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%Bonus HP item? Bring on the unstoppable Leviathan

Rebonack··4 votes·828 views

I'll start by saying there's a difference between a Soak item and a Tank item.

Soak items are purely selfish. They make the holder more durable but they don't make them more of a threat beyond the innate qualities of their kit. Thornmail, Banshee, and Warmog's are classic examples of Soak items.

Tank items, on the other hand, are items that provide defense AND increase the threat of the holder. Frozen Heart does this with CDR (MOAR CC!) and its IAS nerf aura. But Riot nerfed the Tank side of the item (weaker aura) and improved the Soak side (more armor). For shame, Riot. Sunfire is another Tank item. As is Abyssal Scepter.

If Riot really wanted to show some Tank love, they could swap out the Blasting Wand in Abyssal with a Giant's Belt to make it the MR counterpart to Sunfire cape. But that'll never happen because HNNNNNGH MAGES.

What we need right now is a STRONG Tank HP item to serve as a soft counter to %Penetration because there's no way to really itemize for optimum EHP at the moment. Against someone without %Pen you need 1500 HP per 100 resist to hit optimum effective HP values. That isn't too hard to pull off. Against someone WITH %Pen you need 2400 HP per 100 resist, which is nearly impossible on pretty much everyone aside from Cho, Rammus, and Leona. So with that in mind...

Leviathan item 3067+item 1011 +item 1011+combine cost 20% CDR, buncha HP, and UNIQUE passive SPELLBLADE: On ability cast, your next basic attack grants a shield to yourself and the lowest HP nearby allied champion for 1.5 seconds equal to (percentage) of your Bonus HP. This ability has a 1.5 second cooldown. UNIQUE active: For the next 4 seconds you take damage in place of the targeted allied champion (90 second cooldown).

So what do we have right here? What we have right here is a Trinity Force or Infinity Edge or Deathcap for Tanks. A Fighter isn't going to care about that active. A Fighter isn't going to be building enough Bonus HP to take full advantage of the passive. A Fighter is probably going to prefer grabbing Trinity Force (or even Frozen Fist) in place of this thing since the Spellblade passives don't stack. The shields that it grants helps to mitigate %HP damage a little without being too overwhelming. This is, without question, a late game fantasy fulfilling item for Tanks. Between the passive and active you are saving your softer team mates while being an awesome CC-dispensing juggernaut.

Wouldn't that be great?

24 Comments

Maximum Morde6 votes

Thornmail increases the damage output you have against auto-attackers, so yes, it DOES make them more of a threat.

Sozan53 votes

Yeah, I wanted to point that out too. If Sunfire is a "tank" item then Thornmail is one as well (it also usually deals more damage, but of course the enemy in question have to attack you).

Leaf of the lake5 votes

If I'm Tanking I would love to be able to grab a 4 second Taunt to add to my toolbox.

And this is precisely why this would be way too strong. This ability is kinda like giving poppy's ult to your ADC. Read as: Absurdly broken. It would be a must-have for every team ever, even if it gave no stats whatsoever.

Also, spellblade passive that doesn't build from sheen? For shame.

Kuroi862 votes

I whole heartedly believe that a % hp item is needed. Let me state though that balancing needs to be taken into consideration and caution must be taken. Riot is terrified of the meta golem coming back and is why Riot has allowed tanks to be on the cusp of being UP. The Kayle ult active is definitely a no. The passive could be nice so long as it only affects the tank alone, make him a little harder to kill.

Also, the point of soak items is for tanks that bring their own threat to a fight, tank items are for those that bring their own soak but need additional threat.

Angry Monster1 votes

Not sure that your Item is the one we need. I do not like the active. Its more of a support tank item than a jungle tank.

Rebonack2 votes

{quoted}

Not sure that your Item is the one we need. I do not like the active. Its more of a support tank item than a jungle tank.

The active would be downright amazing on Tanks like Naut or Sej or Amumu since they don't really have any way to peel once they've tossed out their initial rotation. This active would give them a clutch-save that effectively functions as a four second Taunt. If I'm Tanking I would love to be able to grab a 4 second Taunt to add to my toolbox.

Thornmail increases the damage output you have against auto-attackers, so yes, it DOES make them more of a threat.

Only if they're attacking you already. Most Tanks don't have a Taunt to force folks to gun for them, so Thornmail just encourages auto-attackers to ignore the Thornmail holder and focus someone else. Thorn is best on Fighters/Bruisers/whatever you want to call them who are going to be diving the enemy Ranger and getting up in their grill. It isn't a Tank item.

Angry Monster1 votes

Actually the item is horrible for naut. Naut is supposed to lead the charge into a fight and grab a target. He is already getting hit if he hooked the right target. Nothing in naut kit will allow him to stop the adc taking hits.

