Basically it say. DFG removal was a big hit for veigar. So we nerfed the stun range to 650 from 700, we made a 0.75s delay, then we made Q a skill shoot so you can't use it to make sure you'll lose some reliability and are screwed if there are some minions. But we still think veigar needed a nerf, so we also nerfed the ap ratio on his ulti.
Just LOL. riot is so hilarious this year. i think they overtook blizzard noobiness.
Hupsis44 votesThe E range was INCREASED from 650 to 700, not reduced.
Q also hits 2 targets so you'll be able to farm those minions even more effectively and increase your AP faster. In the end game the 0.2 ratio nerf on ult won't matter since you probably got enough ap from Q farming to keep it at the same damage levels as earlier.
Next time read the changes more carefully.
DrCyanide17 votesThe point still stands that your R might be the only thing you can actually land on champions. Granted, that depends on the projectile speed of Q, but this change feels very much like "Veigar losses his stun. GL."
BottleCapster2 votesThe point still stands that your R might be the only thing you can actually land on champions. Granted, that depends on the projectile speed of Q, but this change feels very much like "Veigar losses his stun. GL."
Veigar's Q now has a much better range than it used to, and since it hits twice you can farm up ap twice as fast as usual. His damage is still ungodly high, the only problem i've forseen after testing him is that the new delay on E may be too high, as hitting the stun is much more difficult now, especially when escaping, but more aptly is problematic because its the only reliable way for Vivi to hit his W. With the reliability change to E, it might be a good time to lower the delay on W, if only a little bit.
Frungy5 votesE Range doesn't matter due to the drop delay (Probably won't hit) plus Veigar has low MS and no movement abilities, just how is he supposed to chase even farther (to make the E range usable) to then setup a 1.25s delayed meteor that has an even lower chance of hitting since the target is likely still running around?
Q damage was not changed AT ALL, and since everyone maxes Q first, the CD on Q that you will experience in game will quickly become higher than it is now. Also, as a skillshot it's even less likely that you'll hit your opponent with it because, once again, your probably not going to able to actually stun them. The only way that this Q change is possibly a buff is if you can consistently setup a minion kill + enemy champ hit for harrass. Finally, the Q farm argument is highly situational. Veigar cannot one-shot minions with Q until later in the game. This means that to make the Q change useful at all he has to prep the minions and then move into a position to hit 2 minions at once while both are at lower health, which is fine, in a bot game maybe. Against oppenents? If your not Q harrassing them, then they're at full health and will be ready to aggress on you, you won't have the positional freedom to line up minion Q-shots and with your E delays, you have a much lower chance at stopping them from walking all over you.
R is straight up nerfed. No compensation anywhere, just nerfed.
TL;DR: Nerfed through loss of DFG. Changes further nerf all reliable damage output scenarios and CC effectiveness. Veigars 'fantasy' is now tied to farming all game like a Nasus chained to his tower, and dreams of always hitting two champs with every Q.
Critkeeper4 votesThe E range was INCREASED from 650 to 700, not reduced.
Q also hits 2 targets so you'll be able to farm those minions even more effectively and increase your AP faster. In the end game the 0.2 ratio nerf on ult won't matter since you probably got enough ap from Q farming to keep it at the same damage levels as earlier.
Next time read the changes more carefully.
the difference in ap gain with the double q is negligable because by the time you max your q at level 9 you will be killing every minion with it anyway. It will be a difference of about 20-40 ap at best.
Also remember that they increased the cooldown, so you can't farm waves as quickly with it either, which will cut into the difference.
LoLKiru3 votesBear in mind, the cooldown change is a mixed bag, since its lower at rank 1 and 2, equal to live at rank 3, and very slightly higher at 4 and 5 (.5 seconds and 1 second higher respectively; though at that point since you'll probably have CDR, im not sure if it will matter really)
Jarrito2322 votesPlus all of his mana costs and cooldowns have been lowered. Just because some counterplay has been added doesn't mean he was nerfed.
Hard Penetrator4 votesCd changes aren't straight up buff because they changed nature of his skils. Q is as avoidable skillshot and E has a almost 1s cast time. I won't argue how good or bad this change is but saying is straight up buff is wrong.
Also I don't really know why Veigar was fine for 4 years and suddenly QSS, mercs, tenacity potion, zhonias and mikael don't provide enough counterplay against him (yet they provide enough for zed for some reason).
