Death's Dance is complete bullshit

Fisher No Chains·Jun 4, 2017·17 votes·4,890 views

Just played a game vs Draven Janna when Draven went DD first item. I was LB.

Just saying, right now I'd like to uninstall this game. I understand that in the end he was fed (17/3 or something like that), I understand that our Karma gave him 2 kills in lane, but how the fuck is an assassin supposed to kill an adc that heals for 200, and takes ZERO burst damage because of that stupid 30% bleed? Being a 3/1 assassin with a full item vs a 3/1 adc with DD means that he'll automatically win a 1v1. And this is just ridicolous.

Why was it buffed in the first place? 30% is a fucking lot and 15% was more than enough.

Man I wish we could ban items instead of champions.

37 Comments

EedatJun 4, 201711 votes

~~Death's Dance~~ Draven is complete bullshit

Think thats what you meant. You can't balance an item around one champion or one game

Fisher No ChainsJun 4, 20171 votes

Again, I don't care if it is Draven or Jhin or Riven or Fiora building it. The fact is that the item itself is busted and that buff was unneeded.

EedatJun 4, 20177 votes

I don't care if it is Draven or Jhin or Riven or Fiora building it

Its so broken that Fiora doesnt even actually build it really?

Or Jhin?

Even most Riven's dont build it a lot of the time

If it's actually "busted", why don't people build it on those champs all the time? Or even frequently for that matter?

Fisher No ChainsJun 5, 20171 votes

I'm not using stats from sites, I'm using my games because they impact me more than every other stat tbh.

In my games there's at least 1 enemy with DD, and as a mid main it tilts me that I'm not able to do my job (burst people) because of the amount of defense that enemy AD carries can have with no tradeoff.

VallalanJun 4, 20171 votes

no. no. death's dance is indeed broken. I'm building it every game on every adc and it is legit cancer. every game I get the same responses from enemy team. "wow that shit is actually broken".

just a few things I've done since building DD every game:

1.) face tanked a full vel koz combo and full duration ultimate and killed him while standing in his ult.

2.) literally 1 v 3 by myself just by constantly auto attacking.

3.) force a MASTER YI to flash away from me with his ult still on and true damage on. (i was only slightly ahead of him during this time).

like legit the item is 100% broken. its just not realized yet. once the pros start building it in LCS it will get attention. right now, it's just a sleeper op item. build it while you can.

If you build item 3812 item 3046 item 3047 item 3155 you are insanely hard to take down in the mid game. like you are TANKY as an adc which is pretty insane to me.

that said the item does have trade offs. the damage reduced is a BLEED. which means if you are smart what you will do is unload your shit on the adc and run away. do not stand there and let them auto you which is how they live. people don't understand that. many times a burst mage will unload their shit on me and then just stand there letting me auto them while i out heal the bleed.

if you run away I will die from the bleed. especially if you ignited me as well. it doesn't get rid of the damage it just converts it to true damage and does it in a dot. an adc has to be able to keep auto attacking to take advantage of DD.

it's still very broken, but its not the most broken thing I've seen.

EedatJun 4, 20174 votes

I'm building it every game on every adc and it is legit cancer.

No you're not

As a matter of a fact, it looks like you never actually build it. Legit NEVER.

I don't understand the point of blatantly lying about something so easy to check.

VallalanJun 5, 20171 votes

https://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=Lucian%20Loves%20U

try ag ain. I've been playing on my lucian only account.

EedatJun 5, 20173 votes

48% winrate Lucian? Really not seeing how that is completely broken. You dont even build it every game on Lucian

I'm building it every game on every adc and it is legit cancer.

Not only do you not build it on Lucian 100%, but you NEVER build it on other ADCs like Trist and Ashe that you play.

Thanks for 100% confirming you were lying I guess.

VallalanJun 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

48% winrate Lucian? Really not seeing how that is completely broken. You dont even build it every game on Lucian

Not only do you not build it on Lucian 100%, but you NEVER build it on other ADCs like Trist and Ashe that you play.

