Remove Blind. Keep Draft.

Oglaf··630 votes·15,095 views

Seriously, Blind is the worst type of game mode in the game. There's no Bans, no Role Selection no nothing. All there is are people arguing over Champs/positions, games being lost because some whiny brat didn't get his way and decided to feed/troll the game. Draft mode solved most of these issues, in every single way besides queue time was it a straight improvement over Blind.

it is like keeping your bow and arrows while throwing away the hunting rifle!

It is clearly superior!

[zombie-brand-mindblown]

EDIT: Seems a lot of people think I am calling for Blind to be removed out of the blue. I am not. In case you have missed it, on servers such as ENUE they have removed Normal Draft entirely, leaving only Blind as a non-ranked option. Riot plans on extending this to all servers eventually.

My argument is not that Blind should simply be removed, but if you are removing one of the two because the player base is too split up, Blind should be removed instead because of how Draft is an inherently superior way to structure and setup a game of LoL.

159 Comments

Popstar Ahri21 votes

what if I want a faster queue, and a more competitive experience? and try to learn how to deal with broken champs?

Oglaf12 votes

[{quoted}](name=Popstar Ahri,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Q14FzurX,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-11-08T22:07:17.467+0000)

what if I want a faster queue, and a more competitive experience? and try to learn how to deal with broken champs?

Removing Blind would mean faster Draft queues. So. Yeah.

Of course, ideally they shouldn't remove either of them. But if one simply _**has **_to get the axe, it should be Blind. It is just that much worse of a setup.

Popstar Ahri8 votes

ok so how does my one trick pony friend that only plays zed, while he has over 1 million mastery score, able to play draft? What about mirror matches?

And despite zed is sitting at 46% winrate, he still gets banned

VoidBorn138 votes

Maybe stop being a one trick and git gud?

They should expand their horizons.

Popstar Ahri4 votes

he dosent like other champs, because he dislikes how they look and don't like how they arent cool and edgy, nor is their kit apealing to him. And im sure everyone else as their own reasons

"and git gud" while he was plat V last season, he at least knew about almost all the heroes kit

And you have any idea how long queue times are for draft are? No one plays support, and thats the problem, blind at least you get so much chances of being able to get someone to fill the role. And it only takes mins. Draft is so focused and favorite towards mid laners.

I don't think removing blind pick will "solve" anything, but more hate havoc going on.

This is him btw

http://i.imgur.com/gC9Y2bz.png

CookyPrince2 votes

so does he just dodge when zed is banned?

Maiziea1 votes

They said he plays blind pick. It was their argument for it to stay.

CookyPrince4 votes

how do you get plat if you only play blind

Ha1man4 votes

And you have any idea how long queue times are for draft are?

1-2 min unless you are support, then instantly

No one plays support

Nice joke. BTW, if the support role is so problematic, maybe Riot should look into it for a large scale gameplay rework instead of using work-arounds like queues that pigeon hole you into playing one regardless? Maybe we don't need a support and the jungle should be extended to provide two junglers per team with something to do? Maybe the game should be played 4v4? Why are we sweeping the trash under the rug?

Draft is so focused and favorite towards mid laners.

What? Why? Draft is the way the game is intended to be played - as a STRATEGY, where your decisions in picks, bans and team comp matter. Blind is just a team deathmatch where everybody is chasing kills and you can randomly counterpick yourself since you have no clue about the matchup.

You know, there are other people than one tricks who actually play a roster of champions and enjoy making meaningful choices. If I wanted to play TDM, I'd go play Quake.

Dextix LT3 votes

And i have no fucks to give. If he can't play more than one champ, that is HIS problem. And times for draft are not long at all. They are like 4-5 minutes. Which is really fast.

I don't care, keep blind pick. But DON'T remove normal drafts, because unlike your one trick idiot i want to play and practice more than 1 champ for ranked!

Divine Irelia11 votes

Yes because your one specific friend is more important than all the people who prefer draft

redniwediS17 votes

I was planning to play more ranked next season... Looks like I might only be playing ranked.

#NeverBlind

Oglaf5 votes

{quoted}

I was planning to play more ranked next season... Looks like I might only be playing ranked.

#NeverBlind

I think NA gets to keep Draft though.

Not sure, but I do know that not all servers are affected (which makes the decision even more bizarre, IMO).

Leetri2 votes

It's because the other servers don't have as many players. Some servers didn't have Dominion and some servers right now don't even have Twisted Treeline.