Riot will never allow a on hit effect of throne to transfer like you mention, it lacks clarity in combat. Your not autoing a the person with thorne and your not getting hit but you are taking damage. Its just confusing when snap decisions need to be made.

Nauts shield is on a 20 sec CDR and it does not even scale that well so he is not going to be able to midgate the damage that way.

This item is trash on naut

Rinky Dinky1 votes

Actually, the item would be amazing on naut.

You obviously don't follow the pbe changes. Naut's shield is going to scale with 17% of his total hp.

Actually, im pretty sure you yourself made a thread about that....

So... short memory I guess?

As for the item, I find it to be op.

The active is ridiculous, and the spellblade effect doesn't make much sense. Spellblade items need a sheen in the buildpath. And even if, the idea of a shield like that sounds OP as well.

Although on Naut, it would stack with his own shield, making him unkillable.

Angry Monster1 votes

obviously you do not know what the fuck you are talking bout. I am completely aware of the changes. Item is would still be bad. But your ignorance is your bliss.

Rinky Dinky1 votes

lol k

Kowe The Ewok1 votes

I am in favor of a %-health item (I was the guy who created this relatively popular topic about it) But I don't like your concept.

Your concept doesn't focus on serveing the needs of the tank, but that of another champion. It's a support item you suggest, not a tank item meant to overcome issues like that fact that effecitive HP is barely impossible to build.

Rebonack1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kowe The Ewok,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PIFHzsNb,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-01-01T21:08:24.157+0000)

I am in favor of a %-health item (I was the guy who created this relatively popular topic about it) But I don't like your concept.

Your concept doesn't focus on serveing the needs of the tank, but that of another champion. It's a support item you suggest, not a tank item meant to overcome issues like that fact that effecitive HP is barely impossible to build.

I am totally okay with people not liking my concept. The goal is to generate discussion and brainstorm ideas. If you (or anyone else) wanted to pitch alternate ideas I would love to add them to the opening post and make a compilation of cool Tank item concepts.

The basic idea here was to pitch something a little more interesting than a simple bonus HP deathcap. By making it a shield that can also protect a buddy based on your bonus HP you're generating threat (we've got to shut that shield off to kill Vayne) while at the same time increasing your own durability with said shield. The alternative would be something like a +30% Bonus HP effect, which would be a selfish item. It would meet the requirements, sure. But it wouldn't be as much of a boon to your team. It would also be more vulnerable to %HP shred damage.

I guess a selfish equivalent would be something like 'You gain a shield equal to 30% of your bonus HP. This shield refreshes upon returning to the Summoner Platform.'

There are a TON of ways for a Tank to generate threat. Auras and heals (Taric), defense shredding (Amumu and Rammus), oodles of CC ( Naut and Ali), scary levels of AoE damage (Amumu again). And there are items available that meet these needs too, (Frozen Heart, Sunfire, Abyssal, Locket, Omen). This isn't a TANK VS SUPPORT thing. Tanking and Supporting both have pretty significant overlap when you get right down to it. All of the most successful Tanks have abilities that support and enhance their team mates.

xLegendary Troll1 votes

You brought an interesting point explaining the difference between soak and tank items. Unfortunately your item is neither lol. 2 giants belt is way too hard to save up. If anything, I'm hoping that they remove large rod, bf sword, and giants belt and create an easier build path so players who are behind can "catch up" more easily.

Also pure hp...eh we know most people won't opt for this unless their champion scales ridiculously well with hp. It'd be cool if they made Locket have an aura that effects enemies like "nearby enemies have -20 armor" to fulfill this "tank" request you speak of

Sozan51 votes

While I do believe that tanks need some love, I am not sure if this is the right way to go.

I think that above all else, we have to look at Last Whisper and Void Staff - as they are too effective at doing what they are not supposed to - that is melting squishies.

Both LW and VS are designed as an anti-tank items - and they do serve this role well. However they are so good that even if enemy team doesn't build a single defensive item and have team full of squishies - LW and VS are still the way to go.

If LW and VS were more of a situational items, that could hinder your damage output against squishies then they would instantly be in a better place (for 1, if enemy would build LW and VS to counter you, they will be weaker against your teammates - at least compared to other item choices they could've made. And obviously some champions would skip it, if their role is not killing tanks).

That's why I think that LW and VS should have the Armor and Magic Penetration changed to Bonus Armor and Magic Penetration - this way this would give very little against less durable target.

Sooko1 votes

If you keep putting a Walrus in your poll you can't expect its results to show much else :P

The Soulforged1 votes

The active on that is op though xD.

Kowe The Ewok1 votes

Build Path:

Negatron Cloak -> 850 G Chain Vest -> 750 G Cloth Armor -> 300 G +1300

3200 G

Moloch's Spirit +55 Armor +50 Magic Resist +25% Bonus Health

Passive: Increases your movementspeed by 2% for every 100 BONUS Armor and Magic Resist.

