How deaths feel right now vs what they should feel like. (My opinion)

StealthyWolf52·Feb 1, 2016·168 votes·6,830 views

How a Death Should feel: "Well damn, I made a bad play (or they made a good play,etc.) resulting in my death. Well, Now that they have some gold and time to farm, position, or push lane, I should play a bit more careful, maybe we could, as a team, stop this from going anywhere or even take advantage of their killing me by taking other points."

How a death feels right now: "Welp, I died, they now have gold, farm, dragon, a turret so _all _ of their team has gold, they have the option to freeze lane, can complete another item, can roam to kill another lane, basically our chances of winning has diminished severely, and I have 5 seconds left to respawn..."

What do you think? Now, I know that there are a LOT of other factors resulting in this (Terrible turrets, snowball-y games, etc.) But I am just getting annoyed by the death timers. Deaths should be punishing, but not game defining by 15 minutes in game.

105 Comments

FancyKiwiFeb 1, 201673 votes

You forgot arguably the most important part of dying. All the XP you miss and all the XP they got from the kill. I've seen games where someone died pre 6, walks back to lane, the enemy hits 6 first and kills them again. They have two kills worth of XP on you and since they death timers are longer you miss more minions. You could potentially be three level down from dying those two times.

Teridax68Feb 1, 201618 votes

It might be worth seeing what would happen if kills no longer granted experience at all. Unlike gold, experience gains aren't really that immediately visible unless you level up, and as you mentioned the XP lead gained by farming is already more than enough to grant a level advantage in lane. If kills end up not making enough of a difference; it would always be possible to just ramp up the gold bounty (which would be much easier to appreciate) until they do.

A current problem with XP leads in lane is that they just encourage the winner to sit in lane and amass even more of a lead while giving the loser increasingly few options. Gold leads, on the other hand, can only be turned into actual power by going back to base and purchasing items, so without XP bounties from kills, players could still accrue a level lead by staying around and farming, but would also be pushed much more towards going back for items, thereby giving their opponent an opportunity to catch up or otherwise exploit their absence. In the interest of keeping relatively shorter games, it would also work out, since kill-heavy lanes could get more of an advantage from items and would be more able to make crucial swings either way.

NotClarkolasFeb 1, 20163 votes

Then don't die that second time. How is this confusing to people?

EndlessIsolationFeb 1, 20168 votes

{quoted}

Then don't die that second time. How is this confusing to people?

You die at level 4/5, you are against a Riven/Garen/Darius/graves etc (who have quite a large advantage if they are 6 and you arent, and have executes). You play safe when you come back into lane since you are a level down. wave starts to hit your tower, you go to take 1 cs, combo'd > executed > dead. You are now 2 levels behind, by the time you spawn you will be 3. Sometimes, it isn't possible to "not die the second time" unless they sit behind their SECOND turret.

JonxxFeb 1, 20163 votes

That's why you need to learn which cs you can take freely and which to give up and just leech xp. And also you should do nearby jungle camps whenever you have a chance. And one more thing is building properly, which means building some def stats if they can one shot you.

RatbertFeb 1, 20165 votes

Leech exp from your second turret? Building defensive stats just means you won't have any chance to comeback.

AuroramancerFeb 1, 20164 votes

He's saying that learning which CS you can take freely and which ones to give up will help to prevent your first death in the first place, so no, you won't have to leech exp from your second turret.

Also, building defensive stats is sometimes necessary. I see a lot of players who build straight damage, even after dying a lot, and then wonder why the enemy still blows them up. You don't have to build to the highest tier of a defensive item either. Buying a Null-Magic or Cloth Armor can be enough sometimes.

RatbertFeb 1, 20162 votes

He was replying to someone who was talking about after the first death. How can you say they were talking about preventing the first one?

Even then, sometimes that number you can safely get is 1 or 2, which means you'll be an item behind anyways. Which means you're screwed because they can push you to your turret and stick you there and unless you've a waveclear champ, you're missing cs.

Getting defensive items in lane makes it nearly impossible to catch up. It's usually not enough to offset your disadvantage as well.

