So... You're fine with how Rengar is now, Riot?

Oglaf·Nov 21, 2016·113 votes·15,357 views

30%/42% bonus AD not a bit too much? No adjustment to him other than a bugfix this patch?

Allow me to scoff as I sadly don't get to remove him from my perma-ban list....

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

172 Comments

UnpaladinNov 21, 201649 votes

Riot needs him to test their new 10-ban system :^)

S H A Y C 0Nov 22, 20166 votes

speaking of which...WHERE THE HELL IS IT?!?!?![slayer-jinx-unamused]

RiotNot SurrenderingNov 22, 201628 votes

Rengar changes targeted at his passive, (giving him more flat damage and less % bonus) incoming for 6.24.

Tundra FizzNov 22, 20167 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fizz Enthusiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8wqKEAbU,comment-id=0026,timestamp=2016-11-22T22:57:57.950+0000)

Rengar changes targeted at his passive, (giving him more flat damage and less % bonus) incoming for 6.24.

Wow nice name Fizz

TyrekGoldenspearNov 22, 20164 votes

Lol name fits. Thanks for FEK btw! Awesome work on your part!

EedatNov 22, 20164 votes

That still wont solve the problem. You said you were trying to give his opponents a window of opportunity for counterplay. As he sits now, he still deletes people in half a second but now he has a built in QSS so you cant even stop him. What exactly are you supposed to do to an assassin that you cant even CC?

TotalJerkNov 22, 201615 votes

Less AD will definitely make it harder to "delete people in half a second". Also, if Rengar uses an empowered W that means he's not using an empowered Q or E, reducing his burst.

Sraeg2013Nov 22, 20161 votes

He was getting no bonus AD for years and he was still one-shotting people in half a second.

TotalJerkNov 22, 20167 votes

his kit was also different for years, so that's hardly a point.

RiotNot SurrenderingNov 23, 20167 votes

{quoted}

That still wont solve the problem. You said you were trying to give his opponents a window of opportunity for counterplay. As he sits now, he still deletes people in half a second but now he has a built in QSS so you cant even stop him. What exactly are you supposed to do to an assassin that you cant even CC?

When Rengar snowballs, this makes it less likely that he can kill someone and use empowered W to escape (he will still be able to do it if he gets super fed), but it will happen less often.

It's still true he has a lot of up front burst, but if this doesn't kill you instantly, there is play against it.

Teridax68Nov 23, 20167 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fizz Enthusiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8wqKEAbU,comment-id=002600030003,timestamp=2016-11-23T01:07:59.755+0000)

It's still true he has a lot of up front burst, but if this doesn't kill you instantly, there is play against it.

Okay, sure, but "if he doesn't kill you instantly" is a big if. By mostly keeping Rengar's upfront burst on top of his pretty reliable target access, he's more likely than most other assassins to kill targets before they can react, which is the main reason why players were complaining about Rengar in the first place. His core problems pre-rework were his ability to delete squishies with little counterplay and snowball hard into either a win or a loss; his changes don't seem to have fully addressed either issue.

Hyrum GraffNov 23, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Okay, sure, but "if he doesn't kill you instantly" is a big if. By mostly keeping Rengar's upfront burst on top of his pretty reliable target access, he's more likely than most other assassins to kill targets before they can react, which is the main reason why players were complaining about Rengar in the first place. His core problems pre-rework were his ability to delete squishies with little counterplay and snowball hard into either a win or a loss; his changes don't seem to have fully addressed either issue.

With the ult changes, his target selection is a lot worse.

Cosmic WarperNov 23, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8wqKEAbU,comment-id=00260003000300020000,timestamp=2016-11-23T05:17:57.551+0000)

With the ult changes, his target selection is a lot worse.

Past midgame. Early to midgame it's around the same because most players dont group up that early. It's a lot harder to gank bot, but his solo lane ganking is still fine that those stages.

Teridax68Nov 23, 20164 votes

It's certainly less reliable than his initial invisibility ult, but at the same time, his detection range is shorter than his leap range, so unless you're planning on charging straight through the enemy frontline, you're still going to be mostly invisible. The significantly increased duration does add a lot more reliability elsewhere, too, since it means Rengar can initiate from significantly farther away and stay undetected for longer, and thereby take the time to flank his target. Even with the increased likelihood of detection, though, the bottom line is that Rengar still has a near-guaranteed way of putting himself in melee range of his target, and when combined with very front-loaded burst, means that the latter doesn't have that many options to deal with him if he gets a lead.

Mr Titty TwisterNov 21, 20169 votes

He seem's weaker before but much more versatile. Has a lot more options now.

