@RiotRepertoir devourer changes

Potato Doc·Aug 13, 2015·12 votes·4,341 views

I noticed alittle while ago in a thread you posted asking jungler thoughts on the devourer enchantment because you werent a jungle expert and wanted some input with no promises on anything taken

If you guys are going to nerf devourer I feel like the nerf should actually be aimed at the interactions with abilities that are making it over powered. A great example is shyvana. Her Q basically becomes a triple attack with the sated devourer because the 2nd hit is technically an on hit effect dropping obscene amounts of damage while she still has insane clear speeds. Meanwhile more niche junglers like irelia rely heavily on the interactions with sated to help them have an impact. (yes im a huge jungle irelia fan with the sated) The reason the devourer is strong is not its base stats but the abilities that can be paired with it. Some champions and their abilities are justified with the sated while others aren't.

TL:DR Change the interactions with the troublesome abilities instead of nerfing the item or abilities.

48 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 13, 201510 votes

At this point, I'd say it's not out of the question that Devourer was addressed on the champion level rather than the item level itself (assuming it needs adjustment, that is). As you've mentioned there are champions it doesn't go crazy on, and that the item's current power level pushes into viability.

KingsgraveAug 13, 20154 votes

{quoted}

At this point, I'd say it's not out of the question that Devourer was addressed on the champion level rather than the item level itself (assuming it needs adjustment, that is). As you've mentioned there are champions it doesn't go crazy on, and that the item's current power level pushes into viability.

Honestly not a single Sated champion is that broken. The majority of them are easy to abuse early by other types. I like that it makes Jax and Aatrox jungle somewhat viable.

Dr PoroAug 13, 20153 votes

So... 7 out of 10 best junglers being devourer junglers (the other 3 abusing runeglaive) doesn't mean it's just a little bit OP?

KingsgraveAug 13, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Poro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Pl4auOZj,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-13T15:21:04.661+0000)

So... 7 out of 10 best junglers being devourer junglers (the other 3 abusing runeglaive) doesn't mean it's just a little bit OP?

So lets just nerf everything that has a high success rate?

LuggAug 13, 20155 votes

When it's that obvious, yes.

KingsgraveAug 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

When it's that obvious, yes.

I fail to see how it's "obvious" they are OP or even the best. Just because they have high winrates doesn't mean they are "the best junglers"

CrazedPorcupineAug 14, 20151 votes

for the people downvoting this post, don't forget that Fiddlesticks has had one of the highest winrates in the jungle since season 1, and he's not considered meta, at all. Just because something has a high winrate, doesn't mean that a champion is OP.

IcyPepperAug 13, 20151 votes

"Abusing" runeglaive? :/

Are they not junglers? D:

Doctor JarvisAug 13, 20155 votes

I agree. Xin, Kayle, Yi, Shyv, Udyr, and others are NOT overpowered. The problem is clearly the item. No one complained about these champs before the devourer change (well, a lot of people complained about Yi, but it was accepted they were wrong before) because it was unnecessary; sure, they could carry games, but they were carry champions, so its ok. They aren't carrying games anymore though, they're just destroying them, and Riot thinks the problem is the champions?

KingsgraveAug 13, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Doctor Jarvis,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Pl4auOZj,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2015-08-13T16:43:56.854+0000)

I agree. Xin, Kayle, Yi, Shyv, Udyr, and others are NOT overpowered. The problem is clearly the item. No one complained about these champs before the devourer change (well, a lot of people complained about Yi, but it was accepted they were wrong before) because it was unnecessary; sure, they could carry games, but they were carry champions, so its ok. They aren't carrying games anymore though, they're just destroying them, and Riot thinks the problem is the champions?

I don't think the item is even remotely problematic.

windwolf777Aug 14, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Doctor Jarvis,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Pl4auOZj,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2015-08-13T16:43:56.854+0000)

I agree. Xin, Kayle, Yi, Shyv, Udyr, and others are NOT overpowered. The problem is clearly the item. No one complained about these champs before the devourer change (well, a lot of people complained about Yi, but it was accepted they were wrong before) because it was unnecessary; sure, they could carry games, but they were carry champions, so its ok. They aren't carrying games anymore though, they're just destroying them, and Riot thinks the problem is the champions?