AuroramancerFeb 1, 20162 votes

He was replying to someone who was talking about after the first death. How can you say they were talking about preventing the first one?

...because his advice applies to laning in general, not a specific circumstance (such as a first death). Picking and choosing which CS to vie over is an essential laning mechanic.

Even then, sometimes that number you can safely get is 1 or 2, which means you'll be an item behind anyways.

If you can only safely get 1 or 2 CS, then you're fucking up somewhere in laning.

Which means you're screwed because they can push you to your turret and stick you there and unless you've a waveclear champ, you're missing cs.

It's not hard to CS under tower. If you see that the wave is inevitably going to push you to your tower, prime the minion HP so that you can actually secure it. Just because you're under tower doesn't mean you can't CS or that you'll be "screwed". In many matchups, it's often advantageous to let your enemy push you under tower and farm there in safety, also allowing your jungler to have room to gank the enemy laner.

Getting defensive items in lane makes it nearly impossible to catch up. It's usually not enough to offset your disadvantage as well.

You also don't have to die in order to realize you may need defensive items. Playing any bruiser against a Vlad in the top lane almost always merits buying a Spectre's Cowl, even if you plan to buy damage. Again, you don't have to die in order to start buying defensive items, so there is no "nearly impossible to catch up" unless you are just making extremely terrible mistakes in lane.

RatbertFeb 2, 20162 votes

So he can't use a general statement to give advice for a specific situation?

It's called being zoned and/or melee. If you're a death behind, going for cs can be suicidal or very hard without losing lots of resources. Sorry for not being able to get the perfect 6 when behind.

How can you prime the minion hp without using mana or being in a dangerous range? If you let them push long enough, they'll get your turret. If they're good, they'll also ward.

I'm talking about after your first death, given the nature of this thread and what the guy before was talking about. Getting defensive early when behind means you've spent whatever gold you've got on defence, while your opponent is free to get offence. I exaggerated, but it'll be harder to farm and be useful in fights later on.

AuroramancerFeb 2, 20163 votes

So he can't use a general statement to give advice for a specific situation?

He's allowed to do that, but you're extrapolating a shit ton (first death = tower lost = enemy is automatically level 6, etc). Being the first death in a lane does not guarantee a lost tower, so when he says "pick and choose what minions you want to farm and leech exp", you extrapolated to say "leech exp from your 2nd tower?", which wasn't what he was saying at all. Pick and choose minions to farm and leech exp, so that you don't endanger yourself to die or lose HP on your tower.

It's called being zoned and/or melee. If you're a death behind, going for cs can be suicidal or very hard without losing lots of resources. Sorry for not being able to get the perfect 6 when behind.

Ranged top laners aren't all too common, and even when they are played, melee champs have more move speed and general tankiness. Sure, you may have to invest into sustain, but it doesn't mean you HAVE to let yourself die in lane when you're at a disadvantage. Being at a disadvantage does not mean you have lost the lane, and it doesn't necessarily mean that you were put at a disadvantage because of dying either. You can be put at a disadvantage without dying, in which case, playing safer is the right choice anyway.

How can you prime the minion hp without using mana or being in a dangerous range?

What are auto attacks? If you see melee minions at 3/4 HP (so after a tower shot, 1 auto attack won't kill them), just auto attack them once to prime them.

If it is dangerous for you to prime minions when the enemy is pushing your lane hard and spending their auto attacks/spells to push the lane, then you're fucking up somewhere in your lane mechanics.

If you let them push long enough, they'll get your turret.

But they also won't have a huge lead over you. If they aren't killing you, they aren't getting extra kill gold. If you are safe and farming effectively under tower, your enemy isn't getting a CS lead over you. And they are at greater risk to be ganked by pushing so hard. You also have FREE pressure on them to damage them and force them off tower, since they aren't likely to tower dive without a lead unless you've managed to let yourself get to 1/4 HP while they are still over 1/2 HP.

I'm talking about after your first death, given the nature of this thread and what the guy before was talking about.

And the very nature of the topic of "dying in League of Legends" has to do with the quality of decision making by players, which is what I'm talking about: decision-making that either leads to dying in-game or preventing deaths.

