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What if Ekko's utility... scaled with AP?

WTBeGirl100EUhr··185 votes·18,426 views

it would accomplish the goal of allowing him to have the utility-skirmisher role, whilst gutting tank Ekko, no?

The issue is that his early game would likely become atrociously bad without some kind of buffs to the base damages on his abilities to compensate for his loss of early game utility, but honestly that's something that could be done in reaction to him actually being really weak for a patch. No-one's going to miss him for a patch, right?

THE NUMBERS ARE FOR EXAMPLE PURPOSE ONLY

Z-Drive Resonance: SLOW: 30 / 40 / 50 / 60% (scaling with level) >>> 30 + 0.05 AP% (60% slow at 600 AP) Movement Speed: 50 / 60 / 70 / 80% (scaling with level) >>> 50 + 0.05 AP% (80% at 600 AP)

Timewinder: SLOW: 32 / 39 / 46 / 53 / 60% (scaling with rank) >>> 30 + 0.05 AP% (60% slow at 600 AP)

Parallel Convergence: STUN: 2.25s >>> 1.25 + 0.002 APs (1 second per 500 AP) This is the bit I would be most iffy on. A stun duration scaling with AP seems REALLY difficult to balance, since with a high amount of AP this stun could become SUPER long (3s+). It's probably wiser to make it scale with rank or just reduce it flat-out (2.25s >>> 1.75s)

The shield already scales 150% AP. Do we really need to buff that further to get Ekko to build AP? With 500 AP you have a 810 HP shield

Phase Dive: No changes. Range scaling with AP would be SUPER awkward.

Chronobreak: Honestly I personally feel that Chronobreak is pretty balanced on tank Ekko. The heal is pretty small (although the value with resistances is much higher) and AP Ekko can already pretty much fully heal itself. People complain about the ability itself, but lots of ults can be used as an escape - except those you get to choose where you end up. If you're playing tank Ekko and you're going deep, sometimes the ult isn't going to be somewhere safe for you to run to. It's not going to be somewhere safe in lane much of the time either. Honestly, I personally feel like much of the complaint about this ability is unfounded, and that the problems lie elsewhere in his kit. MAYBE adjust the numbers.

181 Comments

RiotMeddler139 votes

Hmm, can definitely see some promise there, the slow on the Q scaling with AP instead of rank in particular. I'll bounce the suggestion onto the folks likely to work on Ekko's balance in future patches just in case they haven't already seen it.

Dessem40 votes

:O

And people say Riot never listens to the community's suggestions.

Swae723 votes

They listen, but when you insult them they ignoore you.. Besides, riot meddler is like our connection to riot.

DualShields23 votes

Ignoring someone who's being less than civil twards you is more smart thinking than anything.

Hello I am Bird4 votes

RiotRepitoir cries in a corner

chipndip15 votes

{quoted}

:O

And people say Riot never listens to the community's suggestions.

The Sightstone upgrades were a long-time community suggestion. I'm surprised people don't realize that one of the key highlights of the preseason was something that was suggested repeatedly on this forum.

Treyen4 votes

suggested repeatedly, finally added, so crappy no one builds them. ayyy good design engage!

AATTRROOXX6 votes

Right now the dragon buff icons are too hard to read clearly, I propose changing them from being colored based on team to being colored based on buff type

from this

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Z8V-YnYRJws/VxlfKDJinUI/AAAAAAAA6IU/UsMYCSg0-Ck0WdZhPhUZQy_xT0fWkgtGwCKgB/s640/msart.jpg

to this

http://i.imgur.com/fNUQdO6.png

Do you agree that this is easier to read and understand?

Hay5eed2 votes

Honestly, I think that this conecpt (ultility scaling with AP) would be better expressed on an AP support. Like, does Zilean REALLY need a 99% slow or speed boost on max rank? Why not make it scale with AP in a similar fashion that Armor scales. Like, if I get 100 armor i get 50% damage reduction from all AD. If i get 200 armor I get 67% damage reduction.

Jeddy01724 votes

AP scaling utility sounds like a something for a utility mage (support). On an assassin/diver like Ekko, what he needs is a cut on the amount of utility he has. Remove the slow off of his passive. He already gets bonus movespeed. Lower the total slow on his Q, the 1st part at least. Or remove the slow on the 2nd part. Remove the slow from his W, but shorten the delay.

ahferroin72 votes

I'd say keep the slow on his W, but reduce it, and get rid of the 150% AP scaling on the shield when you pop it.

A good glass cannon Ekko is just as hard if not harder to kill than a good tank Ekko, mostly because of that insane AP scaling on the shield.

