Hypothetical: Lifesteal becomes a unique Named Passive

Rebonack·Dec 21, 2016·44 votes·2,251 views

As in, only the largest source of Lifesteal from any given item is counted.

Does this have a positive impact on game health?

53 Comments

JavelinJoeDec 21, 201619 votes

This would conflict heavily with Warlord's Bloodlust and Vampirism since both give you lifesteal. Only has 20% Lifesteal, which is the most of any item, and then is the next highest at 12% but is melee only. Most lifesteal is usually 10% or less depending on how it applies (like with ). So by limiting it to the item that gives the current most lifesteal, you basically force everyone to get or take Warlord's Bloodlust since that is the only way they can have more than 10% (or 12% if melee).

A while back was actually more OP because the 20% lifesteal was not a unique passive, so you would get ADC's with 5 of them and 100% lifesteal. But that was nerfed like you suggested. The other items either don't give enough in general, or are very limited on who can use it, to warrant the "unique passive" downgrade.

Now, if mastery and runes were not taken into consideration, then there is not much of an issue here because most times the champions who take Lifesteal items, usually only get 1 ( or ) or 2 of any of these ( ). Now, some champions do get multiple items with lifesteal (like Yi, Fiora, Riven, Kalista, and a few others). But the majority just settle on and Warlord's Bloodlust capping them at 40-45% (depending on runes, masteries, and if they still have ) only though at very low health where they average somewhere around 22-25% or so when healthy (because of the vampirism mastery which adds 2%,runes, and ).

So while this may seem like a good idea, it mostly will not effect a lot of champions who already just take the one lifesteal item with Warlord's Bloodlust. BUT, it will heavily effect those who need multiple items with only 10% lifesteal because of the other stats they provide. Like how is bought for the Lifesteal but more so for the attack speed, passive, active, and moderate damage. Or how and are gotten for the MR and the passive/active (yes I know the one is where the lifesteal comes from). However, is bought primarily for the lifesteal and its related passive. Sure the high damage is nice, but it is not the main reason players get . So by limiting the Lifesteal to only from the highest source, you hurt those who dont get because they need the other stats besides just raw damage. Champions like would be effected heavily.

Another point, would be champions who have built in lifesteal. and all have some Lifesteal built into their kit. Would this override lifesteal from items? From your question, probably no, but it is a point to think about because now these champions will easily sustain better than any other champion (yes, Sion's is only when he dies, I know).

Lastly, this would negatively impact cost/value of all Lifesteal items besides . Because you would have payed for a now unused stat once you got an item of equal or more lifesteal. is normally kept partially for that 3% lifesteal, or a second is usually bought because of the cheep 6% lifesteal you would could have. Any other item, even would make basically 1/3 useless, or giving it only a value of about 300 gold, not 450 gold. Basically you just wasted 150 gold buying your starting item. This "wasted gold" will get larger as you buy more expensive items (around 900 gold each additional lifesteal giving item after your first ( would be an exception only because lifesteal is not a core stat, it only applies when the passive procs).

So, would this be healthy? Most likely no. It would require a few compensations to be made for the "wasted gold" issue, could have bad/problematic synergy with some champions, masteries and runes, and would make an issue out of something that was not really a problem to begin with. Lifesteal is not a big issue. Sure sometimes it can be annoying to those it is used against, but overall it is not that bad, at least not currently.

If you have more issue with the sustainability on AD based champions (marksmen, skirmishers, tanks, bruisers, etc...), then maybe look into something more along the lines of heal reduction. Currently only item 3165 and item 3123 , summoner 14 , and only a very small number of abilities provide heal reduction (grievous wounds). That is very limited compared to the amount of options available in the game that buffs/provide healing and sustain.

AMYS GRAVEDec 21, 201610 votes

What if bloodthirster had its ad lowered so its focus as an item was on lifesteal and not as an AD stat stick?

JavelinJoeDec 21, 20167 votes

It already is focused more as a lifesteal item. The 75 AD is literally its only stat. The lifesteal is a UNIQUE passive. So if it only had say 45 AD, the item would be pretty garbage since you would get so much more from the other lifesteal items for just a little less lifesteal. item 3139 has 65 AD and 35 MR and an active that is very useful. Sure it has 10% less lifesteal (half of 20%, not 10% of 20%), but the other stats make up for it.