Thanks for 100% confirming you were lying I guess.

i pretty much build it on lucian 100% of the time. very few instances where I don't. would rather me say 90% of the time.

as for trist/ashe/ any other adc, I'd also 100% prioritize on them too if I wasn't experimenting with other wonky builds. (ashe game recently you can't see but i rushed trinity force) and tristana game we got shit stomped in lane thanks to my sona so I had to build the best first item in the game for adcs (which is still bork)

if you want I can show you some clips of shit where I don't heavily outplay my opponents but live in situations I definitely shouldn't entirely thanks to death's dance.

and my win rate is something to take with a grain of salt. look at main account. plat 2 last season, gold 2 this season. as a solo player both times. I'm a tilt lord. I went from plat 2, 90 LP to like gold V, 0 LP in a week once. on this account supports have tilted the shit out of me in low elo.

not that i should have to explain any of that. you aren't looking for a discussion, you are looking for an argument. you want to be right and prove me wrong. which isn't going to go anywhere anyway. I have an opinion different than yours. and you call me a liar despite the fact that I literally showed you I'm building it on lucian in 6 of my last 7 games?

EedatJun 5, 20171 votes

i pretty much build it on lucian 100% of the time.

No you don't. You just linked your op.gg where you clearly dont. It's not even a matter of opinion at this point, you just straight up dont lol.

as for trist/ashe/ any other adc, I'd also 100% prioritize on them too if I wasn't experimenting with other wonky builds.

but again, you don't. You linked more PROOF that you dont.

I don't even understand this argument. You linked PROOF that what you're saying is a lie then continue saying its the truth?

if you want I can show you some clips of shit where I don't heavily outplay my opponents but live in situations I definitely shouldn't entirely thanks to death's dance.

Nobody give a damn about highlight reels. If highlght reels were good evidence then every single shitty clickbait youtube video would be true.

plat 2 last season, gold 2 this season.

So you're saying your build is so good that you fell an entire tier? Wut?

I'm a tilt lord. I went from plat 2, 90 LP to like gold V, 0 LP in a week

http://imgur.com/a/bFHb7

Nope.

you call me a liar despite the fact that I literally showed you I'm building it on lucian in 6 of my last 7 games?

No, I called you a liar because you straight up are lying. Legit lie after lie even when you post proof of yourself lying.

I'm building it every game on every adc

^you see this? This is a straight up, completely undeniable LIE which makes you a LIAR. I dont understand what part of this is difficult to grasp

VallalanJun 5, 20171 votes

I literally just started building it. I'm done arguing. the plat 2 to gold V tilt was LAST SEASON. jesus christ man. look at my rank last season before you talk shit op gg literally tells you that.

lmao, so i build it in MOST of my games. like any game where I can feasibly justify it which is most of the time. i dont know what to tell you.

im done arguing with you. you are a classic league player who just wants to be right about everything and cant stand someone to have an opinion different from yours. cy@ nerd.

dunder killJun 4, 20174 votes

Just played a game vs Draven Janna when Draven went DD first item. I was LB.

Could you imagine if the game was actually balanced around one person having a bad game? Not even saying DD isn't OP. Your logic of "WELL THIS ONE TIME DRAVEN GOT REALLY FED AND BOUGHT DD THEREFORE ITS BROKEN" is god awful

Fisher No ChainsJun 4, 20172 votes

I used my last game as an example. I've already seen DD as a problem in a lot of my games, since a lot of fighters/adcs are building it. This game was just a disgusting experience, so I decided to finally make a thread discussing DD's current state.

EssychuJun 4, 20173 votes

Stopped at "i was lb" .

"bullshit"

Fisher No ChainsJun 4, 20174 votes

At least you can kill LB once you catch her...

It's not the same with some ADCs nowadays.

ChaddyFantomeJun 4, 20173 votes

Yet again another item ruined because of ADCs.

JbelsJun 4, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Yet again another item ruined because of ADCs.

No, NO. You stop right there. ADCs don't ruin anything. Tanks ruin everything, and how dare you insinuate otherwise

NechroniaJun 4, 20171 votes

No, tanks have everything ruined for them because assassins and skirmishers can somehow use their items more effectively than they can.