Diamond Key12 votes

Funny thing is EUNE is almost as large as NA but it still got removed here. And even funnier thing is I have never seen someone who regularly plays Blind Pick over Draft Pick here either

Oglaf3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Diamond Key1,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Q14FzurX,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-09T16:21:09.670+0000)

Funny thing is EUNE is almost as large as NA but it still got removed here. And even funnier thing is I have never seen someone who regularly plays Blind Pick over Draft Pick here either

EUNE is and has always been considered trash by Riot. Second class EU server. Remember the outrage when they bundled Scandinavia with the East despite us having more in common with the EUW countries?

I member and I'm still salty over it. Germany is EUW, Sweden/Danmark/Norway isn't.

[zombie-brand-clap]

MiksaMV2 votes

It is about server capacity and server scaling. Not about pure geographical reasoning. Germany has most probably way more players than Sweden, Denmark, Norway and Finnland together. Let alone France (....) and Spain.

Imagine you want to move to a new home and have only one big box. You realize you can't put the kitchen stuff (EU West) and the living room stuff (EUNE) in that one box. So you get another box. Now you put Kitchen Stuff to Box A and Living Stuff to Box B. Now the EUWest Box is almost full, EUNE box still has plenty of room. So what to put there? The stuff from the bedroom (Sweden), the clothing (Denmark), the cat's litter box and pet toys (Norway) fits perfectly in the EUNA box, so it goes in there. This way the server slots were filled up.

Also, "NorthEast" is self-explaining. If Germany is "NorthEast" to you your map is pre-WWII.

Now with all the server transfers, we got a lot of Turkish feeders, too, but I am sure not millions of players have migrated to EU West.

Fondling Gems1 votes

Actually it is due to the fact that most other servers just don't play enough Draft to merit keeping it. It is like ascension, Except if a couple servers actually played it a lot. It just isn't cost effective for the number of people who play it, so it is better for them to refocus everyone who has to maintain it and let it die out in areas that don't use it.

EUNE just doesn't play much draft pick, so they got rid of it.

Diamond Key11 votes

To me that seems quite stalinistic approach to problems. Oh well just like Stalin said "No man, No problem"

Fondling Gems5 votes

It comes down to reason. Riot can't do everything, and the more queues they have up the longer it takes to find games, the more it costs them, and the harder it is to fix issues. That is why they don't have every gamemode always up. It isn't that it isn't possible, because they can afford to do it, but queues would stagnate, the already long queue times would skyrocket, due to queue times skyrocketing people would grow bored and leave. As people left queue times would rise even more, resulting in more of the same.

I watched the same thing happen in Tribes Ascend, a really fun and unique game, that had so many queues as well as the ability to host your own games that Queue times went from roughly 1-2 minutes to half an hour plus if you were lucky.

A game like LoL just can't feasibly exist if it can't keep queue times down, and if it comes down to making a small minority sad, in order to benefit the vast majority, then choices have to be made. In an ideal world they would keep both queues up, but the fact is that this isn't an ideal world. Choices aren't always easy, and rarely lack consequences. Decision making is about choosing the path that does the most good, and the least bad, not the one that does no bad, because that path just doesn't exist.

If removing Draft pick would sadden 1/10th of a player base in EUNE and cause some of them to leave, but it would make half of the player base happier and keep them in the game, then it comes down to choosing the decision that hurts 1/10th of the player base, or half the player base. Sometimes not doing anything can be worse than making changes, even if the decisions are hard ones.

NA is different due to the number of people that play Draft, unlike most other regions. Removing it here would hurt a very large chunk of the player base, and as such the good it would do might not outscale the bad.


I think it just comes down to Riot isn't saying "No man, no problem." They are saying "We will do what is best for the many, not what is best for the few."

Keep in mind that next season is introducing even more queues, which will slow down times. I am guessing these changes are preemptive preparation for that.

Diamond Key11 votes

I think Tribes Ascend died to lack of developer interest because Hi-Rez wanted to milk the MOBA hype train but that is besides the point.

And about the queue times on EUNE I think the only time the queue times spiked over three minutes on average for me was when MYMU (or somewhere around there) came they suddenly went from 3 minutes on average to 20. But they came back down about month after the update (I have no idea what happened there)

And I do not know about the percentages of players who regularly play Draft Pick on each server but I do know that around half of the player base do not play on NA, EUW or BR. And I have to tell you it does not feel good to not be able to play a gamemode because I decided to choose this particular server or not having any choise like the asians.

