This way, he would be a bit more balance, since number nerfs isn't enough. Just ignore the community's complain about it. They have already shut their mouth about various new occasions such as:
be needing nerfing
Ticking Death4 votesThanks for your input, but I think everything is pretty decent right now.
Edit: Lee Sin has always been a hard champ to balance. You don't think Riot has considered changing his Q to flat damage already? And his strengths revolve around making plays, which includes using his mobility to the fullest. It's not easy to ward hop effectively. So, if you have a problem with it, then congrats to the players that managed to frustrate you with it, because they practiced a lot, I bet.
Count Tobi2 votesMy only complaint with this is that 50% below win rate suggests a buff, I disagree strongly, end post.
Ticking Death1 votesRather than just flat out disagreeing, how about explaining WHY you disagree? And I never said that a win rate below 50% absolutely suggests a buff. I said that it suggests that she MIGHT need a buff. The win rate is compiled from across both normal and ranked games, so there are three possibilities that need to be considered:
The highest tiers of gameplay have win rates for Vayne that are higher than average (bringing her overall win rate up), which could suggest that she is a much stronger pick in the hands of an experienced player.
The lowest tiers of gameplay have win rates for Vayne that are lower than average (bringing her overall win rate down), which could suggest that she has a skill cap that most players cannot overcome easily.
Both low and high tiers of gameplay have equal win rates with Vayne, suggesting that a buff may be necessary to equalize her power with champions in the same role.
Additionally, since Vayne is a late game carry, her win rate could be low simply for the fact that trying to hold out until she out-scales her opponent's power is a generally unsuccessful strategy and is not likely to yield positive results (i.e. winning). There are also other considerations based on this fact:
People who pick Vayne are incapable of holding out until late game, which is when she reaches her highest potential -- teammates will either surrender or the enemy team will win before this occurs.
People who pick Vayne are completely capable of holding out until late game, but their teammates cannot coordinate or protect them until late game is reached -- teammates will either surrender or the enemy team will win before this occurs.
Some combination of the above two points, which suggests that Vayne's inherently poor early game and teammates' lack of either synergy or protective ability prevent Vayne players from making it to the late game, either because teammates have surrendered or the enemy team has won.
Vayne's inherently poor early game (especially due to her lack of wave clear) sets her behind her opponents in the early game and makes it very difficult for her to catch up and out-scale her enemies by the late game.
So, here's my argument for my statement about how Vayne's win rate suggests that she MIGHT need a buff: there are a lot of factors to consider regarding why Vayne's win rate is what it is -- simply saying that you disagree is not a valid argument against my claim.
Penguin Eclipse4 votesHow about removing ward hoping in general. It is a mechanic that should never have existed.
SEKAI3 votesNo, what can change Lee Sin to be way less annoying all we need is a different ulti on him.
That way his early power is kept, his mobility is kept, it's just that he loses 1 out of the jail card which he deserves that anyway.
Or if they really want to keep his R because idk kicking people in the face is probably fun who knows, then at least make his ulti have a wind up time so you can actually dodge the thing by positioning and he has the risk of missing it entirely, which is also fair given how humongous of a stat pool that thing is, with 0 drawbacks besides some 1 min cd, it needs to have something to trade it off.
And really a superior version of Ali's W ON TOP OF his mobility? How about no?
IcyPepper3 votesBut there ARE drawbacks! The energy cost is... oh... I mean, the base damage is.... Uh, the bonus AD scaling is... the cooldown? It can only affect one target... oh.
Kitten of Evil4 votesUh well... the drawback is... he can't cast it while hard CC'ed... or dead. Yep! That's it!
stuartk114 votes[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PjxoFygJ,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-03-02T08:23:40.341+0000)
Uh well... the drawback is... he can't cast it while hard CC'ed... or dead. Yep! That's it!
Next patch, Lee Sin's Tempest/Cripple (E) now removes all debuffs affecting him (think QSS). Energy Cost increased.