HazyCloud7Nov 22, 20169 votes

Even worse: the updated assassins to extend their burst window and new Rengar is still fully capable of 100-0ing someone in a fraction of a second.

The fact that this is still a thing while new Akali sometimes needs 2 rotations to kill people and new LeBlanc takes ~2-3 seconds is really a joke.

NuparuNov 22, 20164 votes

They've already come out and said this is fine.

Also, most AD "Bruisers" can go assassin build and do the same thing.

See: Wukong, Jarvan IV

HazyCloud7Nov 22, 20163 votes

Definitely doesn't make sense considering they significantly extend the burst window of most of other assassins. Where did they say are are fine with Rengar one shotting people in a ~half a second?

GayFluffyUnicornNov 22, 20165 votes

Can't cite the source right now but i've read it in another thread that riot actually wrote it is okay that rengar kills players so fast.

Sahn UzalNov 22, 20169 votes

Rengars burst window used to be about 0.25 seconds. The rework was meant to increase it to about 0.5 seconds. They reached that goal.

NuparuNov 22, 20163 votes

Honestly, if they only had intent to extend burst windows, then a lot of characters would have seen changes including Rengar.

Diana, Eve, etc. LB and Talon saw significant changes because, well, both had other more pressing issues. (LB being basically unpeelable and having an extremely clean escape route for her 100-0 anyways, Talon relying on a gimmick stealth in order to do anything because his kit damage was fucked up and even more binary than old Rengar where he'd either instakill your entire backline in the blink of an eye or do absolutely nothing.)

There's a reason they removed his double AA reset + massive AS steroid (they want him to rely on abilities, not just critting everyone until they all die), the team vision he used to get on ultimate (because why not) and then added an indicator that now appears from 2000/3000/4000 range versus a 1450 range indicator.

I think if Riot simply wanted to reduce Rengar's damage to the point where he can't reliably kill someone they'd have had to break his numbers even further in some other aspect (lol, bola duration xD) or he'd end up like Talon, relying on some ridiculous chain of events where either he accomplishes next to nothing or you just kinda watch yourself die from half health.

But it seems as if they wanted to add more reliability towards avoiding him versus outplaying him.

Also, the other person who posted about a source is right - I need some time to actually find the source because I have to head to class.

SevixysNov 22, 20161 votes

Play Poppy , be perfectly k.

ForFoxSakesNov 22, 20162 votes

How fucked up is that?

If you aren't this champ then you're dead because there's no other reliable counter

khorneyNov 21, 20166 votes

gee can u hear yourself talk..... old renagr was feast or famine.... new renagr is relevant all stages of the game. his q now does like 1/5th of what hsi old q did damage wise not sure how this makes him op

BakedLotionNov 21, 201643 votes

{quoted}

gee can u hear yourself talk..... old renagr was feast or famine.... new renagr is relevant all stages of the game. his q now does like 1/5th of what hsi old q did damage wise not sure how this makes him op

wat his new Q is WAY stronger than his old one wat are u smoking His old Q was just a glorified auto attack

khorneyNov 21, 20164 votes

look at his old q then talk. not to mention u could double q becuase of stacks ..... wtf are u smoking. 150 base plus 150% ad.... compared to what now no where nearly as strong .... lol

WarlockLawNov 22, 201621 votes

150 + 150% AD vs 240 + 140% bonus AD. Considering new Rengar has significantly higher AD totals I'd wager the new Q deals more damage most of the time as long as you hit both damage procs. His new empowered Q deals 120-392 + 240% bonus AD on each hit. Then you start to consider that his new Q can hit multiple champions and suddenly Rengar's new Q allows him to work in teamfights well too.

AthenasVendettaNov 21, 20165 votes

Rengar isn't op... Just everyone is picking things that assassins love to kill.

Very Hard EngageNov 21, 20162 votes

i will literally pick up rammus 100% of my games if it gives me the edge.

the unfortunate truth is rengar one shots with just the leap alone through a level 18 mage w/ just zhonyas.

rengar easily jumps and full combos a "tank mage" no sweat (with all targeted / point blank cant miss abilities ) full ad rengar > item 3027 item 3157 item 3116 item 3151 no sweat.

the guaranteed crit, perma ult + mobility, and 30% is an overall gross and disgusting assortment and these are the areas which need to be hit.

rengar easily deals over 3500 damage with his kit and its reliable. AND ITS RELIABLE. 220 armor 3.3k health was negligible to him.