Point is I don't like what I see, I may not be champion designer but I see problems with landing Veigar things right now.
Partholonian1 votes[{quoted}](name=Hard Penetrator,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PQIAuhGt,comment-id=000300030000,timestamp=2015-02-13T23:03:31.952+0000)
Also I don't really know why Veigar was fine for 4 years and suddenly QSS, mercs, tenacity potion, zhonias and mikael don't provide enough counterplay against him (yet they provide enough for zed for some reason).
Veigar wasn't fine for 4 years. They deliberately kept him far enough down to keep him out of competitive play because of his E. Now, if he turns out to be too weak, they can buff him without making him a "stun everyone and faceroll" champion.
Also, if Zed ult stunned, they wouldn't consider that fine. In fact it doesn't CC at all -- you have the full duration to try to keep away from Zed, force him into a position where he will die too, or avoid the damage from the rest of his kit (ult doesn't do that much by itself).
Malz would have been a better example, but Malz has 0 escapes. And both Zed and Malz can only hit one person at a time. You can't Mikael's an entire team.
Hard Penetrator1 votesI don't have any idea why are you saying Veigar wasn't fine when obviously no one had major problems with him. He wasn't crazy strong nor terribly weak. For most of us this is true balance and in that sense Veigar was fine.
Stacking champions aren't fit for high level competitive games for obvious reasons. There were 2 months where Jungle Nasus was a thing but that is pretty much it, he was quickly nerfed and never seen in jungle again.
If you didn't get my point about Zed I won't discuss it nor explain it to you. The thing is you can counter Veigar quicker and more efficient that you can counter Zed.
Veigar isn't faceroll champion, why would you even call him that.
Ppl wanted small tweaks for taking off dfg no one asked for unscheduled champion remake.
Also Mikael is used for heal against both Malz and Zed, it does not remove suppressed status nor debuffs.
Frikgeek13 votesSo veigar stun is a zoning tool and you can actually be blamed if you walk into that 2.25s stun (that's the same duration as Fid fear or rammus taunt btw), and his Q is much better for farming now. The damage reduction doesn't matter as much, his laning phase is stronger with the double Q now and his lategame stun->fullcombo actually has counterplay now.
Thryale1 votes2.5 stun at rank 5 actually. ;)
Also, I fail to see how his q is going to be better at farming. it isn't untill lvl 9+ and a ton of ap that veigar and 1 shot the caster minions.
That's like saying lux's binding is great at last hitting (and not using her E)
Frikgeek4 votesBecause it does enough damage to kill 2 low-ish creeps? You don't farm with lux Q because it costs a fuckton of mana and is your only defence vs all-in champions. If you set it up with your autos you can easily get 2 stacks on Q with only 1 CD and less mana.
Thryale1 voteslux q only costs 10 more mana than veigar's q at rank 5
Hyrum Graff2 votesVeigar has a mana regen passive.
Frikgeek2 votesYou can't compare them like Veigar's manacosts translate into Lux manacosts. Veigar has a manaregen passive so all of his manacosts hurt him less than most other mages.
Flemman1 votesfor me the Q change is a buff in a way that, now, if by some bad luck an ally kill the minion you wanted to last it, there is still some damage being trow in the direction (with the hope of last hitting something just behind) instead of just a loss of mana and the ability going on CD
On top of that, farming ap with w>q seem more effective now
Hyrum Graff2 votesHow do you farm AP with W? The bonus AP on minion kill is if he gets the kill with Q only.
Note: the bonus AP on champion kill is from any source of damage, but I don't think that's what you were talking about.
AbyssionKnight2 votesHe's saying drop a meteor. Leave the minions at low health, making it easier for your Q to get two kills.
Hyrum Graff2 votesOh, got'cha: W into Q. I read it as "W is better than Q for farming minions."
Flemman2 votesyep, that's what I was thinking^^
Hard Penetrator2 votesThis sounds like a terrible idea against any decent player. Using 2 skills just to set up stacks without any concern about pushing wave and enemy aggression.
I know I know, theorycrafting. I hope ahri and jarvan will let you do this every game :).