Getting defensive early when behind means you've spent whatever gold you've got on defense, while your opponent is free to get offence. I exaggerated, but it'll be harder to farm and be useful in fights later on.

Offense isn't everything. You don't see tanks building offense and being useful that way. Tanks are useful with defensive stats. Bruisers/fighters are useful with a mix of offense/defense.

If your final build has something along the likes of a Sterak's Gage or a Banshee's Veil, then getting Spectre's Cowl or Jaurim's Fist (defensive items) are not going to put you behind. And if you have to decide between Sterak's Gage or a Hydra item, and you've died at least once, buying that early defensive item component does not put you behind, because you're going to be getting it anyway and it helps you to stay alive longer in lane to get even more gold and exp.

JonxxFeb 2, 20161 votes

Dude, if you build a bit defensively they won't be able to kill you easily... Is it really that hard to understand? Also what second turret? If you built a bit defensively they won't be able to towerdive you = you can stay at first turret. Also if you've already died it means you've already fucked up. Versus good player you have no chance of coming back, only feeding them more if you still prefer to build damage. That's basics of playing from behind. And now go downvote me more, just because you're too thickheaded to understand my point.

RatbertFeb 3, 20161 votes

If you build more defense, and they build more offense, are you really that much tankier? Besides, it just means they're free to push you in and get free turrets. You built defense, so your pushing power is probably shit.

So if you die once, you're bound to be always on the defensive and have 0 chance of coming back. Wow what a great game where lanes are decided with one death. Better just never die in lane ever.

Do you happen to main early game stompers? Or are you playing games where first blood happens at 15?

Please, downvote me more, because I have just as many as you already and I can't downvote 3 times to put you at -2.

JonxxFeb 3, 20161 votes

You won't give up your statement, I won't give up mine. This discussion is pointless. Let's end this.

WarlockLawFeb 1, 20161 votes

This entirely, it's made worse if your opponent is running tp and you aren't. They kill you with level 2 then clear rest of wave and next wave, back with ~500 more gold than you died with then tp back. Now they're level 4 and your still 2. You can't fight back against that so now you miss another wave or two to zone or die

LeBlanc JameśFeb 1, 20164 votes

Why are you getting killed at lvl 2?

WarlockLawFeb 1, 20161 votes

Lots of reasons can go into this ranging from jungle gank to opponent hitting level two first and forcing a fight to thinking you could win but misjudging it by an auto.

LeBlanc JameśFeb 1, 20164 votes

I guess so. It's not something I find myself doing that often if ever. Maybe I'm too reserved.

WarlockLawFeb 1, 20161 votes

It doesn't happen to me too often, usually only when something catches me off guard, but it's so polarizing when it does. Any champion that gets first blood in under 3 minutes is going to win w/e match up they have without jg intervention

LeBlanc JameśFeb 1, 20162 votes

I guess you're right. When I play Zed and murder whoever I'm going against they usually can't catch up

SinlaireFeb 2, 20162 votes

Draven Riven Zyra Udyr

Solid lvl 2 champs. Alot of their ability to either dive, trade, or secure is picked up by lvl 2 and the 3rd ability can often be fluff or just a bonus.

LeBlanc JameśFeb 2, 20162 votes

I play a lot of Zyra. It would be difficult for her to kill someone at lvl 2. If you die to her that early, you have more important problems to tend to. However, Riven, Draven, and Udyr I can see.

SinlaireFeb 2, 20162 votes

undeniable. in terms of as a mid laner, no. you almost have to be brain dead to die to lvl 2 Zyra unless she locks you down for a gank. which is most of where her lvl 2 strength comes from there. She doesnt really need Q to kill you if she gets a lvl 2 gank. it just helps.

same for bot lane. She still doesnt really need lvl 2 to kill you as a support(or feed it to your ADC). all you need to do is lock them down for them to die.

So while Zyra cant really lvl 2 kill without help, she's great for HELPING at lvl 2 because she has all of her relevance all the way up to 6 BY 2.