But I do not know man. This just feels bad overall. Even the desire from Riot to remove from all regions feels even worse.

Fondling Gems2 votes

MYMU queue spike would have been due to everyone wanting to play mid, slowing down queue times. Adding more ranked queues like they are doing is going to achieve a similar result although because of the number of players in each queue are going to be reduced rather than the number of players in positions being reduced while the mid lane position skyrocketed.

I also totally agree that it feels bad. It isn't that I like their decision, but I do understand why they are doing and it does make sense. People saying that Blind should be removed and Draft should be kept are making less sense as in the regions Draft was removed in more people apparently play Blind than Draft. Perhaps in N/A they will remove Blind instead if they really feel the need to remove a queue, but everyone here is calling for the removal of Blind without understanding why a queue needs to be removed or knowing the statistics of who plays what like Riot does.

As someone who works in game programming I just do what I can to explain why these kinds of decisions are made and try to help people see the reasoning behind them.

Oglaf2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Diamond Key1,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Q14FzurX,comment-id=00040000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-09T18:35:11.375+0000)

But I do not know man. This just feels bad overall. Even the desire from Riot to remove from all regions feels even worse.

Indeed. I just don't see why the need to mess with it at all.

ModCaptainMårvelous9 votes

And here is a classic example of someone who doesn't understand League's playerbase.

The reason they're not removing it is because a majority of the people queue up for it. League's predominant playerbase is casual and you have to accept that. They don't care about bans, picks, whatever. They play what they want with their friends and don't care. Removing blind pick would be business suicide for RIot and drive off far more players than ANY draft mode being removed.

nice table8 votes

i cant bother dealing with picks, bans, enemy team comps, counter picks and tryharding while playing normals so fk off trying to remove blind pick.

OctoberIV8 votes

Blind pick players vastly outnumber normal draft players. Blind is 1000x better than draft ever will be and the queue times obviously prove this. Riot is not going to say fuck you to the majority and just shove people in draft because "xd people arguing over roles xddd" then just fucking dodge. Removing blind would be a complete autistic decision. Even if you did remove blind the queue would still be atrocious cause nobody wants to play shitty ass support

Oglaf5 votes

I mean, if the problem was long queue times in Draft, removing Blind would shift quite a lot of players who still want to play Normals into Draft, right? And since Draft enforces a pretty strict code-of-conduct when it comes to things like Role Selection it would also eventually decrease the toxicity of Normals as a whole (as people, if they want to play Normals, would need to accept the Ranked/Draft type of game setup as opposed to the wild west that is Blind).

Seriously, why not just remove Blind and keep Draft?

DrCyanide13 votes

They can't remove Blind Pick without making changes elsewhere. They can however remove Normal Draft with no changes what so ever.

Draft mode is going to require 20 available champions, the free rotation is 10 champions. New players would be unable to do PVP modes until they bought 10 champions, potentially more depending on if the few week rotation overlaps with their champion pool. Compare that to the 0 owned champions required now for Blind Pick PVP. Considering some of the champions new players are introduced to are 6300 IP (such as Jinx) new players are going to want to save up IP for the expensive champs, not just buy the cheapest champions they can. I've been playing for years and I still don't own all the 450 IP champions, simply because I don't care to pick them up.

In addition to champions, you'd have smurfs dodging because they didn't get the pub stomp role they wanted, increasing queue times dramatically. That is, unless you want level 5 players playing with level 30s in Normal Draft.

Then you add things like new champion releases, where you're about 3 times more likely to be able to play the champion in Blind Pick than you are in Draft, due to them not being bannable and both teams being able to pick them.


Personally, Blind Pick is my favorite queue. I just sit back, clarify who called what role first (if it's even needed, most of the time it's not) and fill. People over exaggerate Blind Picks flaws wildly. Most people who can only play one position already moved onto Draft Pick, meaning very few people fight over roles.

EndlessSorcerer7 votes

Draft mode is going to require 20 available champions, the free rotation is 10 champions. New players would be unable to do PVP modes until they bought 10 champions, potentially more depending on if the few week rotation overlaps with their champion pool.

Honestly, this can be easily solved by unlocking all 450 IP champions for new players and removing them from the free rotation.

I'm honestly surprised they haven't already considering how many champions there are.

Gelmous5 votes

No, stupidest idea ever

CorruptedScythe5 votes

Delete blind and draft. Replace with Teambuilder. It's better than both. Easy.