An item with mixed stats to add a slight bonus to what you already have, neither enough to be a full MR, nor a full Armor item. Both passive bonuses reward building tanky items, while being relatively weak on their own.

Erijian1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kowe The Ewok,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PIFHzsNb,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2015-01-01T23:10:43.995+0000)

Build Path:

Negatron Cloak -> 850 G Chain Vest -> 750 G Cloth Armor -> 300 G +1300

3200 G

Moloch's Spirit +55 Armor +50 Magic Resist +25% Bonus Health

Passive: Increases your movementspeed by 2% for every 100 BONUS Armor and Magic Resist.

I'd like to see how that'd be on Garen, you could probably get 4,000 HP alongside 250 AR and MR while being free to purchase another MS item other than Mercury Treads. Probably something like a Zephyr for the Tenacity, or to a lesser extent Ghostblade, Shiv, PD. Could help out with how badly he gets kited and add some extra time to his survivability.

Though the fact that the item offers no HP whatsoever makes it kind of bad. I could see Warmog's providing more HP than it does in most cases, on top of the fact that Magic Resist and Armor become redundant after a certain point compared to HP overall and you have a pretty meh item sent to the graveyard of Atma's Impaler purchased only by one or two champions.

j j1 votes

I like the concept but I would want many changes for the sake of balance. The passive would need a much higher cool-down! The active would be much more interesting / balanced if it was like this I think personally. (For the next 2/2.5/3/3.5/4 seconds (based on level maybe?) You redirect 15%/17.5%/20/22.5%/25% damage dealt to target ally to yourself.

Armor / Mr would not help the tank/support/bruiser from taking less damage from the redirection. I think that would be neat. Only armor / mr of the target ally would help the redirected damage deal less to the tank / support / bruiser etc.

25% might even be too high maybe a cap of 20 but I would like this as opposed to 100% of damage taken loL! that's way too stronk.

DeusVult1 votes

This item that you have come up with is pretty broken imo

I'm all for tanks, my most played champs are Amumu, Naut and Voli, yet, this item is OP and makes no sense. Spell blade with no sheen, shield's out the ass if you have a spam, a 4 second poppy ult on your ADC so that this item becomes a must buy on supports and tanks.

Also, this item doesnt increase your %health.

What we need is a complete overhall of defensive items, all of which are gold inefficient, and additions like items with %bonus health and %crit damage reduction.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

This item that you have come up with is pretty broken imo

I'm all for tanks, my most played champs are Amumu, Naut and Voli, yet, this item is OP and makes no sense. Spell blade with no sheen, shield's out the ass if you have a spam, a 4 second poppy ult on your ADC so that this item becomes a must buy on supports and tanks.

Also, this item doesnt increase your %health.

What we need is a complete overhall of defensive items, all of which are gold inefficient, and additions like items with %bonus health and %crit damage reduction.

-Why does it use the Spellblade named passive? If you missed the reasoning, read it again. Named passives exist why? This stuff isn't hard. -Why does it provide a spammable shield? What is it trying to accomplish? What is purpose of the ability? -The Active effect has no numbers attached to it. It could transfer 10% of the damage they take to you or all of it. The concept is what matters, not the actual values because I have no power over fine-tune balance. That's Riot's job. I'm just spitballing concepts.

The item does in fact increase your effective hit points, just not in a direct fashion. What would happen if the item simply gave a huge chunk of raw HP?

chumbler1 votes

A percent health boosting item would be one of the worst things they could add to the game and doesn't resolve your problem anyway. The only real effect would be buffing bruisers and making the game even more centered on percent health damage and carry damage. The problem with tanks isn't defensive itemization, it's shitty offensive itemization design (namely percent penetration and IE) and Riot's idiotic belief that hard cc (especially targeted hard cc) is "anti-fun". This isn't a problem that can be band-aided away by adding one hack job item that would pigeon hole builds even more. The entire catalog of items in the game needs to be overhauled, and for more reasons than just this, and Riot needs to get their heads out of their asses regarding cc. Don't expect either of those things to ever happen, though.

Instead, Riot will probably be their usual short-sighted selves and add that percent health boost item and it will be exactly as bad as I have said.

Vesarixx1 votes

I posted a thread a while ago with an alternative to a % health item that avoids the downside of health scaling potentially going out of control while dampening the effects of tank shred. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/p0bnA43G-all-hail-leviathan-or-how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-and-love-the-botrk?show=nested

Rebonack1 votes

A percent health boosting item would be one of the worst things they could add to the game and doesn't resolve your problem anyway.

Interesting thesis.

Why would an item that multiplies Bonus HP in some capacity and clashes with Trinity Force for an item slot buff Fighter/Tanks more so than primary Tanks?

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