I agree with you 100%. I think that MasterYi was fine before sated and that he shouldn't be touched. Nerf sated (preferably in how many stacks it takes to be sated), then see how he is. This is also because of the fact that he received no buffs of any kind aside from sated. (I mean, half my posts are probably defending yi as he's my main.)

RetillinAug 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

At this point, I'd say it's not out of the question that Devourer was addressed on the champion level rather than the item level itself (assuming it needs adjustment, that is). As you've mentioned there are champions it doesn't go crazy on, and that the item's current power level pushes into viability.

Isn't this the same with any item? Cinderhulk made Sej (for example) a terrifying beast. Yet she AND Cinderhulk were nerfed. Why do you think this is different? This is the 3rd or 4th attempt at an item to fill this role out of the jungle, and with each one before Riot has admitted it's mistake and either Veigar'd it or just removed it. Why do you think this time Riot has it "right"?

TaigongwangAug 13, 20154 votes

But if you address it on a champion level, in the situation where they dont have this, they are far weaker. It is a great item in idea, but it becomes extremely powerful in the hands of some champions. Shyvana with her Burnout/Flame Breath proc on auto attacks comes to mind. A phantom hit of those two effects takes chunks out of anything that isnt a tank. Shyvana isnt a great example though, because she isnt that badly effected by Devourer getting nerfed.

The unique passive from the upgraded form needs to be looked at, because the item is generally fine otherwise. Phantom Hit is just so situtationally powerful that it needs work on such a cheap and readily available item.

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 13, 20156 votes

But if you address it on a champion level, in the situation where they dont have this, they are far weaker.

Yep, that's why addressing Devourer in this fashion would be risky, and would probably only work if it could be done to a very small number of champions.

SaltyKrackaAug 13, 20155 votes

Or, again, you could address the feature of Devourer that makes these champions so hard to balance and nerf phantom hit.

Malzahard ModeAug 13, 20152 votes

However, if they nerf the phantom hit, then a lot of these off-meta junglers who are now more viable as a result of Sated Devourer suddenly lose the edge that allowed them to succeed, They would rather take the few that are overly oppressive down a peg, than potentially limiting or removing a lot of the diversity that has come into play since it was instituted into the game.

SaltyKrackaAug 13, 20152 votes

Name to me these "off-meta" junglers who are more viable, and we shall perhaps see what can be done (or whether anybody even cares if they're good in the jungle).

Malzahard ModeAug 13, 20154 votes

Vayne - dbl proc silver bullets. Kayle AoE clear, Tf - whatever the 4 card bonus is and i believe his color cards. Teemo (not often but dbl poison). Weaker junglers who now hit like trucks, Jax, Irelia, Aatrox, Trundle Gnar. Ones who hit like trucks who now hit like Dwayne The Rock Johnson, - Udyr, Shyvana, Yi, Xin Zhao.

If the answer for fixing any of these is "Deals less damage to monsters" then that's just a cop out of a balance change because of one item

SaltyKrackaAug 13, 20153 votes

Vayne: Nobody cares. Kayle: Needs to be deleted from the jungle, also THE main target of the phantom hit nerf. TF: Was always shit in the jungle, always will be. Doesn't matter. Teemo: Nobody cares. Jax: Not a good jungler in the first place, also nobody cares. Irelia: Needs nerfs anyways. Aatrox: Needs buffs anyways. Trundle: ...Who the fuck builds Devourer on Trundle? Also probably in need of buffs regardless of Devourer. Gnar: Fuck Gnar. Nobody cares. Shyv/Yi/Xin: Big targets of the Phantom Hit nerf.

Malzahard ModeAug 13, 20152 votes

I would love to know how you possess the knowledge of the opinions of every single member of the community. Also, just because these may not be the most popular picks right now, does not mean they will not become more popular as people continue to experiment and play with the item.

