So, veigar.... he's kind of a problem

AgeOfTheMage·Oct 18, 2017·5 votes·1,596 views

Every veigar post I've made has been downvoted but I'll keep trying. his kit, while yet his abilities are almost all skillshots, his passive is really strong. sure, he's immobile, but so are so many other champions. I'm not saying gut him, but change his scalings or his passive, My friend has been going tank veigar for a long time now and it's pretty disgusting. What are your thought's on veigar and his scalings/passive?

edit: I'm not saying he's op btw, I just really dislike fighting him and don't enjoy his kit.

25 Comments

ModThe DjinnOct 18, 20174 votes

I'm not convinced he's that problematic. He's got a slightly above average win-rate, but a number of very solid counters in a bunch of roles. Like Nasus, he's powerful if you let him be, but he's somewhat easy to outplay if you can get him to waste his stuncage, or simply jump on him immediately.

He's also solidly countered by some itemization, such as Zhonya's, Banshee's, Quicksilver Sash, etc.

He can, however, be SUPER frustrating to face when he's against a team that doesn't have the tools to deal with him.

AhrisOct 18, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QAWQVAEk,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-10-18T14:40:37.668+0000)

I'm not convinced he's that problematic. He's got a slightly above average win-rate, but a number of very solid counters in a bunch of roles. Like Nasus, he's powerful if you let him be, but he's somewhat easy to outplay if you can get him to waste his stuncage, or simply jump on him immediately.

He's also solidly countered by some itemization, such as Zhonya's, Banshee's, Quicksilver Sash, etc.

He can, however, be SUPER frustrating to face when he's against a team that doesn't have the tools to deal with him.

He counters many champ too though. It isnt fair how his early and mid isnt even weak when his lategame is just so strong.

ModThe DjinnOct 18, 20172 votes

{quoted}

He counters many champ too though. It isnt fair how his early and mid isnt even weak when his lategame is just so strong.

I'm still not convinced. If you look up his winrates, his high values are against atypical mids who have a lot of trouble closing against him -- people like Karma, Galio, Fiddlesticks, Lucian, and Ryze. The only "traditional" mids he has a weird outlier against is Yasuo...and I'm weirdly okay with that. SOMEONE needs to crush Yasuo. :P

Looking at match-ups it seems like he's a relatively solid mid against traditional mages, and super weak to non-dash-based assassins. I'm still not convinced that's an issue. His overall impact on games seems to have a relatively good trajectory from the data us players have access to.

AhrisOct 18, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QAWQVAEk,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2017-10-18T14:50:45.635+0000)

I'm still not convinced. If you look up his winrates, his high values are against atypical mids who have a lot of trouble closing against him -- people like Karma, Galio, Fiddlesticks, Lucian, and Ryze. The only "traditional" mids he has a weird outlier against is Yasuo...and I'm weirdly okay with that. SOMEONE needs to crush Yasuo. :P

Looking at match-ups it seems like he's a relatively solid mid against traditional mages, and super weak to non-dash-based assassins. I'm still not convinced that's an issue. His overall impact on games seems to have a relatively good trajectory from the data us players have access to.

Really? Ahri's lowest winrate is against Veigar if i remember correctly.

Edit: Wasnt the lowest, but still a big counter according to winrate.

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/na/platinum/plus/champion/Ahri/counters/

ModThe DjinnOct 18, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Really? Ahri's lowest winrate is against Veigar if i remember correctly.

Edit: Wasnt the lowest, but still a big counter according to winrate.

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/na/platinum/plus/champion/Ahri/counters/

Oh, yeah. She's a somewhat close range, dash-based mage with weaker harass than Veigar has. But just because he's strong against Ahri doesn't mean he's a huge balance issue.

AhrisOct 18, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QAWQVAEk,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-18T17:07:51.092+0000)

Oh, yeah. She's a somewhat close range, dash-based mage with weaker harass than Veigar has. But just because he's strong against Ahri doesn't mean he's a huge balance issue.

I do find him quite oppressive. Though others may consider him differently.

ModThe DjinnOct 18, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I do find him quite oppressive. Though others may consider him differently.

As someone who plays Ahri (I'm guessing), I can see that. I'd recommend picking someone who can simply zone him, burst him with impunity, or survive him -- Xerath, Vel'Kox, and Ziggs are great at harassing him down. Annie, Fizz, Zed, Katarina can all burst him down. Vladimir can just live at him and run him out of mana. Malzahar can wreck him by constant pressure and silences.