Reazale5 votesSo veigar stun is a zoning tool and you can actually be blamed if you walk into that 2.25s stun (that's the same duration as Fid fear or rammus taunt btw), and his Q is much better for farming now. The damage reduction doesn't matter as much, his laning phase is stronger with the double Q now and his lategame stun->fullcombo actually has counterplay now.
Actually , its stronger if u only farm under turret, weaker if u do anything else , skillshot Q is way less reliable than the targetd one, and for the same dmg? it won 200 range and got 1 extra sec of cd (yay for 25% extra cd nerf on it at max lvl) Also , Veigar just lost 2 skills: his E the stun (which if he missed) ppl could already flash/blink/dash (still got u stunned but could save ur ass in the right situation) or build BV/qss ( that will still be highly effective against it) and his W which was dependent on the stun (u will no longer land cos mobility OP). And leaving those things aside , with lee, j4 and vi on the jungle? and without the instant stun? good luck if u ever get ganked , cos that stun , wont save u, he is a free gank now.
Raptamei11 votesThe stun nerf is a massive blow.
FunkyyCat1 votesAt level 5, we're talking about a potential 5-man 2.5 sec stun on a 14 second base cooldown (goes down to 8.4 sec with 40%cdr). Add on the fact that it has 700 range to the middle (with a 375 radius, that's up to 1075 range from Veigar), and i can't say i'm surprised.
Reazale3 votesThats a best case scenario , it almost never happens , less so with the way it works , 2-3 is something u can pull off , but a 5man? u are more likely to hit 5ppl with orianna or zed than u are to do with horizon.
The other thing is that he was balanced cos of it , it was his set up skill (if he stunned some1 important u knew the combo was coming and could do something to prevent the kill) and his defensive skill (the one that gave him some protection from ganks) , with the mobility thats in the game right now , if he doesnt get something else to save his ass from ganks , he will be made short work of even before becoming a threat the lvl of a normal champ with his farm... i mean , come on , he has a 2.6 ratio (kass=2.1 and orianna 2.35 for comparision) now and a whole 1 of that wont hit unless u get a stun that wont hit if u as much as press S or just keep running (those edge are so small).
And we arent even taking into account the effects of BV and QSS had before , imagine what those will do to Veigar with these changes?!
EDIt: I will also add the fact that an adc from inside the circle (if not stunned which wont be hard to achieve now) will kill u before u finish casting ur combo.
FunkyyCat2 votesI completely agree with you: the current changes are far from ideal if we're trying to get Veigar to fit in the current meta.
To be honest i was solely adressing a single comment which is why i mentionned an idealistic scenario, but while i expect some more utility to be added to his kit (Slow on Q?), i still don't think the changes to his stun will be reverted, which is sad, i do agree, but we have to remain reaslistic.
GottaGoToSpace9 votesGiving Veigar counterplay? What is this madness
Kingsgrave7 votesThey couldn't increase his damage or anything at all without doing those nerfs tho
Junkο6 votesThey removed 20% AP from his ult and removed any reliable way to hit W, they could have easily added at least 10% somewhere else
Old Man Teeto2 votesThey gave -2 seconds on his W at max rank. More times to try and land it.
SpecterVonBaren2 votesMost people rank W last though because of its 1.0 ratio and needing that E stun to even hit someone with it. I'd like it if they at least reduced how long it takes for W to drop just a smidge to make up for the loss in reliability of hitting an E.
FunkyyCat1 votesQuite frankly, with up to 1075 range on his stun, i can't say that a 0.75 delay is even closely related to "removing any reliable way to his W". As a reference, Kog's ult has a 0.6 delay with a much smaller radius and it's still far from impossible to land. Finally, these are the first iteration of changes to hit the PBE, and most likely not the last.
Junkο1 votesKog'maw ult has 1200 range at rank 1, 1800 at rank 3. Has 2/1.5/1 second cooldown, is spammable and doesn't deal a ton of damage so most people don't actually worry about dodging it past the laning phase.
FunkyyCat1 votesI'm not sure i get your point. The reason i mentionned kogmaw's ult is only to compare delays, since it is often not that intuitive. Its range and spammability doesn't matter, much less so its damage.
Junkο2 votesIt does matter, people will pay attention to dodge Veigar W way more than they will Kog'maw R, because one is a nuke and other is a spammable spell that doesn't deal that much dmg
Thryale3 votesbut they -didn't- increase his dmg at all. they reduced it. and reduced his reliability on top of that. Veig was never a serious health problem to begin with. It's not like he was being picked every single game (like lee sin or zed) to begin with.
killd0zer7 votesAnd lowered his mana costs across the board, with mostly cooldown reductions.