Ask yourself, is it worth removing a wide pool of diversity that has come into the game, both at high and low levels of play, just to hit the few champs who have gotten stronger from it? Or is it better to nerf those champions rather than the item itself?

TaigongwangAug 13, 20154 votes

Have you not been around for the first incarnations of Feral Flare? They make certain champions incredibly powerful, and then the champions who abuse it get nerfed. When Riot realizes that the item breaks the jungle at the end of the season, they remove it and get slight compensation buffs to the junglers who now need it because they got nerfed for the sake of 'diversity.' The one or two odd ball junglers that pop up because of it are usually in need of buffs anyways. It just gives them a crutch to lean on.

Yes, it opens diversity. Yes, it is interesting. The item itself is just not healthy for the game on the other hand, and Riot has realized this many a time. Devourer will get nerfed or removed come the end of worlds, I would bet money on that. A lot of money.

Also. Vayne Jungle is a terrible thing. It doesnt work. You are better off buying the Devourer in lane than jungler her. THAT is how broken that item is by the way.

Malzahard ModeAug 13, 20151 votes

I was here for it. And knowing that my HOPE is that Riot will not make the same mistake of simply removing the item like they did with Feral Flare. That advantage devourer has over flare is it doesn't infinitely stack like flare did. And it's not overly unhealthy for the game. It super buffs maybe 4% of the roster, buffs another 4% and allows some more to try jungling (not all successful in that venture).

As for vayne, i've seen it pulled off successfully in plat/diamond play. Not everyone can do it, but there are those who can. One idea for off jungle users of the item is Pre-sated transformation, stacks fall off after every 2 minutes, as to prevent them from abusing it outside of the jungle

TaigongwangAug 13, 20154 votes

Stacking it isnt the issue. It takes a good bit of time to stack it. The problem is the Phantom Hit passive. Unless that gets a nerf, the item will remain as it is.

The passive is a GREAT idea. Its awesome. The thing is, certain champions abuse it so hard that its a one slot item that has the potential power of two slots. Jax, Vayne, Kayle, Shyvana. For them, its such a massive artificial Attack Speed boost that it gives them a MASSIVE jump in DPS.

Sadly, the passive IS the item. The magic damage is great and all, so is the attack speed, but the passive makes the item gold and slot efficient. This is the problem Feral Flare has suffered each time its existed. The passive is far too powerful on some champions, but on others it just barely bumps them into viability.

Is this a problem with the champions? No. Its the item. Which is why the item keeps getting removed after Riot tries to make it work patch after patch, champion nerf after nerf. This is what, the third time this has existed in some form? And the problem remains? I think that qualifies as unhealthy for the game.

RetillinAug 13, 20151 votes

But (as I posted else where in this thread), the Feral Flare items are never balanced. So you are going to go through the whole work of balancing 7+ champions instead of dealing with the true issue? Not only would nerfing them (the easy thing to do) kill any "diversity" for them to lane, it still doesn't address the main issue.

TaigongwangAug 13, 20152 votes

Then dont do it to the few edge case champions that abuse it? Take a look at the item itself? The edge cases exist because of the item, not the other way around. The champions were designed and balanced without this item. Feral Flare and all of its incarnations have always presented the same problem, yet the balance team goes about it by nerfing the champions while gently tapping the item. Until it gets removed at the end of the season. This happens every single time. Maybe its time to admit that the item itself is in need of work.

AkaliholicAug 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yep, that's why addressing Devourer in this fashion would be risky, and would probably only work if it could be done to a very small number of champions.

Unfortunately, the two most effective users of Devourer; Shyvana and Kayle, have already been nerfed to the ground in situations where they do not have the item that approach would be really unhealthy. Devourer really needs to rely more on it's base stats and on-hit damage and less on it's unique effect. In that way, we can return some diversity by allowing weaker users of it to receive buffs, and to avoid further nerfing of champs that are already fairly useless without it.

Jesus is SaviorAug 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yep, that's why addressing Devourer in this fashion would be risky, and would probably only work if it could be done to a very small number of champions.

How about you don't?