I won't argue he might be slightly overtuned (he's got most advantageous matchups than disadvantageous matchups), but he's down in 13th as far as winrate, and it's partly only that high because Ahri, Yasuo, and Ryze are in the top 16 most played champions, and he's very good against those three in particular (and decent against a few of the other top picks in terms of play %).

AhrisOct 18, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QAWQVAEk,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-18T17:31:00.063+0000)

As someone who plays Ahri (I'm guessing), I can see that. I'd recommend picking someone who can simply zone him, burst him with impunity, or survive him -- Xerath, Vel'Kox, and Ziggs are great at harassing him down. Annie, Fizz, Zed, Katarina can all burst him down. Vladimir can just live at him and run him out of mana. Malzahar can wreck him by constant pressure and silences.

I won't argue he might be slightly overtuned (he's got most advantageous matchups than disadvantageous matchups), but he's down in 13th as far as winrate, and it's partly only that high because Ahri, Yasuo, and Ryze are in the top 16 most played champions, and he's very good against those three in particular (and decent against a few of the other top picks in terms of play %).

I guess.

Kai GuyOct 18, 20171 votes

summoner 1 can be a game changer vs veigar. If your going to be running summoner 7 or summoner 21 it might be better to just run cleanse, your able to dodge more damage from his WQ mid to late game then the other two are capable of preventing, and if he trys to wombo to fast and blows his kit your liable to get out with him burning his ulti and possibly ignite (which cleanse removes as well.). Also it destroys his best tool for setting up ganks and team fights, its got 30 second faster CD then heal and the 65% tenacity is a real plus when trying to escape a gank imo.

Very Hard EngageOct 18, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QAWQVAEk,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-10-18T14:40:37.668+0000)

I'm not convinced he's that problematic. He's got a slightly above average win-rate, but a number of very solid counters in a bunch of roles. Like Nasus, he's powerful if you let him be, but he's somewhat easy to outplay if you can get him to waste his stuncage, or simply jump on him immediately.

He's also solidly countered by some itemization, such as Zhonya's, Banshee's, Quicksilver Sash, etc.

He can, however, be SUPER frustrating to face when he's against a team that doesn't have the tools to deal with him.

hear me out. the only reason he has a passable win rate atm is because of the sheer stats and numbers they had to grossly overinject into a failed kill.

mind you, release was 37% win rate and he saw nothing but buffs for 4 patches after his "dfg compensation" to be put back to 47%, what he already was.

a whole season later and change... with more buffs... did he finally break 50%.

the kit as is, is a failure, it needs a total overhaul from the ground up.

ModThe DjinnOct 18, 20171 votes

{quoted}here me out. the only reason he has a passable win rate atm is because of the sheer stats and numbers they had to grossly overinject into a failed kill.

the kit as is, is a failure, it needs a total overhaul from the ground up.

Eh. I'm not sold on that perspective. His kit is perhaps not the GREATEST, but I think it's functional. His passable win rate right now is, I think, most a combination of a lot of players not knowing how to shut him down quickly combined with the popularity of champions Veigar is very solid against being popular.

Very Hard EngageOct 18, 20171 votes

alright, do a direct comparison between veigar at 5.3 and current veigar.

observe the wall of text and layers of complexity they added. now observe the wildly lower cooldowns, mana costs, and higher damages which is compounded by 3x farming rate of what he used to have. (ap on assists did not exist)

veigar was at least simple and easy to use back then, very hit/miss and it was a niche role to fill, you either had the skill to land the stun or you found yourself dead.... to everything.

the most hampering thing was his stun range of a mere auto attacks range away. or 850 if you added to the diameter of the ring into the equation. leaving himself exposed to literally every other cc ability imaginable making veigar be aggressive or the one to initiate the fight. or to tag onto a team mates cc and secure the kills.

the whole reason veigar saw "dfg compensation" to begin with was to shut down his E as a support ability to stop hyper mobile champions (kalista) who were just added and prime in the LCS.

reminder, deathfire grasp was removed at the end of season 4. veigar went a whole half a season with a decent win rate of 47~48% in that time frame making the champion work anyway despite not having his prime damage ramp item. players found other ways to make him work. he didn't "need" the compensation back then, it was forced onto him with the intention of removing his stun off the planet, which they did.

