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Kog's big problem is reliability

Rebonack··1 votes·367 views

Let's take a look at the other two true hyper-carries, shall we?

Vayne's Ult gives her a Big Moment with its stealth, movespeed, and hefty raw attack damage boost. Aside from popping it and tumbling into the middle of the enemy team, it can't really be wasted since Vayne has the tools she needs to to hunt down people who try to disengage from her. Even when her Ult is on cooldown, her Q and W provide her with formidable damage and her E is honestly pretty difficult to screw up. All in all, everything in her kit is very reliable. It does what you want it to do, when you need it to, with relatively little downtime.

Twitch's Ult likewise gives him a Big Moment due to its attack damage boost and piercing shots. His Q allows him to position largely with impunity to line it up and his Q resets allow him to keep his boosted IAS over the course of a battle. Flask is nearly impossible to miss, Contaminate serves to amplify his AD, and his Passive adds a nice little chunk of true damage. When his Ult is down, QWE with a few auto-attacks tossed in makes for a decent chunking tool. Again, his kit is very reliable.

And now KogMaw. His Big Moment is his W, which boasts 6 seconds of uptime and 7 seconds of downtime. Thirteen seconds is often enough time for a team fight to be well and over, so he typically won't get to pop it for a second helping. When Bio-Arcane is down, nothing Kog has is reliable. He's stuck with low attack range (for an ADC) and a gimpy item build that needs his W to function. His passive can be dodged. His Q can be dodged. His E can be dodged. His Ult can be dodged.

If Kog is going to work as League's immobile long range sustained damage Marksmen, which by all accounts is what Riot wants Kog to do, then his kit must have more reliability. By the time the team-fight stage rolls around, Kog should be able to always have Bio-Arcane Barrage available for use if he's to function, because if he doesn't have it then he has no way of defending himself, let alone fight back with any degree of success.

Let's make this really simple. Reduce the cooldown on Kog's W to 12/9/6/3/0 seconds. Still enough of a cooldown early game to prevent him from having it up constantly (since Riot insists that Kog needs to be awful in a meta that strongly favors early/mid game ADCs) but by the time skirmishes and team fights start happening, he'll be able to fill his fantasy reliably.

17 Comments

YossarianSensei3 votes

Yeah his W would be much better if it was just a toggle like Jinx

But then he'd probably be OP, like Jinx.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah his W would be much better if it was just a toggle like Jinx

But then he'd probably be OP, like Jinx.

If Riot doesn't mind giving Kog a much stronger early game, then his W could be safely turned into a toggle. So long as Kog doesn't get an AD ratio back on his W like he did early in the remake, then he's probably not going to be able to hyper-carry quite as hard as Twitch and Vayne can, so that might be workable.

As it stands now, though, there's just no compelling reason to pick Kog. There's a reason why he boasts a sub-one percent pick rate in Ranked. Riot went into this remake with the intent of giving Kog a concrete reason to be picked for a team composition and all they managed to do was make him even less likely to be used.

LoLKiru2 votes

{quoted}

Yeah his W would be much better if it was just a toggle like Jinx

But then he'd probably be OP, like Jinx.

To be fair, the biggest difference is that unless he's well defended; Kog doesn't really have too many options for escaping his pursuers, Jinx can at least throw down flame chompers and try to turn the fight around (her 80% MS slow is pretty good for kiting too)

If Kog gets caught, he's generally dead in the water unless he can melt you before you melt him.

OT: I think its fine for his W to have 100% uptime, as long as its mid to lategame and not super early.

If having the cooldown scale on his W is too much (since most Kog players DO max that first) you could have it scale with ranks of his ult, 50% cooldown at rank 1, 100% less at rank 2, and just permanently active; no mana cost at all at rank 3.

Edit: Also worth noting that after a certain point, it becomes disadvantageous (if not outright impossible at that speed) to kite with Kog; because his AS is so absurdly high. Kog would rather just stand in a single spot and lay waste to everything around him.

YossarianSensei4 votes

The problem with Kog is if he's 'balanced' then it's very easy for him to tip into 'absurdly overpowered' territory

He's a ball-of-stats champ by nature and as you said yourself he doesn't have too many options other than to set up a good position in a team fight then let Jesus take the wheel. As soon as he becomes 'good' people will realize they can just peel for Kog'maw which is infinitely easier than diving the enemy Lucian/Vayne/whatever it is nowadays

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

The problem with Kog is if he's 'balanced' then it's very easy for him to tip into 'absurdly overpowered' territory

He was arguably 'balanced' before the remake. Sure, his pick rate was pretty low (it's about a quarter now of what it was pre-remake. Good work Riot) but his performance was honestly pretty solid, especially with people who had lots of practice on him. I think this form of Kog can be reasonable with just number tweaks, but if Riot wants Kog to be healthy and balanced he needs another lever in his kit aside from ALL THE DAMAGE.

