Looks like we've been arguing about the same thing for atleast two years.

GigglesO··48 votes·14,319 views

I found this gem looking through past boards threads.

{quoted}

I think this contradiction actually has to do with the team comps.

Too many champions are given far too powerful built in armor pen. I could see it being the gimmick of maybe 1 or 2 champions, however it (as well as mixed/true damage) is often just thrown into a kit for mechanical power. There is no reason that GP barrel needs to pen 40% of armor. There is no reason for darius to have 25% built in armor pen on his E. There is no reason for Wu, J4, Garen, to have built in armor pen. They already get insane value out of black cleaver and it's just an under the table power boost, completely non-interactive, with the only partial exception being garen's because it's after 4 hits.

What results is that you have a situation where you create two hard teirs of champions.

  1. Those with armor pen which punch through tanks no matter how much armor they have (got crit by a GP for 1k earlier when i had 370 armor).
  2. Those who will take 20 seconds of constant attacking to kill the same tank.

Riot wants to give more identity to the champions and better define the roles, but that isn't always a good thing when you start creating a very unstable environment. I'm waiting for the day people notice you can take BC and LW on marksmen and armor becomes so cost ineffective for the enemy team, that it forced the game into a burst war (because that's exciting >.>).

Holy shit its almost a prediction come true.

We are having that burst war right now. I wonder how far back these predictions were.

#######BRINGBACKDEFENSE

47 Comments

deadlychuck16 votes

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/mobile/000/023/397/C-658VsXoAo3ovC.jpg

I wonder how far back these predictions were.

I don't feel like digging it up, but I was calling out the innate power disparity in burst damage and how power creep would asymmetrically impact the game since like season 3, but back then it was with respect to how fizz being able to delete a target was stronger than another champions simply having the same DPS as fizz could dish out.

And riot still never addressed this design flaw, with how they were developing the game.

GigglesO7 votes

I just love finding old gems of people saying "this will go badly".

Exact thing person warned about coming true.

Rito- Uhhh noone warned us.

deadlychuck8 votes

This isn't new, like I said, I've done this for years. Riot acts like they couldn't have predicted such consequences for the changes that they make, but it's pretty easy if you just have enough experience and are half decent at thought experimentation.

The only difficulties are trying to predict beyond massive design changes like runes being reworked. There's no way that I could've known that they'd move the mitigation bypass to a new system rather than the existing item system.

Speaking of runes, here's another for you... though there were a few pieces which haven't really play out with the shift in game duration.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/5I5HU8R3-with-the-new-rune-system-revealed

Though, i don't always make predictions and other times I've got ulterior motives, so you can't take everything I say as literal :P but it's hard to tell that kind of stuff via text

MrHaZeYo8 votes

The prophet lives.

deadlychuck8 votes

(former malz main ^) Malzahar no he doesn't [zombie-nunu-tears]

Nilok1 votes

Malzahar We all weep for the state of this decaying world brother...

Moody P7 votes

always interesting how you keep blaming the champs/runes who provide armor reducing and never the items and champions who made all of it necessary

GigglesO5 votes

I gave up on trying to tell the community that we should treat champions individually two-four seasons ago when they went through and fucked defense because 2-3 tank champions were too strong.

So now my hope is that we bring back defense, and then when the 2-3 champions of the class that were the problem are still too strong I can hit the boards with a good old. Don't Nerf defense items.

Its just like how we blame the whole class of conqueror users right now even though the problem is only with 2-3 champions.

If we get the whole class nerfed, those individual champions can see a few buffs.

Icy Hot Shoto3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PEbmIGGY,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-01-07T00:16:12.498+0000)

always interesting how you keep blaming the champs/runes who provide armor reducing and never the items and champions who made all of it necessary

Clearly you never pay attention the constant issue with Yasuo and crit items.

Almost every time Yasuo gets an insane win rate, crit items get nerfed. What happens then? Adcs start to die. So Riot then buffs crit items, and Yasuo's win rate starts going back up again.

Nerfing/Buffing just the items doesn't do anything but create potential problems because of this. What needs to be looked at first ARE the champion stats AND the runes. Why are champions doing so much with just this item? What are their base stats? What is their base scaling? What are their runes?