In comparison, item 1053 has 10% lifesteal and 15 AD and costs only 900 gold. item 3072 has 75 AD, 20% lifesteal as a UNIQUE passive, a passive shield which only works at full health, and costs 3700 gold. Basically the item would be worth somewhere around 3000 gold in the end, which for only a UNIQUE passive 20% lifesteal, a semi usefull passive (can only be used at full health), and some average AD, is still not worth getting over other items.

AMYS GRAVEDec 21, 20162 votes

Sure, but if you NEED lifesteal then maybe the 10% merc gives just doesn't cut it, hence why you would need bloodthirster. Sure merc might offer more but its power is the QSS effect giving that item a purpose.

You might have to adjust the build path for BT by either swapping BF sword for pickaxe or removing the extra longsword, and reduce its combine cost or increasing its lifesteal by a couple percent, but in the imaginary world where lifesteal were a named unique passive then it should in principle be balanceable.

JavelinJoeDec 21, 20162 votes

but in the imaginary world where lifesteal were a named unique passive then it should in principle be balanceable.

Actually, Bloodthirster is currently the only item with lifesteal being a UNIQUE passive ( item 3156 is meant to be more of a bonus than specifically a lifesteal passive). And raising the lifesteal amount is not really easy since the current 20% is already up to 40% with warlord's bloodlust alone. It is not a bad idea to lower the AD, but some other stat would need to be added to re-balance the item's usefulness or it would not be picked in most situations. Maybe add like 20 armor by substituting in a item 1029 for the item 1036 in the build path, or something similar to that, since item 3072 is more or less just a glorified item 1053 as it is now, so lowering the AD just makes it even less glorified.

Spice POWAHDec 22, 20162 votes

Does anyone actually care about the 2% lifesteal/SpellVamp?

JavelinJoeDec 22, 20161 votes

No, not really, but it still is some lifesteal so I included it.

It Hertz When IPDec 22, 20161 votes

Not to nitpick, because I agree with your take, but Warwick doesn't have lifesteal in his kit. His passive is a stacking on-hit that heals him.

JavelinJoeDec 22, 20161 votes

His passive is definitely not, but his ult is 30% lifesteal for the duration, at least according to the wiki.

It Hertz When IPDec 22, 20161 votes

Well I'll be damned. That didn't use to be there.

EDIT: Ok, it's been there since 2010... I just never noticed it?

JavelinJoeDec 22, 20161 votes

Yeah I was not aware too until i looked it up.

Glory ln DeathDec 22, 20161 votes

I think one of the main issues people have with lifesteal is how much healing ADCs can have just through their autos. However, the problem is probably more to do with their high attack speed and crit chance, since most don't build more than 1 lifesteal item.

What if lifesteal didn't heal from the bonus crit damage, only the base auto damage, instead?

Or, if lifesteal was only 50% effective on critical strikes, so Infinity Edge would increase the healing a bit?

I feel like something along those lines would address people's issues.

JavelinJoeDec 22, 20161 votes

What if your crit chance was the % of lifesteal gained from the crit's additional damage? So if you had 20% lifesteal and 10% crit, you would heal for 20% of your normal auto's damage and 10% of the additional crit damage.

MirkhailDec 21, 20166 votes

How many champion buy more then one lifesteal item? I can only think about kalista,aatrox,draven(mostly qss),riven and ezreal. It wont effect most champions and i don't think people are stacking lifesteal right now so there is probably no need. It wouldn't be an unhealthy change and probably even healthy but that need a rework of lifesteal items before changing it.

iSolfrayDec 21, 20164 votes

Fiora would be massively nerfed, since she builds three lifesteal items :(

MariusfPresidentDec 22, 20161 votes

which ones?

Weight of LawDec 22, 20161 votes

Idk about her building 3 life steal items consistently but she does normally build item 3074 and item 3072 , but sometimes also builds item 3139 (and item 3156 if you count it as a life steal item)

Over InnsmouthDec 21, 20163 votes

Yes fucking please.

Sona PingDec 21, 20163 votes

It does not have any positive effect.

It does nothing for the majority of cases, most people do not and have no reason to stack lifesteal in a match and worsens it for some other cases, such as item 1055 when put behind in lane.

AMYS GRAVEDec 21, 20162 votes

When behind in lane you could still go item 1055 item 1083 because cull has the on hit passive not lifesteal.

Sona PingDec 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

When behind in lane you could still go because cull has the on hit passive not lifesteal.