JbelsJun 5, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Final Millenium,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QBpKdrjB,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2017-06-04T22:58:45.244+0000)

No, tanks have everything ruined for them because assassins and skirmishers can somehow use their items more effectively than they can.

Sorry man, sarcasm doesn't translate well in text

Chembaron YamadaJun 4, 20171 votes

Erm, you know that this item was specifically designed for marksmen, right?

NechroniaJun 4, 20172 votes

I am almost positive it was designed for fighters...

Chembaron YamadaJun 4, 20173 votes

The item got introduced in the marksmen update in 2016.

Look it up. DD got introduced under a list called "marksmen items". That item was specifically designed for caster marksmen.

That is the reason why it has CDR (more spellcasts) and heals for all normal damage dealt. Lifesteal from stuff like Bloodthirster is less effective for these marksmen, since alot of their damage comes from their abilites (examples: Varus, Jhin, Graves). It got designed alongside of Essence Reaver to provide fitting items for that playstyle.

I just love how people assume that every item in this game is created for melee and marksmen are just "abusing" everything.....

ChaddyFantomeJun 4, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Erm, you know that this item was specifically designed for marksmen, right?

Im aware, but it has since shifted to bruisers and Ad Casters long time now. Same way Black Cleaver was shifted towards juggernauts.

Colton147Jun 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Yet again another item ruined because of ADCs.

By going by your logic, champions, such as Yasuo, Tryndamere, etc. is ruining ADC items (crit/attack speed).

There is nothing wrong with ranged champions using whatever items they want (same with melee).

JbelsJun 4, 20172 votes

It's almost like taking away tankiness from tanks and giving it to damage dealers like Draven was a fucking stupid idea. What do I know though?

Fisher No ChainsJun 4, 20172 votes

It's almost like giving ADCs both defensive and offensive options in the same item makes them obnoxious as fuck.

Wait, isn't it fun to play vs Death's Dance, Phantom Dancer and GA every game?

I understand though, tanks item got """"buffed"""" (like 10 armor for 100 health loss rofl) so AD items like DD definitely needed that overbuff.

JbelsJun 4, 20172 votes

{quoted}

It's almost like giving ADCs both defensive and offensive options in the same item makes them obnoxious as fuck.

Wait, isn't it fun to play vs Death's Dance, Phantom Dancer and GA every game?

I understand though, tanks item got """"buffed"""" (like 10 armor for 100 health loss rofl) so AD items like DD definitely needed that overbuff.

I'm going to put this to bed right now. Taking away 100 health and adding 10 armor is still a huge net nerf because of how effective health works. Armor and MR provide a defensive multiplier, but that multiplier becomes less effective the less health you have.

If 50 armor gives you 25% damage reduction when you have 1000 health, and you take 400 physical damage from a source, that's 100 damage blocked, and you're left with 700 Health

If 60 armor gives you 28% damage reduction and you have 900 health, and you take 400 damage from a source, you block 122 damage and take a total of 288. That leaves you at 612 health. Yes, you blocked more damage, but at the end of the day, you had less health to spare.

I can't imagine Riot not knowing how their own game works. This was a deliberate nerf, the 10 armor added was done only to lessen the blow

Fisher No ChainsJun 4, 20171 votes

That's what I meant.

This whole tank update was just "3 tank reworks and marskmen update 2.0", since ADCs itemization was imo buffed a lot.

I don't get why AD items needed compensations for tanks' items changes. I mean, those changes were already a nerf, was it really necessary to reduce costs and buff AD and items' passives?

LordOfTheLeagueJun 4, 20172 votes

Dd damage reduction is ok, Life steal is not imo. Now that carries have access to more defense options, Life steal should be tuned down a lot.

waiting for WoWJun 4, 20171 votes

Because it's Draven and 3 kills on Draven can be more like 5-6 kills with the way his passive works as far as gold earned is concerned.

Fisher No ChainsJun 4, 20171 votes

The problem is not Draven (or, at least, not in this thread), the problem is that every AD champion is building that shit and can't die because of both DD and GA.

