You get to 100 courage BU BUM BA DA-Dead
The 1 second or so remount animation. It feels like I die more often in that animation than I actually remount. It feels REALLY bad.
What is the possibility of the health returning at the start of the animation, with the courage generation from hitting enemy champions nerfed slightly so that it takes an extra auto to remount? It'd make the champion feel a lot better, without necessarily adding extra power.
Asayake 5150glow5 votesYou know what also feels really bad?
Trading hard in lane, matching his all in's, going even,
Then he gets dismounted but you're too low to fight him.
And he remounts from killing minions and you proceed to kill yourself because well you didn't wanna win lane anyway.
Remounting as it is right now just isn't a fun mechanic. If you remount, as the Kled player, you're like HELL YEAH. But the enemy? They're like FUCK THIS I'M DONE. Especially because dismounted Kled can be difficult to catch, with his hard hitting, low cooldown Q, and high range, he can get over half his Courage bar filled before you even reach him.
His dismounted Q needs a fucking change. It's so stupid to play against. It hurts like a Graves auto and even better than a Graves auto, it goes through minions, which means he shoots you while you're farming, and it pushes him away so it's hard to follow up on him, especially early game where you'd eat minion aggro.
Remount-Dismount was a cool idea, but for the most part it either ends up - go ham, kill them without getting dismounted, -go ham, get dismounted, die, or -go ham, get dismounted but either they're low enough for you to kill, in which case they just walk away because you have no stick, or they're kinda healthy but then you Q them, dissengage (because they have no mobility left, assuming their mobility is tied to their damage/defense/utility which they just used to fight you, which is the case for most champions), farm for courage at ~250 range and Q them while they last hit/if they try engaging.
His Q doesn't even make sense with his theme. Neither does his huge range. He should be trying to stick onto them and smack them, building courage and going HAM. Instead he kites them around with his extra range on his autos and Q backwards damage+mobility, and if they get onto him, well it's HIM who's fucked, not them.
His dismounted Q should be a ranged slow, and his range should be 150. Fits with his theme of brute forcing through things. While that's not the best theme to play against, it's definitely one that's well defined.
Dismounting shouldn't lose tower aggro either. It just makes him so snowbally, he just ults you under tower, gets a shield, smacks you, dismounts, smacks you more and Q's away. It's just dumb. There's almost no counterplay.
OKAY I WENT SUPER OFF TOPIC.
Yeah, I don't see a problem with your idea. Although I think Kled needs other changes.
WTBeGirl100EUhr1 votesI actually agree with some of this. Most of it I disagree with.
Then he gets dismounted but you're too low to fight him.
And he remounts from killing minions and you proceed to kill yourself because well you didn't wanna win lane anyway.
It isn't as though this window of vulnerability isn't punishable. When Kled is dismounted he is a completely free kill for your jungler. If you're low and can't fight him, then you can see when he'll remount. You know exactly when you need to GTFO or die.
Especially because dismounted Kled can be difficult to catch, with his hard hitting, low cooldown Q
I think the CD is deceptively long since it has 2 charges when you dismount which makes it feel a lot shorter. That said, he has 285 base MS and no CC. He isn't hard to catch.
His dismounted Q needs a fucking change. It's so stupid to play against. It hurts like a Graves auto and even better than a Graves auto, it goes through minions, which means he shoots you while you're farming, and it pushes him away so it's hard to follow up on him, especially early game where you'd eat minion aggro.
His dismounted Q is about the only thing that gives him any way at all of remounting ever. If he uses it to harass in lane - particularly if he misses - it makes him incredibly vulnerable afterwards and is very easy to punish. The damage is fairly justified considering his autos get a damage reduction whilst dismounted.
Dismounting shouldn't lose tower aggro either. It just makes him so snowbally, he just ults you under tower, gets a shield, smacks you, dismounts, smacks you more and Q's away. It's just dumb. There's almost no counterplay.
This is super dumb. The invulnerability frame on his dismount is kind of obnoxious. There are other situations than this where it's silly, like when the damage of a hard CC ability hits you (like a Morg Q) but you aren't CC'd because you dismounted, or you simply dodge a CC due to being dismounted at the timing it hits you.
Asayake 5150glow1 votesI actually agree with some of this. Most of it I disagree with.
It isn't as though this window of vulnerability isn't punishable. When Kled is dismounted he is a completely free kill for your jungler. If you're low and can't fight him, then you can see when he'll remount. You know exactly when you need to GTFO or die.
Yeah, but it's just that you really don't wanna fight Kled early game because if you both get low, Kled has a way of regenning ~300 health while you don't, and if you try to stop him, you'll probably die. Now this wouldn't be much of a problem, except Kled is really, really, good at forcing fights. So if this happens, you need to recall and basically flat out lose lane.
Plus junglers aren't reliable.
I think the CD is deceptively long since it has 2 charges when you dismount which makes it feel a lot shorter. That said, he has 285 base MS and no CC. He isn't hard to catch.
3 second cooldown, dude. Charges means he can't spam them, but 2 shots already really hurt. He is hard to catch if going in on him means running through an entire minion wave while tanking a Graves auto (Q) and some 250 range autos, because I'll die by the time I get onto him.