Ulquiorra9958 votesHis R actually has a windup time... but you are rooted while it lasts. Because flashing away from that insec kick would unnecessarily prevent Lee from making an LC$BIGPLAY.
Nyaruko Chan3 votesYes lets nerf the single most balanced jungler in the game. The only people who bitch about Lee Sin being op are the bronze 5 morons who dont understand how to even play the game. Lee Sin isnt even if a fucking top 3 pick right now. Hell hes not even a top 5 pick. The top 5 jungle picks right now are Rek'Sai, Vi, Nidalee, Jarven, and Rengar. Lee Sin is perfectly fine the way he is for a large number of reasons.
One, he falls off to non-existence late game. Meaning he turns into nothing more then a tanky guy who's only goal is to try and InSec the enemy adc into your team. Two, his ward hoping is extremely hard to do and requires a massive understanding of the champ to pull of. Lee Sin is one of the hardest champs in the game to master. His learning curve is massive and you will never be able to do anything crazy unless you've put a lot of time into him. Three, Lee Sin is literally shut down by any form of CC. Oh the enemy Lee Sin just tried to ward hop and InSec our ADC? Oh well ill just press Q or E as Annie and watch him die.
Like he has extremely easy counter play. Any CC will stop him in his tracks. Lee Sin's only well strength is in his users ability to outplay people. If the guy using him doesnt understand how to fully use him and outplay his opponents then hes useless. Stop complaining that you got wrecked by a good Lee Sin player and accept the fact that you got outplayed and try to learn from that and get better.
Fuck its like you people can do nothing but bitch and whine for unneeded nerfs instead of just accepting you suck and need to get better.
SEKAI6 votesIf he is the pinnacle of "balance" then almost everyone who is doing the same job as him are in shiet zone,
Turns out he is actually not standing on the middle line hey!
Out of the top 5 picks, 3 are broken and 1 is pretty close atm so there's that. Do you have to compare Lee to broken champs to justify that he is balanced? Isn't that a little extreme wouldn't you agree?
he falls off to non-existence late game.
This is no longer S2, get on time.
his ward hoping is extremely hard to do
Please, even escaping the enemy chase in the jungle with no ulti as Yi is way harder to pull off than that. 2 button press while your cursor is not moving is hardly worth the "extremely hard to do" note, it just isn't. And it's not like you can't mod your mapping to make it even easier.
His learning curve is massive
Only if you have some learning issues, Lee is actually known to have fairly low skill floor if you haven't noticed after all this years. If you want high skill floor? Try idk Naut, at least before the next patch anyway where he is getting a buff, don't know how it will turn out tho.
If you're talking about skill cap, then yea he has a quite a high cap. But high skill ceiling is no excuse for extra power, even Dota, where its balance philosophy is "combat broken with broken" knows this idea very well and reworked Invoker during the transition to Dota2.
Lee Sin is literally shut down by any form of CC
Are you kidding me, everyone dies to intense cc this is no news. But if you focus all your cc on him what about the objectives, the adc, apc and assassin? If you don't completely lock him down he has 2 dashes, 1 aoe slow and 1 team knockup, I guess *clearly *he has the bad end of the kit in terms of escaping sticky situation right?
he has extremely easy counter play
I wouldn't say a kit that is almost twice the standard size is "extremely easy" to counterplay, were you living under a rock or something? The reason why it's no bad idea ever to first pick Lee is because his concept revolves around the idea of "safety" hence he was designed to not be able to be counterplayed or counterpicked by default. He is a generalist at his core, which is fine. What's not fine is him out-performing specialists in their own fields, that is why people run into problems with this guy.
Lee Sin's only well strength is in his users ability to outplay people.
You know, outplay is actually just bonus that comes after at least surviving first. When everyone instantly links Lee to Outplay, while simply skipping the first step instinctually, there is just something seriously wrong in that.
Tbh I had to conclude that you're trolling, I am sorry if I bit the bait too hard on this one aye.