If you were going to address items on a "champion level" you would have disabled Runeglaive on Ezreal, the ONLY champion that was abusing it in lane (and "one champion" is the very definition of "small number of champions"). Instead you nerfed the shit out of it and made it a "damage to jungle monsters" item instead of a "combat stats" item.

So if you didn't do it for Runeglaive, don't do it for devourer. You ruined my Runeglaive because of Ezreal. Now go ruin devourer because of certain abuse cases. You're not allowed to fix the abuse cases on a champion-by-champion basis. You have to nerf the entire item. Just like Runeglaive.

Potato DocAug 14, 20151 votes

The problem that runeglaive had that devourer doesnt is that runeglave is like sheen, you cant selectively target runeglaves passive since all abilities proc it. Meanwhile devourer passive is selectively applied to on hit and also every other attack, so you dont get added auto attacks (with the exception of yi and shy) Therefore the requirements for an ability to be used with it are much more limiting. You can then attack abilities that abuse devourer (in the similar way that the ez runeglaive interaction was unintended) while leaving it still viable to others.

I understand your anger but it doesnt mean everything else has to be nerfed because one item was incredibly broken on a champion. Instead of complaining about runeglaive being "runed" as you say it is, try coming up with a way that runeglaive could get that power back without being broken on ezreal. It will take a lot of discussion with others and testing/ implementation to help get it to a balanced state, which in like manner, is similar to riots patches. Plus power swings with each and every patch. See olaf and urgot. Very small changes made huge impacts on them turning them from "olafed" to "meta". What you think is weak could suddenly become a very strong point in the game from a very small buff. Anyways I digress.

TL:DR runeglave couldnt be selectively targeted, devourer can

Jesus is SaviorAug 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

TL:DR runeglave couldnt be selectively targeted, devourer can

They could have added a note to Ezreal's Q: "Cannot be converted to magic damage"

Boom, half the problem gone (he'd still have waveclear if he took it in lane, but he wouldn't have his 1.5k magic damage Qs).

Potato DocAug 15, 20151 votes

To quote runeglaive UNIQUE - SPELLBLADE: After using an ability, your next basic attack deals 100% base AD + (30% AP) bonus magic damage. (1.5 second cooldown). To change ezreal to the point where runeglaive wouldnt be extremely destructive on him, they would have had to completely removed the on hit part of his Q. With the no magic damage change you just switched it to mixed damage on both his kit and his q alone, which is troublesome as shown by jax, darius, kayle, and anyone else under that category. Making it a nightmare to try and itemize against. By allowing ezreals Q to change from physical or magical it allows him to fill the role of an AP or ADC making him versatile.

If you want to argue this, Lich bane has the same proc requirements as runeglaive. Then you take a recent ultimate bravery that I just did as urgot which required me to go boots, WotA, then lich bane (lich bane was the last item i was able to get before the game ended). I scored 2.4 k of magic damage only off lich bane procs alone, which for only having roughly 150 ap means I got it off a lot in those last 3 minutes of the game.

They had to change the full scope of it because there was no simpler way about it. It was always going to be a problem, now its still pretty strong but not the "cheese OP omg" that players wanted and there are better routes that are safer and stronger on ezreal/ there are better mid picks.

Jesus is SaviorAug 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

To quote runeglaive UNIQUE - SPELLBLADE: After using an ability, your next basic attack deals 100% base AD + (30% AP) bonus magic damage. (1.5 second cooldown). To change ezreal to the point where runeglaive wouldnt be extremely destructive on him, they would have had to completely removed the on hit part of his Q. With the no magic damage change you just switched it to mixed damage on both his kit and his q alone, which is troublesome as shown by jax, darius, kayle, and anyone else under that category. Making it a nightmare to try and itemize against. By allowing ezreals Q to change from physical or magical it allows him to fill the role of an AP or ADC making him versatile.

If you want to argue this, Lich bane has the same proc requirements as runeglaive. Then you take a recent ultimate bravery that I just did as urgot which required me to go boots, WotA, then lich bane (lich bane was the last item i was able to get before the game ended). I scored 2.4 k of magic damage only off lich bane procs alone, which for only having roughly 150 ap means I got it off a lot in those last 3 minutes of the game.