Slamurai Jack5 votesAfter seeing the Ahri "nerf" in 5.2 and seeing the Lucian "nerf" 8 months ago, I am absolutely not going to judge what Riot is doing until we actually see it in game. Everyone said those champions were gutted then too and we all remember what actually happened.
Azteryz4 votesYou didnt read it right clearly e range got buffed and... basically they made it so veigar actually needs skill to master since most of his moves were basic point and click
Reazale2 votesU need skill to master him , but the 2 most important things to master is lanning and his stun. Mastering his lanning is just playing him a lot to get a feel of when u can be agressive (yes , he can be agressive and harass , u just gotta learn when and against who). Mastering his stun is hard , its the only skill shot like it in the game, and it will make or break ur games depending on how u use it , how fast , how good u are at sniping or reacting with it.
FastAsHeck4 votesthe wall has a delay now? well thats great news, we can now dodge it instead of having to just "deal with it". stop crying veigar mains, because we want to enjoy the game too, and an AOE stun wall that is better that thresh ult in every way except damage and that hard cc's you for as much as fiddle fear or rammus taunt (both singletarget) is not something you like playing against. also the "put cursor on enemy, press dfg, q, r" pattern wasnt amazingly healthy either.
Byakuya Kuchiki4 votesthe wall has a delay now? well thats great news, we can now dodge it instead of having to just "deal with it". stop crying veigar mains, because we want to enjoy the game too, and an AOE stun wall that is better that thresh ult in every way except damage and that hard cc's you for as much as fiddle fear or rammus taunt (both singletarget) is not something you like playing against. also the "put cursor on enemy, press dfg, q, r" pattern wasnt amazingly healthy either.
bad. bad bad bad bad bad it was dfg r q so that you got the bonus ap so bad reported l2play
Scramrail3 votesDid Veigar really even need DFG? Couldn't he already pretty much 1 shot APCs with his ult? Lol
SpecterVonBaren3 votesDFG was Veigars mid game item for helping get to the point where he can one shot people. Without DFG he needs a lot of prep time to kill an enemy that isn't AP or a marskman in the mid game.
ThePlasticSpork3 votesThe stun range went the other way around. It's range was upped. His farming has also been vastly improved (better mana costs, Q hits 2 targets, which is freaking HUGE for him), and there's now some counterplay to him. These changes are good.
You're going to end up with more damage anyway due to better farming.
GigglingAngel1 votes[{quoted}](name=Extreme Troller,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PQIAuhGt,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-02-13T15:19:41.023+0000)
Basically it say. DFG removal was a big hit for veigar. So we nerfed the stun range to 650 from 700, we made a 0.75s delay, then we made Q a skill shoot so you can't use it to make sure you'll lose some reliability and are screwed if there are some minions. But we still think veigar needed a nerf, so we also nerfed the ap ratio on his ulti.
Just LOL. riot is so hilarious this year. i think they overtook blizzard noobiness.
I looked at your name. That explained a lot.
But since some people are retarded and don't notice the obvious, here's just some of the buffs he left out:
The Q can now hit two targets instead of one, including two champions. This does mean he can get two stacks in one Q.
(This is the reason for the R's AP ratio nerf, since it was doing too much damage too early, because people were getting around 1.2x more AP than usual.)
The range on the stun was actually INCREASED from 650 to 700.
The range on the Q was increased from 650 to 850, a whole 200 units.
Then there's a lot of buffs to his cooldowns and mana costs.
Lyrxen3 votesFollowed by damage reduction. Range doesn't mean crap if it does nothing when it hits. It's already hard to land his stun, now the delay too? Veigar is about to become as obsolete as Urgot.
GigglingAngel1 votesFollowed by damage reduction. Range doesn't mean crap if it does nothing when it hits. It's already hard to land his stun, now the delay too? Veigar is about to become as obsolete as Urgot.
When you take into account that Q's increase in stacks adds a note-worthy amount more damage to all his skills, that nerf to his ult makes makes since. It already does a ton now. That nerf is probably meant to equalize the damage the new AP gain will give.