Chuck Charles8 votes

the whole point of assassin ekko is to reward you for landing the very difficult to land stun. it has a 3 second channel time which is massive.

2.25 second stun and 150% ap shield means you can dive into the enemy team if you can land it on a squishy, kill them. and probably have just enough health to ult out because of the shield

the shield is not meant to give you the ability to tank the whole team forever. just to help you reliably assassinate your target and ult out. the W is honestly the main part of his kit that is fine. The Q initial slow is ok as well.

the slow on his passive is pretty crippling for tank ekko though.

i mean if he is forced to build squishy it isn't really that big of an issue. laning as ekko takes a lot of skill if you are going full ap. its very hard to trade since you need Q to trade but you also need it to wave clear. and if play it even slightly wrong you are fucked and shoved into tower or taking bad trades and being forced to back.

I think he just needs a little more base damage nerfs and ap ratio buffs and then he will be in a good spot. probaby just nerf the Q damage as right now it doesn't seem to make much sense. its base damage is the same on the way out as it is on the back. but its ap ratios imply that its stronger on way back than it is on way out. the return Q is relatively difficult to land but the damage is same for initial Q which means the brainless E > Q combo will always be decent in dmg. nerf the initial Q damage and then tank ekko will be more in line. you could also give his passive a longer internal cooldown on the same target. right now its pretty short.

It Hertz When IP10 votes

Isn't that an assassin's weakness? They're supposed to suck at waveclear/lane trading and snowball off of roaming and kills.

Erockandroll7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darien Juranas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9mQ9VL2E,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2016-05-02T17:49:48.718+0000)

Isn't that an assassin's weakness? They're supposed to suck at waveclear/lane trading and snowball off of roaming and kills.

The problem with that is, Snowballing off Kills is Oppressive when it works, and makes the champion useless when it doesn't. It's too much of a knifes edge to be a champion design. So a champion who's kit is based off of killing select targets, need an auxiliary, so they don't have to have that knifes edge of balance.

Wave clear is Okay for the Magier Assassins. But usually that wave clear is shorter range and is more risky compared to actual mages. (Like how Leblanc needs to dive the minion wave to clear it.)

As for the whole utility ratios. it would be near impossible to balance. The proposed ratios, is way too much. The break even point should not be at 600 AP. and yet, even with reasonable ratios for utility scaling. It would make him oppressive, assuming he can get pass the weaker early game.

And even though he's is a so called Utility Assassin, He's an assassin first. His utility should be flatter compared to higher utility characters such as Lulu or Ori.

Karma Deified3 votes

We need to stop looking at Ekko as an assassin and balance him as a fighter who needs to heavily commit to be optimal.

Reposer29 votes

No. Honestly what people don't seem to realize with Ekko is that his kit is completely reliant on his utility. He has nowhere near the burst of any other assassin in the game, unless he manages to land his ultimate, which isn't really able to be used to assassinate, due to the delay. He needs the slows and movespeed on his kit, otherwise he can't do damage, since his main source of damage is in his passive and auto attacks, both from the W passive and the attack speed he gets innate, he's more sustained damage once he gets his passive procced, unless, again, he lands his ultimate. But that's obviously difficult to do unless they enemy walks into it or you land a powerful stun.

Removing literally every slow on his kit would devestate him, unless he got ridiculous damage buffs, which would honestly feel bad for both sides. The scaling idea is cool, though I think the slow on his Q should always be stronger than his passive. And as a note, the Q coming back does NOT slow at all, assuming you're getting hit by only the return hit. It only slows people hit during the time it's expanded, when hitting an enemy or max range.

The W one could be feasible, but would be pretty odd overall, and would lower a lot of the skill needed to play Ekko, since it's one of the biggest things to rely on in his kit, both for counterplay and skill cap. Honestly they'd have to lower the stun at that point, or lower damage on his kit, for the ease of use it would provide, and overall it would probably be a bad decision.

SpecterVonBaren8 votes

So Ekko needs to have three slows, a speed boost, and a stun, while having a dash+blink and another blink so he can deal his damage but someone like... Skarner only gets to have shitty base movespeed and just a slow on and speed boost to deal his damage? I understand not wanting him to be gutted but come on man, his kit is the most overloaded thing in the game since Lee Sin was released, SOMETHING has to give.

Nautoday16 votes

These champs do not compare.

Karma Deified13 votes

I think it's safe to compare a strong utility tank with a weak utility tank.

AsphodelNext6 votes

... Skarner has a stun. His E stuns after you hit with it and auto. He also has a suppress as his ultimate.

SpecterVonBaren7 votes

Both of which require him to get to his target first in order to use them.