VoraciousXJun 4, 20171 votes

The issue is actually Draven moreso than the item. The item is by no means broken, but Draven abuses lifesteal because of his high damage, and Draven pretty much one shots people regardless if they're ahead of him after he gets an item or two. He might as well be a counter-assassin because he can one shot you before you can even get close enough to damage him. Draven is basically my permaban. Especially if I'm playing an assassin.

JedenVojakJun 4, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Just played a game vs Draven Janna when Draven went DD first item. I was LB.

Just saying, right now I'd like to uninstall this game.

Do it.

GeshultzJun 5, 20171 votes

Even then draven's winrate is above average at 52.8% with death's dance rush. http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/adc/platinum/by-winrate

Meaning he is strong and needs only minor nerfs at best. Like a small reduction in base ad to put him back to 50% or below.

Meanwhile toplane for Fiora

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/items/fiora/top/platinum

Builds it 3rd core item around 12% of games.

Riven basically the same situation as draven may be a strong, but can be fixed with minor nerfs. http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/items/riven/top/platinum

Is the item too strong in ADC role?

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/items/adc/platinum

6.5% pickrate with 55.4% winrate compared to bloodthirster with 8.9% pickrate and 60.3% winrate Not Overpowered for ADCs at all.

Next look top lane.

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/items/top/platinum

8.2% pickrate with 58.9% winrate compared to item 3074 pickrate of 10.1% and winrate of 56.5%

It only has a 2.5% higher winrate then Hyrda, which is lowered by a higher pickrate overall from all champions. So death's dance not overpowered here.

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/items/middle/platinum

Death's dance rarely is picked up in mid at 0.9% pickrate and 57.9% winrate

Overall verdict: Death's dance isn't overpowered or strong at all, but is slightly stronger or weaker depending on the role it is being used by and Has made 2 champions winrates go up to an area of being a bit too strong,but is easily fixable by minor nerfs.

*Note Copied over from other thread.

crzymdscntstJun 5, 20171 votes

item 3812 15% lifesteal on all physical damage (33% effectiveness for AoE), 30% of damage as bleed over 3 seconds. (70% damage) Over 3 seconds the player has that chance to regain some or all of the potential killing hit. item 3156 300+1 per MR shield when spell would reduce you below 30%; Lifeline - 10% spellvamp + lifesteal until out of combat item 3072 Lifesteal can overheal into a shield (50-350 based on level). (20% lifesteal)

item 3139 item 3071 item 3814 item 3026

There's a reason ADCs have a distinct issue with balance. They have a lot of contingency built into their items and the items synergize. +20% physical damage against targets with more health. item 3036 8% of targets current health as bonus physical damage on-hit. item 3153 (Lifesteal applied to bonus on-hit) 15% lifesteal on physical damage dealt. item 3812

Synergize this with a 345 shield (Maw) and 350 shield (Bloodthirster). That's about 700 bonus damage you have to hit through ON TOP of lifesteal. When you trigger Maw, there's more lifesteal AND they heal from spells. Healing reduction could definitely be more effective, but something tells me that it's this pairing of durability stats with sustain that's the problem.

I complain sometimes about how mages just aren't effective enough. This is why. Health (and pseudo-health via shields and restoration) is a counter to non-rapid-fire dps. (Basically nukes.) If you can't repeat quick enough and didn't one-shot them, there's a distinct fall-off point in the dps. Consider MR and health in themselves and how they directly counter a burst-caster. This entire issue is slightly compounded when the target is a juggernaut, because they can get more health and MR while still dishing out that dps.

I mean. I guess I'm just saying, yes, Death's Dance is bullcrap, but it's definitely a compounded issue when you add the other items. (And then some of that lifesteal in combo with crit.)

TargonJun 5, 20171 votes

I've seen Draven builds with item 3812 item 3031 item 3046 item 3072 item 3139 item 3006 that can heal for 600+ health @_@. With a build like this, he can become a massive late-game monster especially if he has a support like Lulu or Janna to protect/buff him.