His dismounted Q is about the only thing that gives him any way at all of remounting ever. If he uses it to harass in lane - particularly if he misses - it makes him incredibly vulnerable afterwards and is very easy to punish. The damage is fairly justified considering his autos get a damage reduction whilst dismounted.
I thought Kled was supposed to be weak while dismounted? Yeah his autos do 80% AD, but he has 144% bonus AD on a 3 second cooldown, which can be casted twice before needing to charge up. It's not justified. When he's dismounted, Kled shouldn't be doing good damage - he should be trying to remount.
This is super dumb. The invulnerability frame on his dismount is kind of obnoxious. There are other situations than this where it's silly, like when the damage of a hard CC ability hits you (like a Morg Q) but you aren't CC'd because you dismounted, or you simply dodge a CC due to being dismounted at the timing it hits you.
Yeah so get rid of it. Exactly.
WTBeGirl100EUhr1 votes3 second CD between using charges... 20 second CD for each charge returning. Sounds like a pretty long CD to me. It's NOT a low CD. If he doesn't have Violent Tendencies up (which will proc when CSing), his AS is very low and you'll get onto him if he stops to auto attack you.
Honestly it sounds like you're salty because you're not very good at playing against Kled. He has clearly defined windows of vulnerability - which includes any time his W is down - where he cannot trade effectively and is very vulnerable to being just killed if he sticks around whilst dismounted if the enemy laner has any CC or executes, or is simply burst-oriented, or is ranged... or has a jungler.
He is weak whilst dismounted. He has an 144% bonus AD IF he hits all 5 hits, which only happens at complete melee range, on a 20s CD - not 3 as his only damage source other than auto attacks if you're not stupid enough to engage on him when he has W since he cannot force the fight himself other than by walking at you.
Asayake 5150glow1 votes3 second CD between using charges... 20 second CD for each charge returning. Sounds like a pretty long CD to me. It's NOT a low CD.
It's a VERY low cooldown! You get Q'd twice in 3 seconds! And it does enough damage that that's all he needs to force you away, unless you stomped him hard enough that you're full health and he's dismounted.
WTBeGirl100EUhr1 votesIt's this simple. If you let him harass you with his Q for free at a range where he's hitting all 5 pellets for that juicy 144% bonus AD ratio that you're so afraid of you're literally AFK or trolling. If he uses both of his Qs to harass you have 17 seconds to jump on and kill or at least force out someone with 285 MS and is less than half HP. He won't remount without the AS from his W unless you've literally let him farm up to 70%+ courage.
Playing against Kled is about punishing his windows of weakness and not allowing him to run the lane. Presuming, of course, you're not playing a champion who can just allow Kled to remount and still outduel him. There are enough of those.
Asayake 5150glow1 votesIt's this simple. If you let him harass you with his Q for free at a range where he's hitting all 5 pellets for that juicy 144% bonus AD ratio that you're so afraid of you're literally AFK or trolling. If he uses both of his Qs to harass you have 17 seconds to jump on and kill or at least force out someone with 285 MS and is less than half HP. He won't remount without the AS from his W unless you've literally let him farm up to 70%+ courage.
And... who says he doesn't have his W up? Either you let him farm until it runs out, or he hits you with it.
It's a Graves auto. He doesn't actually need to get into melee range to hit you with all 5. Champion hitboxes are relatively large.
Besides, the whole point is that you're also at less than half HP, and in order to try to kill him, you need to eat Q's and minion aggro.
Playing against Kled is about punishing his windows of weakness and not allowing him to run the lane. Presuming, of course, you're not playing a champion who can just allow Kled to remount and still outduel him. There are enough of those.
Playing against Kled is either 1) outstating him, or 2) Outrunning him, AKA be able to dissengage through his double dash. His windows of weakness is only his W cooldown, and if you go for an extended fight because you can't get away from his double dash + Q pull, it comes up again to win him the fight, especially once he gets some levels .
WTBeGirl100EUhr1 votesKled has to be within AA range to hit all 5 on most champions. Yeah if you're Cho'gath you get smacked by all 5. Go figure.
As for "if you go for an extended fight because you can't get away from his double dash + Q pull, it comes up again to win him the fight, especially once he gets some levels .". His Q and E do not have long enough durations to allow his W to come back up.
Asayake 5150glow1 votesKled has to be within AA range to hit all 5 on most champions. Yeah if you're Cho'gath you get smacked by all 5. Go figure.
Either that's not true, or it still hurts plenty even if it doesn't hit all 5.
As for "if you go for an extended fight because you can't get away from his double dash + Q pull, it comes up again to win him the fight, especially once he gets some levels .". His Q and E do not have long enough durations to allow his W to come back up.
Yes... they... do? Keep in mind, you are the one going in on him when his W is down. Which means he doesn't have to E until you decide to back off, which is like a ~3 second trade. E gets him another 3 seconds with it's dashes, 2 seconds between each I believe and it's range is ~1 second. Q gives maybe one more, but it's got a short cooldown as well so he'll have used it twice. And then it's hard to get away from him, assuming you don't have an escape which isn't also your engage because remember, you are the one who engaged and burned your mobility to do so. 2 dashes and a hook is plenty for him to win the trade and stick to you after you try to back off.