Nyaruko Chan1 votesYour actually an idiot so im not going to bother trying to explain to you all the reasosn why your wrong. If you want to keep bitching about a perfectly balanced general safe pick jungler who isnt even in the top 5 best junglers right now and has a non-existent late game aside from being a decent tank with a lot of utility and a strong ult then feel free to.
Also yeah using his ward hoping perfectly and fast enough to able to maximize his mobility and ability to appear in the enemy team and kick the ADC into his team requires a lot of skill and practice with the champ. Please stop acting like hes so easy to use. Because your simply wrong.
SEKAI3 votesIf you can type all this stuff you might as well educate me with your almighty knowledge base.
So he has to be within the top 5 junglers, which 3 of them are broken, to even be considered a strong pick? lol wot.
His late game is supposed to suck because his early game is OP, he was designed that way and we all know that. Problem is, he longer falls off like he used to way back, he outshines specialists despite being generalists and any champ that becomes straight up broken in the hands of top players always instantly spells doom to the game design/balance, as I said, even Dota who balances itself through imbalance notices the last point and avoid it at all costs.
Skill doesn't just lie in flashy plays, you're the very reason to why Riot is doing it wrong these days, you're looking for the wrong genre and Riot is balancing the wrong game. If you really wanna see some REAL flashy plays, do yourself a favour and switch to 2D fighters, there are Street Fighters, Marvel vs Capcom, Tekken, BlazBlue, Guilty Gear, Mortal Kombat, Killer Instinct and King of Fighters just to name a few more well known ones.
And for fighting game pros, "Insec" is something all of them can do without breaking a sweat. It's really not that special the sole reason why Lee can pull it off is due to his kit allowing for that to happen. Plays are meant to be made, not defined.
If you have more power or a more opportunities by having a larger kit, I am sorry, you're in the end just playing an overpowered champ, make no mistake.
Lord Macaroni2 votes[{quoted}](name=Kirito x Silica,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PjxoFygJ,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2015-03-02T15:46:33.219+0000)
Your actually an idiot so im not going to bother trying to explain to you all the reasosn why your wrong. If you want to keep bitching about a perfectly balanced general safe pick jungler who isnt even in the top 5 best junglers right now and has a non-existent late game aside from being a decent tank with a lot of utility and a strong ult then feel free to.
Also yeah using his ward hoping perfectly and fast enough to able to maximize his mobility and ability to appear in the enemy team and kick the ADC into his team requires a lot of skill and practice with the champ. Please stop acting like hes so easy to use. Because your simply wrong.
I mean in your case, he looks pretty hard to use LOL. Nice match history bruh. And btw it's "you're" before you start calling people idiots. YOU'RE the reason Lee deserves nerfs.
Nyaruko Chan1 votesI like how because you know I'm right and dont have any real response to the facts I gave you resorted to attacking me because I had a few bad games in my match history and then actually went the extra distance to point out a single grammar error I made. Thanks for showing you're maturity levels. Also YOU"RE the reason this community is so bad. Bitching about things you have no understanding of but since you're fucking gold 3 you are apparently a master of the game and understand everything.
BeatzBoyFTW4 votesYes lets nerf the single **most balanced jungler **in the game. The only people who bitch about Lee Sin being op are the bronze 5 morons who dont understand how to even play the game.
...........according to your elo, not gonna say things like "Im higher elo than you so fk u", just that you have been fighting all the wrong Lee Sins in the wrong elo. Play better, and experience our actual pain.
Nyaruko Chan2 votesI was in Silver 3 last season and I play with my friends who are all Gold 1 or higher. I know a lot about the game because I got into the game because of my friends who are all really highly skilled players. Also I watch the LCS very intensely and always watch the pro players stream and talk about things. Just because I got demoted to bronze 3 this season because I went 5/5 in my provisionals doesnt mean I dont understand the game or the champs.