AthenasVendettaNov 21, 20164 votes

{quoted}

i will literally pick up rammus 100% of my games if it gives me the edge.

the unfortunate truth is rengar one shots with just the leap alone through a level 18 mage w/ just zhonyas.

rengar easily jumps and full combos a "tank mage" no sweat (with all targeted / point blank cant miss abilities ) full ad rengar > no sweat.

the guaranteed crit, perma ult + mobility, and 30% is an overall gross and disgusting assortment and these are the areas which need to be hit.

rengar easily deals over 3500 damage with his kit and its reliable. AND ITS RELIABLE. 220 armor 3.3k health was negligible to him.

3500 damage over a massive amount of time... you are looking at between a 6 second and 8-second constant spell rotation. He has trouble with tanky targets, alot of trouble, and even more so with targets that have CC. He is doing the job which he was designed... Just as Talon, Kha, LeBlanc.. etc.

I think the MAIN problem you are encountering is because teams are not used to him being played on a normal rate the same goes for kha and the rest of the assassins. Everyone is still learning to adapt to them.

OglafNov 21, 20164 votes

{quoted}

3500 damage over a massive amount of time... you are looking at between a 6 second and 8-second constant spell rotation. He has trouble with tanky targets, alot of trouble, and even more so with targets that have CC. He is doing the job which he was designed... Just as Talon, Kha, LeBlanc.. etc.

I think the MAIN problem you are encountering is because teams are not used to him being played on a normal rate the same goes for kha and the rest of the assassins. Everyone is still learning to adapt to them.

Not the issue is the guaranteed crit from his Ultimate - when he has 600-800 AD (I've even seen screenshots of 1000+ AD!)

His kit may be a bit much, but it is made a gazillion times worse by his stupid AD% Passive.

AthenasVendettaNov 21, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Not the issue is the guaranteed crit from his Ultimate - when he has 600-800 AD (I've even seen screenshots of 1000+ AD!)

His kit may be a bit much, but it is made a gazillion times worse by his stupid AD% Passive.

{quoted}

Come now, we know he doesn't. Kha'zix definitely benefited from the rework too, but is not as overloaded as Rengar currently is.

1000+ Ad but he can't reach Jhin level of AD? Bruh, you serious?

What you are referring to is the Youtube Video by Nightblue3 on his PBE account "Nightbloo" His damage levels cannot reach that anymore. The highest I have gotten is over 800 with every stack and baron and a elixir.

The passive is not the problem here is it?

It is the fact people, like you, are frustrated he jumps out and can do what he was designed for without you having much to do. Counter build him, play like you are against an assassin. Counter pick him... There is so much you can do but people are fix in their ways. If I as Ivern can solo a lvl one kha and rengar... Perhaps you need to re-evaluate how you are fighting him.

Being out in the open isn't something you want to do unless you can stun or negate damage. High picks against him?

Alistar Amumu Annie Anivia Blitzcrank Braum Chogath Cassiopeia Elise Janna Kayle Khazix Kindred Leblanc LeeSin Leona Lissandra Lulu Malphite Malzahar Maokai Nautilus Poppy Rammus Riven Ryze Sejuani Shen Sion Skarner Sona Soraka Syndra TahmKench Taric Trundle Zac

There is many many ways to do it. Items start coming into play to...:

item 3026 item 3109 item 3401 item 3190 item 3053

Abilities to...

but the problem is he can jump you and kill you alone. XD Not like Akali Ekko Elise Evelynn Fizz Khazix LeeSin Nidalee Shaco Talon Zed Leblanc these people cannot do the same thing. Shit even Yasuo falls into this catagory.

VexingRavenNov 22, 20162 votes

{quoted}

1000+ Ad but he can't reach Jhin level of AD? Bruh, you serious?

What you are referring to is the Youtube Video by Nightblue3 on his PBE account "Nightbloo" His damage levels cannot reach that anymore. The highest I have gotten is over 800 with every stack and baron and a elixir.

The passive is not the problem here is it?

It is the fact people, like you, are frustrated he jumps out and can do what he was designed for without you having much to do. Counter build him, play like you are against an assassin. Counter pick him... There is so much you can do but people are fix in their ways. If I as Ivern can solo a lvl one kha and rengar... Perhaps you need to re-evaluate how you are fighting him.

Being out in the open isn't something you want to do unless you can stun or negate damage. High picks against him?

There is many many ways to do it. Items start coming into play to...:

Abilities to...

but the problem is he can jump you and kill you alone. XD Not like these people cannot do the same thing. Shit even Yasuo falls into this catagory.

If this excuse works for Rengar, I want my AD Shaco back too.

AthenasVendettaNov 22, 20163 votes

{quoted}

If this excuse works for Rengar, I want my AD Shaco back too.