You could Cull to gain it's alternate form of lifesteal, but the problem with using Cull here is that it is very gold inefficient. It lacks the gold super-efficiency that is the goal of the Double-Dorans tactic, and making lifesteal unique destroys the gold efficiency of the tactic which a player uses to try to regain their foothold in lane.

AMYS GRAVEDec 21, 20162 votes

Yeah.

Do you think its a problem that if you're losing lane you have to wait for the mid game power the cull cash in gives to get back into it? Cull doesn't have the immediate gold efficiency but long term it does pay off.

MelledoneusDec 22, 20162 votes

I think that's fair since the best stats of the other Doran's items (damage block, mana restore) don't stack, either.

Weight of LawDec 22, 20161 votes

actually the doran's ring mana restore does stack

MelledoneusDec 22, 20161 votes

Well, it falls off whdn your mana pool expands, so I guess we can rule it out regardless.

Sona PingDec 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I think that's fair since the best stats of the other Doran's items (damage block, mana restore) don't stack, either.

That is completely fair because we are talking about Dblade and changing it, because we were talking about Dblade Cull and not the other items, and it is fair because that is false and they do stack.

6SfoolDec 22, 20161 votes

I don't mind the inefficiency. I start it every game, play passive in lane, and even if I don't get a kill off of an enemy's overextension, I get a powerspike before laning phase ends. Cull in my opinion is way better than a double dorans, or even a single dorans.

DengedenDec 22, 20162 votes

This is a subtle Warlord's Bloodlust QQ thread, I think.

Sona PingDec 23, 20161 votes

It's unfortunate that I would not be surprised if it was another one of those as 2% lifesteal against minions is horribly unfair. Apparently.

ProfDrDeathDec 21, 20162 votes

No, not really - although it would not have a major negative impact, either.

Most ADCs go for only a single major Lifesteal item, anyways. And ADCs healing a lot in teamfights via Lifesteal is actually intended behaviour - in its core, Lifesteal in teamfights is there to force enemies to commit to taking out an ADC target (the stat is rather useless against burst damage), instead of getting to rely on incidential AoE damage taking out the ADC.

MrryZDec 21, 20163 votes

The issue right now is assassins aren't doing their jobs because adcs can outdamage them and lifesteal any meaningful damage though.

JavelinJoeDec 21, 20164 votes

Assassins are mainly meant to burst, not deal consistent damage over some length of time, like most marksmen are designed to do. So if they cant burst one down (which isn't often, i've seen a few 0/5+ Zeds nuke marksmen in the mid game who were 2+ levels above them), then they either did something wrong, got outplayed, or are just too far behind. It also is easier for the marksmen to outplay the assassin if they know that they are coming. item 3147 is great for that reason and item 3814 can help dodging the first CC ability. item 3033 is also not a bad item for AD assassins ( item 3165 for AP) since it negates a lot of the healing capability of marksmen with lifesteal, giving assassins/burst champions a better chance to kill their target.

AMYS GRAVEDec 21, 20163 votes

Part of the problem is the assassins windows of burst have been increased, allowing the adc to get 5-6-7 autos in before the assassins combo is over, which amounts to quite a bit of lifesteal in the right builds.

Sona PingDec 21, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Part of the problem is the assassins windows of burst have been increased, allowing the adc to get 5-6-7 autos in before the assassins combo is over, which amounts to quite a bit of lifesteal in the right builds.

Leblanc had a 1.5 second delay added to Sigil, Fizz has .5 more than that for his 3X crit. What attack speed does an ADC have with 2 AS items at let's say level 12? Something like 1.3, 1.4? So how many AAs will said ADC get in the increased window of burst from Leblanc ?

2 autoattacks. Not "5-6-7 autos in before the assassins combo is over".

They would get quite a bit of lifesteal in the right builds. Builds no one uses because stacking lifesteal lowers their DPS, which in turn lowers the effectiveness of their lifesteal. Nevermind the fact that said builds would lack the attack speed in the first place to get anywhere near that amount of autoattacks.

AMYS GRAVEDec 21, 20162 votes

Leblanc had a 1.5 second delay added, which increased her burst window to more like almost 2 seconds which is what was in my head, allowing adcs to get 2-3-4 autos off depending on AS, 5-6-7 was just me not doing the math, my bad.

and adcs can get a BT or BorK and then add merc for 2 lifesteal items without hurting their dps too much. Its not like stacking lifesteal is in every game but warlords + dorans is already a good start for their lifesteal even before they start to get into their builds.