Oshlet3 votes

But neither of which have a 3 second delay before they apply. Ekko is definitely stronger than ol' skarnerino, but they fill different roles. They have different kits. Stop comparing clouds and cheese.

SpecterVonBaren4 votes

The point is that Ekko could certainly do to lose something from his kit. He doesn't need as much as he has. For example, remove the slow from his passive and make his W passive part of his normal passive.

Gigahappytown2 votes

{quoted}

No. Honestly what people don't seem to realize with Ekko is that his kit is completely reliant on his utility. He has nowhere near the burst of any other assassin in the game, unless he manages to land his ultimate, which isn't really able to be used to assassinate, due to the delay. He needs the slows and movespeed on his kit, otherwise he can't do damage, since his main source of damage is in his passive and auto attacks, both from the W passive and the attack speed he gets innate, he's more sustained damage once he gets his passive procced, unless, again, he lands his ultimate. But that's obviously difficult to do unless they enemy walks into it or you land a powerful stun.

Removing literally every slow on his kit would devestate him, unless he got ridiculous damage buffs, which would honestly feel bad for both sides. The scaling idea is cool, though I think the slow on his Q should always be stronger than his passive. And as a note, the Q coming back does NOT slow at all, assuming you're getting hit by only the return hit. It only slows people hit during the time it's expanded, when hitting an enemy or max range.

The W one could be feasible, but would be pretty odd overall, and would lower a lot of the skill needed to play Ekko, since it's one of the biggest things to rely on in his kit, both for counterplay and skill cap. Honestly they'd have to lower the stun at that point, or lower damage on his kit, for the ease of use it would provide, and overall it would probably be a bad decision.

ekko is the third highest dps assassin

the reason you see him do no damage is because of retard builds with zero ap

full rotation is more than enough to 100-0 carrys

only beaten by full ap evelyn and rengar

Reposer2 votes

You can't honestly one-shot any carries if you're on equal terms, unless you hit your ultimate, which isn't easy to do if they're even somewhat mobile/flash/displace you etc etc. That or if it's endgame builds and they're too stupid to have built a defensive item like Merc Scim, Maw, or Steraks, and even then it usually takes an ignite to take them down if it's an in-and-out teamfight situation, where you have to ult out almost immediately to stay alive.

He has good sustained damage, like I said, due to his W passive and innate auto speed, combined with the relatively low Q CD. But he has nowhere near the burst of most any other assassin, in an instant of damage. Talon, Zed, Evelynn, Rengar, Kha'Zix, Fizz, Kassadin, Katarina, they all outdamage Ekko by miles in their intended instances. And I'm talking about full AP builds here, yknow, the kinds that I generally run. If you're ahead then by all means you will absolutely shred the enemy team, and honestly I think Ekko's one of the best assassins for snowballing, because if you can play him properly it's much easier to pick someone with Ekko than it is with someone like Talon or Katarina, with safety to boot. But on an even playing field, assuming optimal builds, other assassins bring more damage to the table when they need to, you know, assassinate.

Ekko plays closely to mage/assassin, and is similar to Diana in terms of kill-speed, doing tons of damage but needing to stick to the target to actually do it, which is counter intuitive to the general assassin role. His ult is generally taken out of the equation when talking about his damage output, because with it, he definitely turns the tide of almost any fight, and it gives a gigantic burst of damage unmatched by most other assassins. However, it's too unwieldy, and honestly the only times it's gonna be used is during a big teamfight (You're not assassinating there) where people are getting CC locked straight into it, or in a lane, where you're more likely to be able to position yourself for an ultimate during a skirmish. But with having a fairly low AoE, and being telegraphed to the enemies, if you get hit by it you're not paying attention or you're bad, and you deserve the damage.

But remember, his ultimate is not just for damage, he desperately needs to hold onto it because of how risky his playstyle is, being his only true escape if he messes up an engage, thus removing any possibility for the damage later in a fight, until it's off cooldown.

Gigahappytown1 votes

{quoted}

You can't honestly one-shot any carries if you're on equal terms, unless you hit your ultimate, which isn't easy to do if they're even somewhat mobile/flash/displace you etc etc. That or if it's endgame builds and they're too stupid to have built a defensive item like Merc Scim, Maw, or Steraks, and even then it usually takes an ignite to take them down if it's an in-and-out teamfight situation, where you have to ult out almost immediately to stay alive.