WTBeGirl100EUhr1 votesOkay, if he uses his Q and E to stay close whilst his W comes up, he then needs to be allowed to auto attack you 4 times afterwards since the damage is largely loaded into the 4th auto. If the trade is long enough for his CDs to come back up, then yours are as well.
Why is every scenario in your head perfectly optimal for Kled and completely screwing over the other person?
Asayake 5150glow1 votesOkay, if he uses his Q and E to stay close whilst his W comes up, he then needs to be allowed to auto attack you 4 times afterwards since the damage is largely loaded into the 4th auto. If the trade is long enough for his CDs to come back up, then yours are as well.
3 autos with 200% attack speed
Why is every scenario in your head perfectly optimal for Kled and completely screwing over the other person?
Because even if your dash does come up, you'll have spent the last ~6 seconds running away and getting auto'd+Q'd to the point where you completely lost the trade even with his W down. Or if you decide to stick around and trade until your escape comes up, so you aren't wasting time... he didn't use his E yet!
WTBeGirl100EUhr1 votesIt's 150%, not 200%, and if even if he's orbwalking effectively he can't stick to someone without using anything whilst mounted.
Asayake 5150glow1 votesIt's 150%, not 200%, and if even if he's orbwalking effectively he can't stick to someone without using anything whilst mounted.
Meh, it's pretty damn fast. Also, it's not about sticking, it's about kiting. And minion block helps too.
LordGeovanni1 votesComplaining about matching Kleds all ins is almost as stupid as complaining about deuling Darius which is accepted at this point
Asayake 5150glow1 votesComplaining about matching Kleds all ins is almost as stupid as complaining about deuling Darius which is accepted at this point
No, it's not, because while Darius wins the all in, he has a hard time forcing them. Kled also relies on winning all in's, and he does so fairly reliably, and he's godly at forcing them.
See the difference?
Nyhver1 votesThat is hugely frustrating, especially when GA pops and you're on skaarl in both the non present death animation and when you revive, but I feel this change wouldn't be good for most other players. I'd love it as someone who plays Kled but a non Kled player would Just see that as a huge buff he wouldn't need.
If they did this they may need to either change how he gains courage (maybe reduce what he can gain on autos (as suggested) or Q. Or maybe increase the time taken to mount). I think that it does help to make you think about positioning as it is now though. So I feel it does help to balance him in a way (makes you think about your health and courage currently, what the engage will provide/ will it be enough to re mount) so in that sense I like it how it is. Giving him his health straight back would be okay but they'd have to change his health bases, which are already pretty terrible. So I think it would require a lot of mini changes. This is a good suggestion though, it's horrid when you earn the courage for it to be wasted infront of you.
WTBeGirl100EUhr1 votesI don't think it should require any changes to HP. Maybe the HP return on mounting rather than his actual HP. Reducing the HP return early game since it's more accessible would be fair?
Honestly I think that the main time that remounting can be obnoxious is in lane anyway.
Nyhver1 votesIf they scaled it with levels that could work, so it was less punishing later on when you'll probably be in a 5 vs 5 or atleast not a 1 vs 1. They could alternatively maybe not allow Kled to move during re mount. So you can't reposition as easily so you have to consider it too
Asayake 5150glow1 votesI don't think it should require any changes to HP. Maybe the HP return on mounting rather than his actual HP. Reducing the HP return early game since it's more accessible would be fair?
Honestly I think that the main time that remounting can be obnoxious is in lane anyway.
Kled shouldn't be able to remount without fighting champions unless he's alone. CS'ing shouldn't give courage unless there aren't enemy champions in ~2k range. That's because in lane, if you and your laner both get low, Kled should have 2 choices: Go ham and try to outstat them, or recall. His farming and dissengaging with Q and damage is the complete opposite of his theme.
Kled shouldn't trade effectively, period. He should poke with Q and autos, or he should go all in.
PhDs Nuts1 votesNo. If Kled were to get his HP back instantly, then it should take much longer to stack the remount in combat with champions.
WTBeGirl100EUhr1 voteswith the courage generation from hitting enemy champions nerfed
So, yes?
Sir Fuzzi1 votesLet him move while he's remounting?
WTBeGirl100EUhr1 votesYou can move whilst remounting.
Anonagon1 votesThat would have disgusting implications for how it feels and how you have to play to reach the remount. Right now a full W, Titanic active, and perfect Q is a complete remount. To have to autoattack once more on top of that would feel terrible and be a net nerf to Kled's actual ability to remount, even if the health actually returned faster when you got it.
WTBeGirl100EUhr1 votesThis is a fair point and something I honestly hadn't considered. I was honestly just looking to find a way to remove the fairly frustrating interaction without adding extra power to Kled.
Fed by Snu Snu1 votesThe times where a Kled gets to do the opposite are far more common...so...tough luck?