JavelinJoeDec 21, 20162 votes

allowing adcs to get 2-3-4 autos off

2 maybe, and a very iffy maybe, 3 autos in those 2 seconds. That is with 2-3 attack speed items. The only attack speed item with lifesteal is item 3153 which gives 10%, so if they have that and Warlord's Bloodlust with Vampirism and a item 1055 , you are looking at a max 35% lifesteal, and that is at the least amount of health needed to have 20% from warlord's bloodlust (it is like 80% missing health which the lifesteal does not apply to monsters, and halved for ranged champions when used on minions) which any assassin player should feel ashamed if they cannot kill you (a squishy af marksmen) when you have only 20% of your max health.

In 2 seconds for you to get 3 shots off you need an absolute minimum of 1.0 attack speed. Marksmen do not have base attack speeds above 1.0, usually they are around .6 something to .9 something for the entire game. Jhin cant even increase his making it impossible for him to get 3 shots in 2 seconds (he caps around .87 attack speed). If you did not know, anything under 1.0 attack speed is going to take more than 1 second to get 2 auto off.

Attack Speed's number is ironically not the speed, it is the % of how much of a full basic attack is complete in a 1 second time frame. 2.5 (or 6 attacks in 2 seconds) is the highest any champion (besides the now old Kog'Maw) could get. That could take 3-4 attack speed items alone and possibly an ability which gives attack speed.

and adcs can get a BT or BorK and then add merc for 2 lifesteal items without hurting their dps too much.

You're talking a 3600g item (merc) and either a 3400g (bork) or a 3700g (bt) item and I will add a bonus: a 450g item 1055 starting item which every ADC gets. Without getting a single 50g health pot or a 75g control ward, or even the 300g boots, you are looking at a 7450g ( item 3153 item 3139 ) - 7750g ( item 3072 ) 3 item (can I even call it 3 items?) build with no boots, and only 40% attack speed if you got the bork. You are looking at either 98-148 AD from just those 3 items and you get 80 health and 35 MR.

So at say, level 10-12 or so, you have just these 2 items completed, because of how expensive they are. With no boots, attack speed based items (besides bork if you got it), crit, or control wards/pots. How can you even think you are ever going to survive an at least 3 item Leblanc on just lifesteal and basic attacks alone as a squishy marksmen? She might not kill you, but that has more to do with how the fight took place, not you healing too quickly, especially if she got a item 3165 which cuts your healing by 40%.

DPS. Damage Per Second. With no attack speed items, you are actually not even dealing 1 auto's worth of damage in 1 second since you will just have your base attack speed and whatever you get from masteries and runes, which never add up to a 1.0 or higher attack speed until possibly late game. So yeah, it does hurt your DPS greatly. Further more, 148 AD (if going the more damage build) on top of what you started from your champion's base stats and from masteries and runes, is not a whole lot of power in the mid game (it is like 210 total AD), unless you are Jhin (but then you are stuck with your base attack speed which is always under 1.0). That is because you only have that 210 or so AD with a small amount of health and MR, and 1 active. No boots, crit, or anything else that is useful. In other words, you are slow in moving and attacking, have 0% crit chance, 0 armor pen/lethality, and will become one of the easiest targets to kill as a result.

AMYS GRAVEDec 21, 20162 votes

In 2 seconds for you to get 2 shots off you need an absolute minimum of 1.0 attack speed.

Actually that would give you three. One at 0 seconds, one at 1 second, and one at 2 seconds.

Also i never said rush two lifesteal items, that's just a strawman. Your assuming that's all they are building, which is a flat argument.

Otherwise good post, and this is an interesting discussion overall.

JavelinJoeDec 21, 20162 votes

Right I did forget that you start with one. I messed that up in the second paragraph and I probably could have been clearer too. Fixed it now though.

And I though you meant that they rushed 2 life steal items because of how you worded it, and I agree, that is a terrible idea to just rush those items first.

AMYS GRAVEDec 21, 20161 votes

In 3 seconds for you to get 2 shots off you need an absolute minimum of 1.0 attack speed.

haha actually in 3 seconds you would get 4... in 2 seconds you would get 3 iffy 4 with increased AS.

