um... New fervor scales with Crit damage while the one on live serves does not.

If anything Fighters are gettign the short end of the stick in damage they will do.

Hauling Ashe1 votes

I don't understand the negative feedback to this thread. 9 times out of 10 I've seen the tankier teams ravage the ad teams unless things don't make it past the 25-minute mark. Most ADCs (with the exception of fairly broken champs like Vayne) have very little impact on the overall game other than objective securing. And even then they rely on their teams to make sure they're not blind ganked when they extend to inner turrets.

Right now bruisers are the carries of the game. Bot lanes can go 0/10 right now and a 5/0 mid or top will still carry in most cases as long as the jg isn't mia.

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