Ale non è male2 votes

{quoted}

Delete blind and draft. Replace with Teambuilder. It's better than both. Easy.

Nope I don't want to choose between forcedly playing support and long queue times not only in ranked but also in normals (and I like playing supports and at this point I am basically support main as I tend to fill almost alway whether it's normal or ranked)

Blind HAS to stay. I don't care about Normal Draft, Teambuilder or whatever if they stay or not, but say that Blind has to go is dumb

Once New Champ Selection has been introduced (and now they are even outting the exclude less preferred role option), Blind is the only 5vs5 experience which is somewhat really different from ranked (Normal Draft is a ranked experience without rank, and Teambuilder had intrinsec queue timers problems as people were not just happy of having their role and preferred champ secured, but also kicked players out of room if they didn't like what they saw and they abused the f**k out of this)

Hinagiku332 votes

Teambuilder has some serious flaws.

You could pick the champ you wanted, and select a position, but then you had to wait and hope for a team that actually wanted your champ. Queue times could be super long even at low levels. And if you tried to a play a "non Meta" champion - or just a champ in a non-conventional position - they would boot you back to the queue to wait for another team.

Queue times over an hour long were reported regularly at some levels.

GULAG 4 U4 votes

I like 20 seconds Q time and being able to play yi mid without people raging

FCJAAAAGOOOO3 votes

I mean, one could reason that some people that don't play ranked (or played s1) don't care about roles.

Jax the Stampede3 votes

There are multiple situations where one would want a bow and arrow over a rifle. One example among the many is if you need to kill something but do so in silence. Good luck being stealthy shooting off a rifle. You can also potentially get your arrows back. Arrows can also be coated with things so lethal wounds aren't your only option for subduing something. Considering that blind pick is really the only way for actual new players to get into a game without the stresses of picking a role that they don't know what the main necessities of are, having to pick a ban, then having to pick their champ while seeing what they're against. For experienced players this doesn't really matter. For someone new having to decide between top, jun (because they won't know that they need the smite that they don't have so they'll pick jun too), adc, support, and mid that's a very daunting choice to make, where blind pick allows them to just go straight into a game without the stress of making pregame choices so they can just go enjoy themselves and familiarize with the game. The issue isn't blind pick, the issue tryhards queing up for blind pick.

TwoHeadedFreak2 votes

Every game I've played with new players in blind pick [only have blind pick on oce :( ] you always get 2 or more that lock-in without calling at all, total confusion on who's going where and you end up with Yi adc, Lee support and Janna jg - yes, I have seen that happen. The toxicity from not being the fastest on ctrl + v is crazy. Last night I had a game where I missed my role, then I missed the next one (no choice after that, only one left) and ended up with little time to pick a champ and chose one out of panic that I hadn't played in ages and sucked big time. Blind pick MUST have role selection, it's the only solution if Riot don't axe it.

Jax the Stampede3 votes

Let me get this straight? You go into blind pick with new players, they pick something super off meta and not preferable because they don't really know better, then you complain that they start off with rookie knowledge? Shit dude, when I first started I took Xin bot every game and had no idea that I shouldn't have been doing that. New people are just wanting to play. They don't care about meta and who goes where and what role does what. They shouldn't be expected to have that kind of knowledge. There is a lot of game knowledge to goes into a draft que pregame lobby, a lot of knowledge that new players both wouldn't understand and would find extremely stressful. Stop thinking from only your point of view. I bet your the kind of guy who takes the last piece of candy rather than let the little kid have it aren't you? Remember the part where I said the issue is with tryhards in ranked? Well, only tryhards would complain about a new player doing new player stuff. You strike me as the kind of guy who makes a smurf then berates your teammates for not being league gods on their 5th game of league ever. That mentality is more toxic than blind pick could ever possibly be.

TwoHeadedFreak1 votes

Um, you missed the point. New players, lock in without calling, coz they forget or don't know and they simply pick the champ for the role they wanted and don't get that role - quite often they feel bad about it too - so it'd be nice not to make them feel like crap. There is zero guidance from the game it self on what to do or where they are going. I don't care if they pick off-meta, fact is they have no idea about what they're doing and blind pick simply does not help. I use to be in the same boat, I remember that, so i don't get upset, but not everyone is as tolerant - wouldn't it be better for those new players if they had some guidance from the game - as in choose a lane before queuing. get bot lane and go Xin all you like, I don't care, just so long as that is what you wanted to do.