JavelinJoeDec 21, 20161 votes

lol yep, just a typo meant to have those 2 numbers swapped for 3 shots in 2 seconds.

And just for the record, I usually just grab Maw over Merc since you can get a lot more out of it for a lot less. While yes you cant clear any single hard CC, you do get a large shield (300 + 1 for every bonus MR) and a lot of passive stats from it (20 AD, 10% spell-vamp and 10% lifesteal). Plus the 10% cdr and 10 more MR and the fact that with the passive in effect, you have 5 more AD (70 total) is nice too.

Sona PingDec 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The issue right now is assassins aren't doing their jobs because adcs can outdamage them and lifesteal any meaningful damage though.

Assassins top the banrates and half of the top ten bans are assassins; At least half. That's a complete lie. And there is no way a champion cannot burst a someone with no defensive stats before they can sustain if they did not massively misplay and put themselves behind to the point of worthlessness.

MrryZDec 21, 20162 votes

First, banrates have nothing to do with my point, that's just how often they're picked not how effective they are. Second, I didn't mean to imply that every assassin was suffering but most of them are due to now having delayed burst. Take reworked talon for example, he now has to land three damage spells and then auto the enemy to get off his burst now as it's been tied to his passive. this combo in it's most efficient state will probably take between 1 and 2 seconds and then the further two second bleed timer on his passive. This leaves time for the adc to put in at minimum 2 - 3 autos seeing as most times talon doesnt have to utilise the full bleed.

WoonStruckDec 22, 20161 votes

Assassins aren't topping any bans...lol

At least at decent MMRs.

Its all Lee, Vi, Hec, Yasuo, ADCs

AreDec 21, 20162 votes

Alternatively, we could halve lifesteal for ranged champions.

JavelinJoeDec 21, 20162 votes

Well, ranged champions already do not have access to one of the lifesteal items item 3074 . I think the post's focus was more for melee champions who take sometimes 3-4 lifesteal items. Also, idk about you but for me, having only 1.5% lifesteal on the #1 ADC starting item is pretty pointless item 1055 and defeats the purpose of getting it over item 1083 . You do realize that dealing under 100 physical damage means that you get less than or rounded up to to 3 hp each auto, so lowering that is pointless.

KingnewgameplusDec 22, 20161 votes

#IndirectlyNerfingAatrox2016

SpoofghoulDec 22, 20161 votes

well it seems to be problematic on some champions there are a few abuse cases

i mean nobody likes dealing with fiora with 3 lifesteal items and warlords healing half hp per attack or twitch draintanking with runaans ult and a bunch of lifesteal

Though a unique passive is like that will hurt a lot more champions then those who abuse it because they might only get 10% max from individual items like botrk and mercurial scimitar where the guy building 1 bloodthirster still gets 20%

Some other ideas to curb lifesteal a bit might be better

There are some other things to consider too, lifesteal applies to damage dealt on the attack and it has other means of muliplication

For starters in all instances it should only ever apply to physical damage with no exceptions, this should get a pass to make sure this is the case and then we can proceed to further curb it a bit

Some things i personally strongly feel should happen

If someone has 1 health you can still lifesteal for 1000 provided your attack deals that amount of damage, this is an obvious candidate for change. The amount of life stolen should always be equal to the actual damage dealt, so if you hit something with 100 hp and you have 20% lifesteal then you can heal for 20 hp maximum
Make it not synergize with Crit. Make lifesteal only apply to the actual attack damage part and not to critical bonus damage, if you have 300 AD and 20% lifesteal then you can only heal for 60 per attack maximum that 450 bonus damage on your crit will not apply lifesteal
Remove lifesteals interactions from problematic items Like runaans hurricane and ravenous hydra, they allow you to lifesteal from multiple targets at once multiplying its power in addition to the amount of waveclear & stats they already grant, Paying with opportunities to lifesteal in favor of faster waveclear is more healthy then having that fast waveclear in addition to fast lifestealing .

Those would be my major changes for how lifesteal functions

TheKemperorDec 22, 20161 votes

This seems as though it would make things worse. The people who "abuse" lifesteal are ADCs, who normally only have a BT. This would just be a nerf to Bruisers who stack lifesteal, over AD.

SasogwaDec 22, 20161 votes

Wouldn't change anything. It's in general suboptimal to go double lifesteal, and worse in lategame (where you'd rather have a multiplicative stat such as AS/crit/arpen ; or defensive stats)