Shaco doesn't need any love besides early game surivivalbility because of jungle changes

Very Hard EngageNov 21, 20162 votes

its not dude, its really not.

go ahead and time leap, Q, + 1 auto.

its all < 1 second.

W and E aren't even needed. and if hes up against a tank it doesn't matter, they dont pose any threat of killing him at all, leaving rengar fully capable of dukeing it out over 4 seconds to use everything and get 2 autos needed to kill a full tank.

rengars damage is grossly unnecessary and defeats the purpose of an assassin.

AthenasVendettaNov 22, 20163 votes

{quoted}

its not dude, its really not.

go ahead and time leapstrike, Q, + 1 auto.

its all < 1 second.

W and E aren't even needed. and if hes up against a tank it doesn't matter, they dont pose any threat of killing him at all, leaving rengar fully capable of dukeing it out over 4 seconds to use everything and get 2 autos needed to kill a full tank.

rengars damage is grossly unnecessary and defeats the purpose of an assassin.

I find it sad you have a problem with Rengar and not any of the other assassins. Especially when Kha can beat him into the ground. I suggest you watch higher level play and learn his weaknesses.

Again remember Assassins are designed to delete carries. So for him to ult+q a ADC and kill them is working as intended. That Is what Leblanc does, and Kha, and even Talon.

Very Hard EngageNov 22, 20161 votes

yeah its called a friendship circle and direct targeted burst/instant cc.

i suggest you watch any jungler or streamer for that matter tell you rengar is op

take NB3's word https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZjqGcszSuk

take pantsaredragon word https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HS1m9dq7F-w

take redmercys word https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYvSOyPdIgw

dyrus/qt have been raging about rengar. saying things like "whoops almost forgot to ban rengar, that'd be a mistake"

NuparuNov 22, 20162 votes

So look. For one, there are two issues here:

A. Dekar173, an actual source that means something (aka he plays Rengar himself) has said Rengar is broken.

B. You're trying to use NB3 shit stomping gold players to rationalize balance. The man gets 40 kills on Eve almost every time he plays her in gold. Is she permaban?

OglafNov 21, 20164 votes

Rengar as a whole is fine.

But his Bonetooth Passive is full retard - 30% bonus AD for five kills is utterly absurd.

Especially if there is a Kha'zix present, which allows to go to 42%.

AthenasVendettaNov 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Rengar as a whole is fine.

But his Bonetooth Passive is full retard - 30% bonus AD for five kills is utterly absurd.

Especially if there is a Kha'zix present, which allows to go to 42%.

He reaches the same level of ad Jhin does... and as an assassin that is very good especially considering he might die for trying to kill one or two people. khakix flat out beats rengar...

OglafNov 21, 20163 votes

{quoted}

He reaches the same level of ad Jhin does... and as an assassin that is very good especially considering he might die for trying to kill one or two people. khakix flat out beats rengar...

Come now, we know he doesn't. Kha'zix definitely benefited from the rework too, but is not as overloaded as Rengar currently is.

Sahn UzalNov 22, 20165 votes

??? Rengar is strong, but Kha'Zix is DEFINETLY stronger than him lol

OglafNov 22, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tidal Tyrant,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8wqKEAbU,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-22T13:08:58.449+0000)

??? Rengar is strong, but Kha'Zix is DEFINETLY stronger than him lol

No, he definitely is not. Rengar gets 30% (42%) extra AD from everything he buys + his base AD. While Kha'zix definitely benefited from the rework too, his fluffy nemesis got the better deal - by far.

Sahn UzalNov 22, 20165 votes

No, he definitely is not. Rengar gets 30% (42%) extra AD from everything he buys + his base AD.

First off, don't fuckign use the Head of Kha'Zix for balance statements, that's like naming all the bonusses Kha'Zix could get from 4 evolves and calling him broken because of it.

It's % bonus AD, not % Total AD, so that's bullshit aswell.

You just named something from Rengars kit, but no actual arguments for Rengar ''being stronger than Kha'Zix.''

Rengar has a 47% winrate, and loses more against Kha'Zix than Kha'Zix loses to him.

GayFluffyUnicornNov 22, 20161 votes

Yes and jhin is immobile (mostly) a ranged AD caster who is fucked once you get to him. Rengar is a very mobile self healing and self cleansing stealth champ. What's the difference?

AthenasVendettaNov 22, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Yes and jhin is immobile (mostly) a ranged AD caster who is fucked once you get to him. Rengar is a very mobile self healing and self cleansing stealth champ. What's the difference?

Rengar has to choose between empowered abilities... Q he loses the cleanse. Cleanse he loses alot of damage. E locks down a target.... All of which still leaves him vulnerable to CC and burst.