Because all ADCs do lots of damage. Most of them do less than Kog, but they do other things as well. And some of them do more than Kog due to their ability to poke safely. Hey there Corki and Ez!

He's a ball-of-stats champ by nature and as you said yourself he doesn't have too many options other than to set up a good position in a team fight then let Jesus take the wheel. As soon as he becomes 'good' people will realize they can just peel for Kog'maw which is infinitely easier than diving the enemy Lucian/Vayne/whatever it is nowadays

I would argue that he's less a ball-of-stats champ than the other two hyper carries. Everything in Kog's kit other than his auto-attacks can be dodged pretty easily. If you dodge Kog's Q and Ults, then his damage will take a pretty noticeable hit.

And as it happens, Kog's performance seems to actually be better in Solo than it is in 5v5. Why? Because a coordinated team trying to kill Kog hurts him more than a coordinated team trying to protect him helps.

Troiann1 votes

You give a champion with the ability to hit 5.0 attack speed and then tack on reliability to that sort of damage and you got yourself miss fortune, a broken ass champ.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

You give a champion with the ability to hit 5.0 attack speed and then tack on reliability to that sort of damage and you got yourself miss fortune, a broken ass champ.

Miss Fortune is absolutely fine as of the nerfs to her E. You're a bit behind the curve if you're still complaining about her.

Five attacks per second is just as much of a weakness as it is a strength. Being unable to kite effectively helps to really hammer-home Kog's pros and cons. If Kog's W made his attacks apply OnHit effects twice and did nothing to his attack speed, the skill would be drastically more powerful. You're getting hung up on big numbers.

Take a look at what the other hyper carries do. Vayne is a tank-busting duelist. Even when her Ult is down she can still fill that niche. Twitch is a stealthy assassin-ish champion. Even when his Ult is down, he can still fill that niche. Kog is supposed to be the premiere long range sustained damage source. He absolutely can not fill that niche with his W down.

Troiann2 votes

Ok here's the difference.

Kog can't fill in the role when his W is down.

His W CD: 7 seconds at max rank.

Vayne and Twitch's ult cooldown: 80 seconds+

No fucking shit they're still going to fill their role when their ults aren't up. Their CDs are over a minute long.

Kog maw has a 1 SECOND DOWNTIME on his W with NO CDR.

So he can't fill that role for 1 second, but he shouldn't even have that downtime because other champions can do damage even if their ults aren't up?

Whatever the fuck you're on I want it.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

Ok here's the difference.

Kog can't fill in the role when his W is down.

His W CD: 7 seconds at max rank.

Vayne and Twitch's ult cooldown: 80 seconds+

No fucking shit they're still going to fill their role when their ults aren't up. Their CDs are over a minute long.

Kog maw has a 1 SECOND DOWNTIME on his W with NO CDR.

So he can't fill that role for 1 second, but he shouldn't even have that downtime because other champions can do damage even if their ults aren't up?

Whatever the fuck you're on I want it.

You seem needlessly hostile, though I'm not terribly sure why. There's no reason to be upset.

Kog's W cooldown doesn't begin until his skill ends, unlike most steroid skills. If you were familiar with Kog you would be aware of this, so I figure you probably haven't played him since the remake. Which is fine, though it strikes me as odd that someone with no experience with a champion would feel compelled to provide commentary on the nuance of whether or not said champion is doing a good job of filling their intended team role.

Perhaps we should take a step back.

Take a look at each ADC and their niche. How many of them can fill their niche without regard for cooldowns?

Ashe's thing is consistent damage and kiting. Her flurry attack is there to let her all-in after wearing a foe down with Volley. Her Ult is there to improve her target selection. She can fill her niche at all times and her long cooldowns support/enhance it.

Cait's thing is zone control, like a good police sniper she pins down her target. To that end, her traps are persistent and her long attack range never goes away. The persistent threat of her control never goes away. Her big cooldowns are mainly there to finish of foes that move out of her range.

Corki does medium to long range burst and mixed magic damage with high mobility. He never loses his bonus damage and it takes an effort to run his Ult dry. Gatling Gun and the Package both serve to augment his mixed damage and mobility, respectively. Regardless of cooldowns, Corki is always able to fill his bursty mixed damage niche.

I could keep going down the list. Each Marksmen with a well defined niche is able to keep doing their thing without having to wait on sizable cooldowns. They may have longer cooldowns that augment their niche or otherwise support it, but they can still fill their primary purpose no matter what.

Aside from Kog, of course, who becomes utterly useless when his W is down. The only other exception to this rule is Tristana, the demolition Marksmen. And given the nature of her kit, if she doesn't crush a tower within the span of her Q then something weird is going on. But even when her Q and E are on cooldown, she still has her mobility and long auto-attack range to fall back on. Trist auto-attacking things with her Q down is inconvenienced. Kog auto-attack things without his W is suicidal.