LeBlanc JameśFeb 2, 20161 votes

Yes, I will agree. Also, at 6 she gains 1v1 killing power by a tremendous amount.

FantasySniperFeb 2, 20161 votes

Do you ever play in lanes?

LeBlanc JameśFeb 2, 20161 votes

That's all I play is in lanes. Main ADC and Sup and recently playing Mid.

FantasySniperFeb 3, 20161 votes

Then how do you not know about Lv 2 all-ins? Lv 2 ganks, too, they may be uncommon, but they still happen.

LeBlanc JameśFeb 3, 20161 votes

I never said I didn't know about lvl 2 all ins and lvl 2 ganks. That doesn't mean you die. Summoners are blown but death is not generally the outcome.

I have only made it to gold 3 so I'm not claiming to be good. However, I understand the dangers that are around me and try not to put myself in situations where I can be killed, especially at lvl 2. I know a lvl 2 Leona is going to try and kill me. I know a Blitz hook means death a lot of times. I'm aware so I don;t allow it.

shadecrapperFeb 2, 20161 votes

lvl 2 yolo tower dive duh

LeBlanc JameśFeb 2, 20161 votes

Oh yeah I forgot. [zombie-brand-facepalm]

Rew711Feb 2, 20161 votes

I actually felt this going Teemo vs Gnar. Was doing average at first, until Lee comes in and ganks, but Gnar still isn't as far as me so I try to push more, but hold back. The moment I get too far (i.e. near to middle) another gank. Well, I'm not about to let them kill me again. I go back and try once more by leaving shrooms everywhere.... Gnar goes mega Gnar and uses ever ability possible (so R + W + Q) and kills me. Gnar was unstoppable by then, and he was two levels above me. And that still didn't stop a three man gank top... :'( I pinged for help, but no one was able to make it top in time.

AVL PrinceFeb 1, 201627 votes

This is a problem with player attitude, not game design. It is, in practice, impossible to create a game in which people actively enjoy losing. It is simply a law of human nature to try and out preform other people, and our brains are designed to make us feel bad when we don't, so that when the next time rolls around (hopefully) we'll do better.

In all reality, the second case you have described here is the average game case. We tend to see, remember, and focus on the negative a lot more than positive - this is why people who have great attitudes and can keep team moral up tend to have higher winrates. Remember folks, a tilted team is a losing team.

SettDownShutUpFeb 1, 201623 votes

I dunno, I've had an insane amount of fun as a dead karthus.

StealthyWolf52Feb 1, 20164 votes

{quoted}

I dunno, I've had an insane amount of fun as a dead karthus.

Aatrox Anivia Karthus Sion Yorick Zilean item 3026 Dead, but not defeated...

My Desired NameFeb 1, 20168 votes

{quoted}

Dead, but not defeated...

Zac Zac Zac Zac Zac Zac Zac

StealthyWolf52Feb 1, 20164 votes

For 2 entire seasons (and then some) I have remained as positive as possible. I raged, got mad, flames, etc, but most of the time I was able to bounce back and be a bit more positive, even if my team didn't. That has become nearly impossible this season because when things look bad, its over, when things look good, its still bad...

SHlTBUGFeb 1, 201616 votes

Pointing out that the one guy who offers a differing opinion here in a reasonable manner gets downvoted. Just so you guys know, if you see a post that furthers the conversation in a reasonable way, it makes sense to upvote it even if you disagree.

RyzeReworkFeb 1, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Prince Rivera,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Q1P904cA,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-02-01T05:03:34.424+0000)

This is a problem with player attitude, not game design. It is, in practice, impossible to create a game in which people actively enjoy losing. It is simply a law of human nature to try and out preform other people, and our brains are designed to make us feel bad when we don't, so that when the next time rolls around (hopefully) we'll do better.

In all reality, the second case you have described here is the average game case. We tend to see, remember, and focus on the negative a lot more than positive - this is why people who have great attitudes and can keep team moral up tend to have higher winrates. Remember folks, a tilted team is a losing team.