SasogwaOct 18, 20173 votes

{quoted}

here me out. the only reason he has a passable win rate atm is because of the sheer stats and numbers they had to grossly overinject into a failed kill.

mind you, release was 37% win rate and he saw nothing but buffs for 4 patches after his "dfg compensation" to be put back to 47%, what he already was.

a whole season later and change... with more buffs... did he finally break 50%.

the kit as is, is a failure, it needs a total overhaul from the ground up.

https://media.giphy.com/media/1Z02vuppxP1Pa/giphy.gif

Veigar's rework killed his reliable burst mage identity because they wanted to inject unneeded counterplay (though veigar's counter patterns were extremely clear : abuse his very long cooldowns and high manacosts, abuse his weak laning and if you want to counterbuild, banshees or merctreads OP). They made him a telegraphed uncoherent kit that completely dumpstered his solo play potential in favour of a high-counterplay aka extremely team reliant kit. You can't kill anyone non retarded with veigar without the help of a teammate. You can't land E on the edge as they have all the time in the world to dodge it. So they just decided to buff every number they could possibly imagine (damage, cooldown, manacost) of this 35% winrate failure of a rework until it reached 50% and called it a day. Sad. Ok the only good changes they did was increase Q reliability (missile movespeed + range) and reduce E cast time by .25s i believe.

So now Veigar doesn't have problematic manacosts, doesn't have high cooldowns aka reliable windows of weakness, doesn't have reliable "don't get in range without MR or you die" impact, doesn't have his 'antimage' fantasy anymore. Also rip dfg. He doesn't have anything that made Veigar Veigar, except the infinite scaling, which I am at least grateful to Riot for keeping.

AgeOfTheMageOct 19, 20171 votes

I wouldn't mind seeing a veigar rework, It's kind of interesting to think of what they could turn him into. idk, I've always had a problem fighting veigar, I get he has weaknesses, like his immobility, and his W delay n all that. I just really don't like fighting against his stun or trying to maneuver around it. His ultimate... I dislike it, it's a ranged ability that can't miss has 100% ap scalings(correct me if i'm wrong) and increases damage with missing health. at some point's in the game it feels like you're not allowed to be at half health without the risk of getting deleted by his ult. I'm not saying he's 100% broken, I just really dislike fighting him.

BigBellBruteOct 18, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Every veigar post I've made has been downvoted

Oh. Far be it from me to break tradition. Ask and you shall receive. Have a downvote. Now upvote me for giving you a downvote like you wanted.

AgeOfTheMageOct 19, 20171 votes

Indeed I shall, here you go good sir.

AhrisOct 18, 20171 votes

I find him extremely oppressive and unfun to play against. I domt even know why he was buffed when he waa already fine.

ChiTenshiOct 18, 20171 votes

If he's ahead, I'm fine with him building Tank and doing Damage. If he simply reaches Late Game though, I feel it's a tad unfair.

I think Veigar needs his Passive tweaking so he isn't rewarded for simply poking the enemy. I know he gets stacks from last hitting minions, but the rest of his passive contributes too much for him doing so little.

PrimaquariusOct 18, 20171 votes

Veigar's scalings depend on his ability to CS and hit Champions with Q, plus hes only a threat after mid game much like Nasus.

BALDG1VEN BOOMEROct 18, 20171 votes

Buy QSS/ Dodge the cage, he’s useless

ChiTenshiOct 18, 20172 votes

I think they're talking about Veigar building Tank and doing Damage, not 'omg Veigar OP'.

BALDG1VEN BOOMEROct 18, 20171 votes

If that happens then the game clearly extended to 40+ mins which is when he's suppose to be strong.

Titanium70Oct 18, 20171 votes

the ting about Tank Veigar is his buildpath sinc eit doesnt matter what he builds frist it's always a problem.

A) He goes for Morello - congrats he is as tanky as caster minion. B) He goes for Armor/MR first - congrats he deal literally negative DMG and has no CDR. C) he goes for Rod - A scaling Champion building a scaling Item - well that a free won lane.

The only point where Tank Veigar works is lategame - and in late his kit falls off quite hard.

ShiznyteOct 18, 20171 votes

1 to 1 ratios on AoE skills with 2 second CD's, on a champion who has infinite AP scaling... This is where his problem lies... sure his ult is annoying but it hits one target. His W is doing more damage than ever and on a shorter CD than ever. Sure you can try to dodge it, but in a 5v5 team fight it is extremely hard to see that W with all the chaos around it. The recent changes to it made its CD waaaaay to short.