Troiann1 votes

Because your logic is flawed.

People max W first on Kog maw. By level 9 he has a 1 second downtime on his W. And that shit is a ridiculous steroid.

You saying "oh he's worthless when he's not up" makes no fucking sense. Maybe if his W had a 20 second cooldown that was irreducible by CDR. But no. He is gated by a 1 second cooldown after 15 minutes.

Like......why the fuck are you comlaining about that? I understand kog isn't really a strong pick but you saying his 1 second W downtime shouldn't exist because twitch can do damage without his ult is just absolutely retarded.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

Because your logic is flawed.

People max W first on Kog maw. By level 9 he has a 1 second downtime on his W. And that shit is a ridiculous steroid.

You saying "oh he's worthless when he's not up" makes no fucking sense. Maybe if his W had a 20 second cooldown that was irreducible by CDR. But no. He is gated by a 1 second cooldown after 15 minutes.

Like......why the fuck are you comlaining about that? I understand kog isn't really a strong pick but you saying his 1 second W downtime shouldn't exist because twitch can do damage without his ult is just absolutely retarded.

...I just explained in my last post that the cooldown on Kog's W starts after the skill ends, not when he pops it. It has seven seconds of downtime and six seconds of uptime. If the cooldown started when Kog pops his W like every other steroid in the game, then yes it would have one second of downtime and I wouldn't have had to make this topic.

It's painfully clear that you've never played Kog as of his remake. You haven't the faintest grasp of what you're talking about. Why are you even posting here?

And for the record, it's Q first or W first depends largely on the matchup. Typically, Q first and grabbing Blasting Wand on your first back to give your Q and E a bit more bite in early trades. Maxing W only gives additional range and lowers the cooldown a bit. Q gives a stronger nuke, stronger resist shred, and more attack speed.

Troiann1 votes

My bad on the W cooldown.

My point still stands though. You cannot compare champions who can deal damage outside of their ults to a champion whose weak for 9 seconds.

Whether Kog needs buffs or not is an entirely different argument from "twitch can do damage without using his ult, we need to buff kog so he can too".

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

My bad on the W cooldown.

My point still stands though. You cannot compare champions who can deal damage outside of their ults to a champion whose weak for 9 seconds.

Whether Kog needs buffs or not is an entirely different argument from "twitch can do damage without using his ult, we need to buff kog so he can too".

Thanks for admitting the gaff. That's encouraging.

Champions are comparable when the observation applies to the whole class. The only reason I brought up Twitch and Vayne as specific examples is because they're the other two true hyper-carries. In every single instance Marksmen are able to fill their gameplay niche even while waiting on cooldowns or else they have resets to mitigate those cooldowns.

Graves is always a tanky shotgun guy.

MF has her low cooldown Q to keep pumping out damage to multiple targets.

Varus' spammy arrow doesn't stop flying until his mana pool burns out.

Ezreal can lob Qs for days.

Corki always deals significant mixed damage due to his Ult and Passive.

Lucean can chain his skills to dash and double-shot constantly.

Quinn's strategic mobility has effectively no cooldown.

Twitches Stealth resets on takedowns.

Vayne's Silver Bolts provide her with tank-busting power at all times while Tumble gives her on-demand tactical mobility.

Ashe can slow and poke to her heart's content.

Sivir can spam AoE damage constantly.

Cait's long range and persistent traps let her keep foes pinned down.

Trist's range and AoE pushing never go away, allowing her to siege at all times.

Jinx' AoE crits hold out as long as her mana does.

Kalista never stops hopping.

Draven can keep his punishing damage up as long as he keeps juggling.

Kindred's Hunt never ends and just keeps building all game.

And Kog? Kog is supposed to be the game's tripod machine gun, but he only has that niche when W is up.

When it's down he's nothing.

Troiann1 votes

Well yes but all the other champs also have limitations as well. Kog Maw isn't the only one.

I feel like they should just completely revert his rework. But you can't make his W has a 100% uptime or something. I'll agree he's too weak but making him THAT reliable is going to break him.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

Well yes but all the other champs also have limitations as well. Kog Maw isn't the only one.

I feel like they should just completely revert his rework. But you can't make his W has a 100% uptime or something. I'll agree he's too weak but making him THAT reliable is going to break him.

They do have limitations or conditions, but there is always some way to mitigate them. In all cases, other Marksmen fill their niche even when they are waiting on cooldowns. The cooldowns are there to support or augment that niche, not provide it whole-hog.

There is another option, but it would require a bit more work on Riot's part.

If the double attack speed/half damage portion of Kog's W became his Passive, then he would always be the machine gun champ. That would open up some power to spread around elsewhere since his self-destruct would be gone.

Sneakyy XD1 votes

Kog's problem is Riot doesn't understand the difference between attack speed (and by extension on-hit) in a damage calculator and attack speed in-game.

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