I feel like your kind of right a out the whole people dont like losing but me personally if I get outplayed if my team gets rekt or anything like that I won't get visably mad. Its when that one person on the enemy team starts talking shit even if they are just saying my teams bad I will almost always tell them to fuck off I dont like people who put others down. The worst part its the guy whose like 1/7 on the enemy team talking shit while their 20/0 lucian is carrying him

The IllithidFeb 1, 20167 votes

I disagree that it is impossible to make a game where people enjoy losing. For some people, this is true because they are very competitive and no matter what the win is what is fun for them, knowing they are better than the other players.

I am many people like me I'm sure, aren't necessarily in it for the win. I play a ton of ARAM (when I play at all) because it is fun most of the time whether I win or lose. That is, with the exception of the games where my entire team is melee and they end up with 3+ poke champs. I have had a lot of fun in games that I lost as long as I felt I still had agency. If the game is back and forth, or really close then I still have a lot of fun. Even if the game is one sided, but I know that we are just one good teamfight away from being back in it, that can be fun. I think the problem is games where (and this is a blind-pick thing moreso than anything else), you hop in game and immediately see that your team has a 90% chance of losing and the entire game is just a slugfest with you as the punching bag for 20 minutes.

TNHA BaritoneFeb 1, 201610 votes

Death timers scale at 10 minutes now, if I am not mistaken.

Yeah, thats pretty bizarre.

StealthyWolf52Feb 1, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Death timers scale at 10 minutes now, if I am not mistaken.

Yeah, thats pretty bizarre.

My thoughts too, 15 mins was a bit early of a time to say and all, but 5 minutes to scale so much and have constant scaling is rediculous imo

WeatheredFeb 1, 201610 votes

It depends on ELO and if the person is really good at capitalizing death.

Fun math, a kill is worth about 15 cs. So when you die, the person gets 15 cs worth of gold, farms around 15 cs for more gold, and you miss out on around 15 cs and that gold. Essentially, a 45 cs worth of gold difference if the person is good at farming and pushes correctly.

LynXerfFeb 1, 20167 votes

{quoted}

It depends on ELO and if the person is really good at capitalizing death.

Fun math, a kill is worth about 15 cs. So when you die, the person gets 15 cs worth of gold, farms around 15 cs for more gold, and you miss out on around 15 cs and that gold. Essentially, a 45 cs worth of gold difference if the person is good at farming and pushes correctly.

That is incorrect, though. Say if you both have 30 cs, he kills you and gets 15 cs, he effectively has 60 cs and you have 30 cs. Just because you didn't get that 15 cs doesn't mean you LOSE 15 cs, it's just 15 cs you didn't get. The net difference is 30 cs not 45.

La BarbotteFeb 1, 20164 votes

at least we dont lose money when we die, since rito is recently ''inspired'' by HOTS and smite alot im wouldnt be surprised if this dota feature came to life on the rift -.-

FioraWillCarryFeb 2, 20162 votes

{quoted}

at least we dont lose money when we die, since rito is recently ''inspired'' by HOTS and smite alot im wouldnt be surprised if this dota feature came to life on the rift -.-

I got so much cancer even thinking that this could ever happen in LoL. [zombie-brand-mindblown]

SociopathFriendFeb 1, 20163 votes

The game has kind of always been like that though- my worst experience as a Support was when my ADC got caught in the jungle level 1 and died- by the time he respawned and came back to lane the enemy was level 3 and immediately killed his ass again the moment he went anywhere near the creepwave.

AuroramancerFeb 1, 20163 votes

So here's my quip on the issue.

Yeah, deaths feel more punishing now and games are decided much earlier. It feels bad to be on the receiving end of this.

HOWEVER...

Before the recent changes of preseason, good decision making in the early game felt moot. You weren't rewarded enough for good decisions, and the enemy team had too much of a grace period with their bad decisions. It felt fucking terrible to play flawlessly in the early game, but then have the grace period of the early game nullify or diminish your good decision making. Then late-game comes around and your team makes ONE bad decision (after consistently making good ones) and the other team just wins the game.

These changes are better than what was previous. Good decisions are rewarded, bad decisions are punished. That's the way it should be. If you play a shitty early game, the late game should not be as available to you.