They had to change the full scope of it because there was no simpler way about it. It was always going to be a problem, now its still pretty strong but not the "cheese OP omg" that players wanted and there are better routes that are safer and stronger on ezreal/ there are better mid picks.

Mixed damage means he can't build penetration.

Potato DocAug 15, 20151 votes

If thats your best argument against this then i guess im done here

ErockandrollAug 14, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=That Evelynn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Pl4auOZj,comment-id=0000000200000004,timestamp=2015-08-14T03:10:57.682+0000)

How about you don't?

If you were going to address items on a "champion level" you would have disabled Runeglaive on Ezreal, the ONLY champion that was abusing it in lane (and "one champion" is the very definition of "small number of champions"). Instead you nerfed the shit out of it and made it a "damage to jungle monsters" item instead of a "combat stats" item.

So if you didn't do it for Runeglaive, don't do it for devourer. You ruined my Runeglaive because of Ezreal. Now go ruin devourer because of certain abuse cases. You're not allowed to fix the abuse cases on a champion-by-champion basis. You have to nerf the entire item. Just like Runeglaive.

I don't think it was so much Ezreal as it was being taken in lane. That's like saying Shyvana and Hecarim ruined Cinderhulk. But really they just ruined top lane Cinderhulk.

Cinderhulk and Runeglaive were tailored for AP and Tank Junglers. Because their Jungle items, and were designed to help said junglers clear their camps. Warrior and Devourer didn't need that because their stats inherently increased clear speed.

The problem with Ez and Runeglaive is that Runeglaive, gave AP ez something he shouldn't have. (copious amounts of waveclear) But Sated's utility is something that AS Junglers are suppose to have. (Better on hit effects)

thumbnail9Aug 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yep, that's why addressing Devourer in this fashion would be risky, and would probably only work if it could be done to a very small number of champions.

IMO just leave it.

If you ever want melee based attacker to gain a place you have to first get people used to them being dangerous and then you can give them damage.

However, if you were to change something nerf it to 1.5x the effect on damage only. Sated is an item that these particular junglers absolutely need to be a threat.

ErockandrollAug 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yep, that's why addressing Devourer in this fashion would be risky, and would probably only work if it could be done to a very small number of champions.

That may be true. But in that case, we need to consider the opposite end of the spectrum. There are still a fair amount of AS champs who would be lagging behind, regardless of the items balancing.

If your consider nerfing the item, You should also Consider buffing champions like Aatrox or Noctern who fall short of their counterparts.

WiegrafOfValorAug 13, 20151 votes

I think the main problem here is how often it procs on-hit effects, and how the AS it provides help champions abuse it. Just nerf the AS value, boost the initial damage and increase the amount to become sated as well changing the passive from 2 AA to trigger to 3 AA to trigger.

Here's why: By nerfing AS and buffing the initial damage will be leaving the early clears mostly the way it is, but later on the nerf on AS will be stoping those abusives procs, on top of that we have the proc only on the third AA, throwing of vayne abusers. But still be rewarding because of the damage buff, if start with 45 and sated with 100, on the third AA you will be dealing +200 dmg just with sated alone.

Vistha KaiAug 13, 20153 votes

Why do you at Riot always want to treat symptoms instead of the source?

The only possible outcome is that you'd nerf a champion's laning power - which in most cases already was sub-par - to make a broken item seem a bit less broken on those champions.

I'm sorry, but that is just a plain wrong design philosophy.

PS. How many times do you need to re-create Feral Flare and fail to understand it simply doesn't work and/or isn't healthy?

Potato DocAug 14, 20151 votes

Not necessarily. If you target the interaction and not numbers then it wouldnt hurt any laning power at all. Plus devourer really cant be used in lane effectively so by correcting the interactions between devourer and certain abilities then champions laning phase wouldnt be harmed at all.

Vistha KaiAug 14, 20151 votes

Frankly, no.

How would they change Shyvana without changing Devourer? Nerf her. How would they change Xin without changing Devourer? Nerf him.