He has good sustained damage, like I said, due to his W passive and innate auto speed, combined with the relatively low Q CD. But he has nowhere near the burst of most any other assassin, in an instant of damage. Talon, Zed, Evelynn, Rengar, Kha'Zix, Fizz, Kassadin, Katarina, they all outdamage Ekko by miles in their intended instances. And I'm talking about full AP builds here, yknow, the kinds that I generally run. If you're ahead then by all means you will absolutely shred the enemy team, and honestly I think Ekko's one of the best assassins for snowballing, because if you can play him properly it's much easier to pick someone with Ekko than it is with someone like Talon or Katarina, with safety to boot. But on an even playing field, assuming optimal builds, other assassins bring more damage to the table when they need to, you know, assassinate.

Ekko plays closely to mage/assassin, and is similar to Diana in terms of kill-speed, doing tons of damage but needing to stick to the target to actually do it, which is counter intuitive to the general assassin role. His ult is generally taken out of the equation when talking about his damage output, because with it, he definitely turns the tide of almost any fight, and it gives a gigantic burst of damage unmatched by most other assassins. However, it's too unwieldy, and honestly the only times it's gonna be used is during a big teamfight (You're not assassinating there) where people are getting CC locked straight into it, or in a lane, where you're more likely to be able to position yourself for an ultimate during a skirmish. But with having a fairly low AoE, and being telegraphed to the enemies, if you get hit by it you're not paying attention or you're bad, and you deserve the damage.

But remember, his ultimate is not just for damage, he desperately needs to hold onto it because of how risky his playstyle is, being his only true escape if he messes up an engage, thus removing any possibility for the damage later in a fight, until it's off cooldown.

full rotation deals somewhere around 1800 damage with lich bane and 600 ap not counting

ap ekkos problem is hes high skillcap high risk and high reward

while almost every other assassin excluding zed is low skillcap low risk and high reward

thats the problem with trying to give utility to a class thats designed to only do 1 thing

LankPants4 votes

while almost every other assassin excluding zed is low skillcap low risk and high reward

Don't know why you're excluding Zed, he's the definition of low risk/high reward and his skillcap is massively overblown.

Troll for Trump3 votes

Zed Talon still probably have more dps.

Do you mean dueling?

Not xPeke3 votes

Except since when is an assassin's role to be highest dps? It's not.

His role as an assassin isn't as straightforward are most other assassins. He can still 100-0 though most of the time it requires him to stun the target, and to not have fallen behind. He is more of a skirmisher/fighter assassin and his utility is very much needed.

Assassin are meant to 100-0 as fast as possible, and theres many many other champions being able to do it quicker and more efficiently than Ekko.

He does alot of damage but nothing compared to eve and rengar like you said, or talon, fizz, list goes on mate. LB hello?

Love how people complain about Ekko's utility and ultimate while champs like Fizz or Zed have even more mobility and juking skills. Fizz is untargetable every 3 seconds lmao.

People are just hating on Ekko without being objective enough to notice other things.

DeusVult3 votes

Ekko is not an assassin

he is a skirmishing fighter

Karma Deified4 votes

Ekko is a Melee/Ranged/Jungler/Mage/Assassin/Tank/Fighter/Support

Maximum Morde22 votes

All I'm hearing is Nerf Ekko.

IronicGentleman18 votes

You know why that's what you're hearing? Because he's too strong. And the OP's solution is probably, in all honesty, the only decent option.

Athenes Lulu6 votes

Well that is kind of what OP was trying to get across.

Nerf Tank Ekko, buff AP Ekko.

Szunray5 votes

It's not buffing ap Ekko though. If anything, it's nerfing AP Ekko along with Tank Ekko, unless you somehow build over 600 ap in the time it would take you to hit the appropriate level

RiotAD Yuumi19 votes

This isn't a bad idea...

Nebuul1 votes

I don't understand why this isn't done more frequently. It could also be done on certain items. For example,

item 3025 Scale the damage based on bonus armor item 1401 item 1409 item 1413 Scale damage based on bonus health and/or armor item 3053 Scale the base attack damage bonus based on bonus health

Icestar11861 votes

Attack <-> Defense scaling, purely statwise, has been historically hard to balance (See: Atma's Impaler never being good). It might not work well for those items. Frankly, I'm a little surprised Titanic Hydra worked out as well as it did.

Nebuul3 votes

It doesn't need to scale hard for tanks, it needs to scale in such a way as to focus use.

For example, if Iceborn Gauntlet gave 1% base attack damage on the sheen proc per 1 bonus armor, up to 150%. Then tanks would pretty easily cap it, but most marksmen would only be pulling 70-80%. Sterak's could be 1% base AD per 40 bonus life capped at the current 25%, so max effect at 1000 bonus life. So on and so forth.

Just because it scales from a stat doesn't mean it needs to scale infinitely, but it can be a doorway to effectiveness.