Please don't ass-u-me you know me, you don't and your ass-umptions couldn't be more wrong.

Jax the Stampede1 votes

Nah, homie. You have this shit all kinds of twisted. You get on here complaining about new players doing things wrong. About the off-meta picks, and the fact that you feel like they let you down. The fact that you are bashing new players in your post is blatantly obvious not only to me, but to virtually anyone else who reads it. I'm not a fool who buys into people's bs. You can't just tread backwards once someone calls you out and try to act like you said something different. I'm neither a new player, nor am I new to life. I've seen plenty of your kind in both of those respects. As for the role selection, no, it should not have that. Not in regards to new players. Here, I'll use skateboarding as an example as I used to try to skateboard and was never any good at it so I definitely know a noobs perspective of that. You can't just put someone on a skateboard and then ask what trick they want to learn. Even if they actually do have something they know they want to learn (most will have no idea what the options they are given are and what to do with them) they still will pick something far above their skill bracket. You teach them to push off, and then let them ride around for a while. Once they know how to not fall down, then you can teach them how to stay standing the fancy way. Hell, they even teach math that way. You start with addition, let the kids practice it, then you bring subtraction into it, then let them practice it, so forth. You seem to have it in your head that the roles are what new players are focused on because that's a focus that a player who isn't new would have. Someone who is new is more concerned with actually hitting the Q at the right time and managing to land the skillshot, they're concerned with figuring out how to get gold faster and how to last hit, when to go at dragon, what dragon even does, baron, how to utilize a baron buff, when to roam, what roaming is, what the other teams champs can do, and above more than that, a new player is concerned with the good time of discovering matchups they've never experienced because this is all new to them. Now stop trying to take the last piece of candy for yourself. As for the assumption comments, I'm not assuming, I already ahve the kind of person you are pegged. Hell, most people who read your comments will have you pegged too. You aren't quite as unique and unpredictable as you would like to have yourself believe.

Jax the Stampede1 votes

Is there anything else I can clear up for you while I'm here?

TwoHeadedFreak1 votes

Wow, You seriously need to chill. Stop making stuff up and stop making assumptions, you obviously don't know and have maybe I didn't communicate very well before, but your accusation are all false. Please just stop, you are the one being toxic here.

BTW - when teaching someone something, you give the guidance, blind pick does none of that - that is my whole point, I was never having a go at new players. Blind pick is toxic, that is all i was trying to say. Maybe I was tilted when I posted, so I didn't communicate very well.

Jax the Stampede1 votes

No, you were wrong, and speaking out of turn. That is all. That is final.

TwoHeadedFreak1 votes

Funny how you talk about yourself like that. You know I'm right which is why you could only come up with that post. No where did I abuse anyone - as opposed to you, you made up all this stuff about me without meeting ,me, knowing me at all - all wrong. Get off your high horse.

Ale non è male3 votes

Nope. Blind serve much better purposes than what Normal Draft does after the new Champ Spelect was intorduced in S6. Blind allows people to hop fast in games and to try champions they have never/rarely played or to try strange things as build/roles (which does not means trolling, if someone is using this excuse to not try at all in normal but to troll in blind he is an a**hole and deserve to be reported).

Normal Draft has to stay where it makes sense because of manageable queue timers, and they better let it live as RGM or limited to only few days/week for those servers when they don't have the population to sustain it every day

YoungFarmer2 votes

Why not keep both, sometimes I don't feel like waiting 5 minutes in a normal queue, and then waiting through champ select just to have someone dodge and have to go through it all over. I personally like blind.

EpikFeeder2 votes

Normal draft and ranked are the same thing. LITERALLY. I dont understand why people are trying to keep 2 modes that are the same and removing the 3rd which offers a unique option.....

Bârd2 votes

Removing blind pick doesn't work, it screws over new players, leaving ONLY draft pick, which means that until you have at least 16 champions, you will unable to play summoners rift pvp.

Not something rito (or anyone joining lol with some gaming experience) wants.

He4rtkiller2 votes

I play Normal draft more then anything else in this game. High queue times are annoying sometimes but I would almost always chose higher queue time with option to select select position i want to play before low queue time and to have to fight for the position i want or to get stuck with something i do not enjoy playing or even worse to get people trolling because they didn't get what they wanted. Normal draft needs to stay! Make it work RIot! Better remove blind and keep draft!

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