Lee Sin is perfectly fucking fine. Hes not even in the top 5 strongest junglers right now. Hes a generalist jungler whos a strong safe pick. Not broken.
Coaltar2 votesSince people are bringing personal histories into the discussion...
deep breath
I've been playing since Ezreal was released (five year anniversery coming up in a few days). I was unranked in Season 1, Silver in Season 2, Platinum in Seasons 3 and 4, and I'm currently in Gold. I don't usually watch the LCS or pro streams because my internet connection is awful, however I do frequent the LoL forums, reddit, and several LoL strategy and stats websites. I remember freaking out when Lee Sin was first revealed on April Fools because I thought Riot had completely abandoned the champion concept. I bought his double bundle on day 1, and for a long time I considered him my favourite champion - I even own all of his skins, though I consider myself to be a mediocre Lee player at best.
Lee Sin is a broken champion. Not because he is overpowered, but because his kit will NEVER remain in a position of balance without reworking him to some extent. The same could be said of any champion, that their relative power in respect to the rest of the roster is nonstatic because the game is always changing. However Lee is especially notorious in this regard because so much of his power lies in effects which are difficult to quanitify in respect to their value and overall game impact (increased mobility, attack speed/movement slow, knockback/AoE knockup to name a few).
With such an overloaded kit, his power would increase dramatically if his numbers (base stats, ability damage, cooldowns, etc...) were buffed because they are compounded with the incredible amount of utility that he gets from his kit, but a nerf to his numbers would be felt much less because he still has a large amount of mostly static power in his mobility and his CC.
Is Lee overpowered right now? I'm not sure, but the increasing frequency with which I'm seeing him picked in games makes me think he might be. Regardless he is a broken champion, and I think Riot should really consider the amount of broken champions they're able to allow in their game before balancing all of them becomes impossible.
Martyrofsand4 votesSorry but Lee Sin isn't Orianna. He doesn't stay competative without forcing others out of the jungle, hell no tank jungler will ever be viable while Lee is around and hell some of them like Zac and Maokai found themselves forced into top lane partly because of not being able to compete with Lee, the other part was kit changes.
Lee doesn't fall off. Falling off is what happens when a Rengar gets behind and can't do jack crap. Lee can get completely shutdown, fail every gank and have all of 30 farm by 20 minutes and still be game breaking. The myth of falling off or becoming useless is a straight up lie.
Lee Sin is the poster boy for how mechanical advantage has gotten way out of hand to the point it completely negates strategical play. You can properly ward and collapse on a Lee Sin attempting to counter jungle and it is extremely likely you won't kill him because of the advantage his kit affords him via his mobility and ability to displace opponents. You call this "outplaying" but I call it what it is, Lee Sin fucked up got caught and didn't have to pay for it because his kit can be that forgiving. That isn't balanced, it isn't good design, and cancers like Lee/Zed/Yasuo/Kalista/Leblanc/etc who are designed like this need to be fixed.
Kögâ2 votes[{quoted}](name=Kirito x Silica,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PjxoFygJ,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-03-02T14:03:59.051+0000)
Yes lets nerf the single most balanced jungler in the game. The only people who bitch about Lee Sin being op are the bronze 5 morons who dont understand how to even play the game. Lee Sin isnt even if a fucking top 3 pick right now. Hell hes not even a top 5 pick. The top 5 jungle picks right now are Rek'Sai, Vi, Nidalee, Jarven, and Rengar. Lee Sin is perfectly fine the way he is for a large number of reasons.
One, he falls off to non-existence late game. Meaning he turns into nothing more then a tanky guy who's only goal is to try and InSec the enemy adc into your team. Two, his ward hoping is extremely hard to do and requires a massive understanding of the champ to pull of. Lee Sin is one of the hardest champs in the game to master. His learning curve is massive and you will never be able to do anything crazy unless you've put a lot of time into him. Three, Lee Sin is literally shut down by any form of CC. Oh the enemy Lee Sin just tried to ward hop and InSec our ADC? Oh well ill just press Q or E as Annie and watch him die.