FastAsHeck15 votes

Okay first of all I'm someone who likes AP Ekko and I'm all for tank Ekko being gutted (so he stops being permabanned)

This is a bad idea, and here's why: If you do this, you're making AP Ekko feast or famine. Let me explain: if he is ahead, his massive utility from his item (and consequently AP) advantage would make him insanely hard to shut down. However if he is behind, he will simply be useless. Remember that his base damage got nerfed hard too.

So tl;dr: if you are behind as AP Ekko, you have literally nothing to offer.

Side note: His stun duration scaling with AP would be super awkward, because he relies heavily on the stun in the early game where he has no AP.

Audiomancy4 votes

if you are behind as AP Ekko, you have literally nothing to offer.

You could say the same with Leblanc, Katarina or Akali.

LeprechaunJinx3 votes

That's more about poor design of those champions though than a reason to make Ekko like them. Feast/Famine paradigms in League just don't work because of how oppressive they can be while ahead and how detrimental they are to your team while behind because of how kills and deaths work in the game. Every kill you get on an enemy grants you gold and experience as well as time while the opposing player is locked in the respawn screen. Any champion who gets really good at killing champions by killing in general results in consistently shutting champions out of the game for extending periods of time, making the one who is dead fall behind even further and the same is true when reversed.

Troll for Trump3 votes

And in games it's either "useless LB/kat/Akali" or "WTF BROKEN BURST LB/KAT/AKALI".

You don't want to add another champ to that list.

Sqkerg2 votes

Thats like every assassin ever, except for Ekko... The thing is that Ekko would still be THE utility assassin, not just another utility tank.

JusticePauldrons9 votes

Really the issue with Ekko is pretty obvious. He is meant as an assassin/skirmisher, but he has too much thrown into his kit that allows him to succeed in any role.

Lets go ahead and count em off.

  • Ranged Slow
  • AoE Team stun/Slow
  • Dash
  • Increased move speed
  • An ultimate that allows him to escape death and deal damage.
  • 3 hit passive for strong damage

So out of all of these, what should an assassin not have that would allow him to succeed as a tank?

Ranged Slow AoE Team stun/Slow

Now I understand what you might be thinking "Hey a slow isn't a big deal! The stun requires a setup!" and while normally I would agree with you, these abilities once tied in with the rest of his kit allows him too much room to succeed in any role.

The utility provided by his dash and increased movespeed already provides a ton of sticking power on it's own. Once you couple those with his Q slow he can stick to his opponents a little too well, now throw in the aoe slow + stun effect of his W and you have a guy who can easily peel or lock down an enemy team.... like a tank would do.

Now throw in his passive 3-hit. This allows him to be rewarded for staying alive in extended engagements while doing plenty of damage.

**So how do we fix it? **

Given that the problem isn't really his mobility (assassins need that) we should target his ability to lock people down

  • Reduce the slow from his Q to a much more manageable number, it is a large, relatively spammable aoe ability. Using this for damage would be one thing (it already provides a free 2 hits for his passive as well) but preventing the enemy from moving late game is pretty annoying.

  • There is a few things we could do about Parallel Convergence. Removing the stun entirely for a stronger slow would make sense, or remove the slow portion so that just ending up in the AoE isn't a guarantee you will be stunned. Another problem solver could be simply reducing the range of the ability. If it was easier to see coming it wouldn't be so annoying to get hit by out of the blue.

"I think he needs that lock down to succeed! What else could we change?"

The only other suggestion I can think of at this point would be to target his scaling to insure that Tank Ekko will not be a thing.

  • Reduce his health per level to properly coincide with just how much his kit provides. If tank Ekko is the problem, make it harder to go tank.

  • Dramatically lower the base damage from his passive, and increase the scaling it would get from AP to compensate. This insures that he will not deal a ton of free damage when building tank, but allows for his AP focused builds to remain largely the same.

ChaosThief2 votes

The stun is honestly what I would hit as well; it's either incredibly useful and basically turns a losing fight into an ace, or so obvious it's coming that you can never land it.

What to change it into though is a good discussion.

rtbf221479707 votes

It would be sick as a slow time where everything moves slower even projectiles... And his passive is the problem. It's 80% of his damage and requires practically no AP to be effective.

xxxMadLionxxx6 votes

Its not just Ekko. Assassins by nature have insane base damage through abilities. They are meant to be squishy so they can do tons of damage before dying.

hence build an assassin tanky is somewhat broken because you are bypassing their inherent weakness.

Look at tank Fizz for example.

RespectPlus2 votes

Not a bad idea but... his early will be too weak

Masala Chai2 votes

Can't be worse than Diana's early.

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