The only thing that wouldn't be a nerf to their laning would be a damage cap to monsters, but that's not the problem here. The problem is that everybody with Sated Devourer turns into a super carry the moment they are allowed to deal damage to anybody for even a second.

Potato DocAug 15, 20151 votes

Change the way shyvana's Q interacts, instead of the second hit being an "on hit" you could change it to be an additional attack

How they can change xin without changing devourer is change his Q and W passive stacks from "on hit" applications to actual auto attacks done,

I mean you are so convinced the item has to be nerfed that you can't realize ability interactions actually can be changed. If you cant realize this then no matter how much I try you wont change your mind and im not going to bother. Stop being salty and realize the item is far more balanced then you want to say

Vistha KaiAug 21, 20151 votes

You are right. They should change every champion in the game that would ever buy the item, because said item has so toxic mechanic it requires for Riot to change every champion for it to be even remotely balanced.

SaltyKrackaAug 13, 20153 votes

{quoted}

At this point, I'd say it's not out of the question that Devourer was addressed on the champion level rather than the item level itself (assuming it needs adjustment, that is). As you've mentioned there are champions it doesn't go crazy on, and that the item's current power level pushes into viability.

Or you could just nerf Phantom hit like you should already have.

Dr PoroAug 13, 20153 votes

So you will nerf Warwick Kayle XinZhao Udyr and Shyvana instead of just nerfing one item?

I'm sorry, but with the top 10 junglers being dominated by devourer champs, only a few runeglaive abusers, is not a healthy meta. You think cinderhulk release was bad? This is way worse. The difference here is that there are currently 2 OP items. We have devourer which is abused by many champs, and there is Runeglaive which is abused by only a few. Both of these items make a bunch of junglers "viable" that can't survive without these items. However, being "viable" is not enough. Not when there's a handful of junglers that are GODLIKE.

In the meanwhile, the highest winrate Warrior jungler is Shaco at #12. The highest "position" Warrior jungler is Vi at #18. What do you think about this, RiotRepertoir? This is even worse than the tank junglers were in the times of juggernaut.

Champion SkinAug 13, 20151 votes

The eventual problems with nerfing champions based on Devourer is that... well if that champion has other roles outside the jungle they are somewhat being forced to go to the jungle and get Devourer as their kit is balanced around the champion getting sated devourer (Devourer doesn't work all that well in lane even if you can take smite and build it in lane)

And I am always worried when champions get balanced (nerfed) around an item that the champion will be left in the gutter if that item is then deemed to strong and gets nerfed

foinhasAug 14, 20152 votes

@repertoir

And what if your coders just fixed the damn code? Right now SD is doing something that shouldn't do. The phantom hit is considered "on-attack" when it should be "on-hit". Fix this and there goes most of the problems with this items (reducing the number of attacks dor something to happen, like xin Q/W, shiv Q, Yi passive/cd on Q, ...)

LynxonyxAug 13, 20151 votes

Xin can build devourer as his only damage item, then go full tank, and still 3 shot any other tank.

Full tank with cc, a gap closer, and more damage than a full build ADC. Just doesn't seem right.

Kayle I don't see as a major problem, because of how squishy she is w/o her ult up.

The item should be high-risk/high-reward, on many champs it is no risk at all.

The worst culprits are Yi, Shyvana, xin, WW, and Udyr from my experiences.

LeonDemonOfDeathAug 14, 20151 votes

Also, buff the warrior enchantment. Try to make warrior more early game based while devourer is something to invest in. Make it a real choice of which one you're gonna pick, "Can I end this game fast with warrior, or should I build up my power with devourer." Possibly make it have something to do with pushing. (More damage to turrents) Just my 2 ip.

Potato DocAug 14, 20151 votes

The pushing power might be an interesting change to warriors to give it that unique click to it (since it is the only one without an actual passive) Personally I feel that warrior enchantment has its impact already. Im a heavy ganker type jungler and i love the early game power i get from warriors since I prefer assassin style play. In the end its up to riot to change it but currently im mostly fine with how the jungle items stand right now. (save some sated interactions)