Like he has extremely easy counter play. Any CC will stop him in his tracks. Lee Sin's only well strength is in his users ability to outplay people. If the guy using him doesnt understand how to fully use him and outplay his opponents then hes useless. Stop complaining that you got wrecked by a good Lee Sin player and accept the fact that you got outplayed and try to learn from that and get better.
Fuck its like you people can do nothing but bitch and whine for unneeded nerfs instead of just accepting you suck and need to get better.
You can tell your a main when. Legit all this post toldme was "dear Lord pls don't nerf this easy champ that carries my win /loss on their backs!"
Unedible3 votesGive Lee Sin 
's Tremor Sense. Make him play the game like that.
Byakuya Kuchiki2 votesincrease his later rank CDs and lower the % on his q and he would be a lot better also lower his scalings hes a fighter not an assassin
Akenero2 votesWard Jumping is one of lee's major points in the game, and is his best escape, so I disagree on that one
His Q though...yeah, just make it flat damage riot, putting % HP damage on a champ like that who is a TANK with build in damage, is pretty silly imo.
SEKAI8 votesThe biggest reasons people want his ward hop removed is because:
So there's that.
Jefftiffy1 votesWard Jumping is one of lee's major points in the game, and is his best escape, so I disagree on that one
His Q though...yeah, just make it flat damage riot, putting % HP damage on a champ like that who is a TANK with build in damage, is pretty silly imo.
(yes Garen's ult is a %). Tell me just how many are bruisers or tanks. And they all do % hps. Lee isn't the only one with % hp.
Akenero2 votesokay, now let's take out the ones who don't have sustain, aren't tanky, and don't have amazing gapclosers eh? You're left with Gragas, Volibear, and Garen...
And gragas is a mage, voli is a pure tank(usually) with his only sustain being his passive, and Garen's q hardly counts as a gapcloser tbh, but it DOES qualify.
Besides, lee does damage based on an enemy's MISSING health...how many champs you've listed do that?
I'm not angry, I'm just pointing out that % Hp damage means nothing if you can't apply it and get out.besides, lee does damage based on an enemy's MISSING health...how many champs you've listed do that?
LAAK QuickScope2 votesMeanwhile Lee Sin his winrate is so low :D You want champions like Warwick/Fiddle to be Overpowered? I think if you master Lee it's worth the trade :-)
BeatzBoyFTW1 votesMeanwhile, Katarina holds 54% winrates, and yet, league community still talks about "ez kat counter" in each QQ Kat threads.
Keevalroy2 votesI don't know, I'm still royally pissed about the Ahri changes, but I've given up trying to convince Riot to change her back into an assassin. As for other changes, it's not really that we've shut our mouths because we were wrong, it's more that we realized Riot won't change what they want for League, so we lost faith in trying to reason with them.
Ryvaku2 votesWhat they should do is drop his AD scaling on abilities.
OperationDEEZ12 votesThe devs are scared shitless of nerfing Lee because last time 3 years ago the Lee community hurt their feelings when they tried to remove his ward hopping.
Tin Tarantino1 votesIf they change anything it should be removing the suppress portion of his ult that happens before the kick, so people could reposition if they were fast enough.
Avios11 votesI would rather have old back heh, I like going AP Sion...
Davids Uploader1 votesPFF, what about "I literally can never die because of all this lifesteal" AD Sion
Avios11 votesEh, The burst was nice on AP, quite hilarious to see carries die due to your Cryptic Gaze...
Davids Uploader1 votes"I am literally going to stare at you to death."
The Virgin Perry1 votes is better with a 55% win rate. 
has around a 48% win rate. He doesnt need a nerf.
BeatzBoyFTW1 votesSeriously, come up with a better explanation than winrates, as we all know a certain champion's winrates means nothing. It's like you're saying that guy can run fast because he's black.
No offence.