Sticking with Yas as my example, If he has Conqueror and basically any crit item first, as he normally does, more than likely you've just lost because he suddenly has 60% crit that does true damage just because he has a true damage keystone. That's really not okay.

Items are not the biggest problem, yes there are MANY that need to be looked at, but on a broader scale of things there's only what? 8 items that have some kind of true damage? 2 of them are the start of the jungle items, and 1 is a pot. So there's only at most 2-3 items you can get with true damage and have at once, however the pot is the Sorcery pot, so most often you're not going to find that on ad champions which are almost always the only ones who take Conqueror, and only people with smite can have the true damage from the jungle items because it effects smite.

Another reason why Riot needs to stop looking at items first:

Supports. Over the past, I want to say 6 months or so, Supports have been heavily nerfed. Lost gold income, reduced healing and shield both in champion stats AND item stats. They're getting to the point support mains are having a hard time with it. So what did Riot do? Instead of buffing the champion stats they nerfed, they buffed the items they nerfed. Sure, it helps somewhat. But that doesn't solve the larger problem. And the larger problem is in champion stats and runes.

WashyMoney6 votes

Yes one post. Let’s ignore the billion posts bitching about tank metas and specifically Maokai and how they “invalidate bruisers”. Maybe not on boards specifically, but definitely on Reddit, YouTube, and twitter.

Death by Glamour20 votes

most of that came from item 3076 which was a lazy attempt to deal with adc lifestealing in s7, ofc riot didn't consider what it would do to toplane

WashyMoney8 votes

Not an item in season 6 but okay lmao.

Also people been bitching about tanks wayyy before bramble vest.

GigglesO9 votes

That quote was in response to how tanks were being called both weak and strong by different players. As you can see between you and Death we are still having the same god damn arguments.

Its time for a pen/true damage/ tank item rework.

WashyMoney5 votes

Yep. Last tank item rework was honestly a flop

LordGeovanni4 votes

no sht it was all nerfs except sunfire cape which was a buff to stats and nerf to the passive

woodvsmurph1 votes

Honestly pen isn't the problem. The problem is people don't NEED to buy pen to kill a tank. Like let's consideritem 1416 item 3153 item 3071 as different items: first one 4% max hp damage on-hit. So enemy has 3k hp (pretty low for bruiser or tank)... and you're attacking about 1.5x per sec. That's 180 damage per sec before resistances plus whatever your ad value is... probably something around 250. So 375+180 = 555 damage per sec... continuous dps before resistances.

second one 8% max hp plus 40 ad. So we'll say you have 290 ad cuz of the 40 from bork. Again we'll use 1.5 attack speed. That's 830=240 dps just from bork passive multiply by 1.5 hits per sec = 360 dmg per sec from bork passive before resistances. Then let's add in the damage from our actual ad... 2901.5= 335. Total it up and we get 575 dps.

now we look at cleaver which gives 40 ad, no attack speed, and some armor shred. Your attack speed we'll say... cuz no attack speed items... is about 1.0. Your ad is 320. And let's say you're able to aa reset as some part of your kit so you do 2 attacks in one sec and give you the benefit of the doubt and say you've already stacked full armor shred of cleaver. 2*320=640. Plus the 24% armor shred - I know this isn't exact science, but it can serve for a rough general estimation - 640+154(due to armor shred) = 794 dps.

When we look at this... 555 for bloodrazor, 575 for bork, 794 for cleaver with our aa reset, it looks like cleaver plus burst damage is insane. But then we must consider the following... What's your follow up damage? What is your dps? How long is your burst combo on cd? The answer is generally at least 4 sec... possibly closer to 8 or more. So if we consider that you're attacking a tank who won't come close to dying from 794 damage (before resistances come into effect), then dps comes into play. What about 4 sec of dps then? Where the burst champ with cleaver is just about to have their burst back up again?

So cleaver guy has aa's doing (again... rough estimation here) 400 damage due to the extra armor shred he has adding about 25% more effectiveness (24% to be more precise, but let's keep it simple). 400*3(sec w/o burst combo available)= 1200. Add that to burst combo and you get 1994 damage in 4 sec before resistances.

The other two are way easier... with damage being constant dps so that we just have to multiply their damage by 4.

555*4 = 2220

575*4 = 2300

So cleaver gives 1994 damage, bloodrazor gives 2220 damage, and bork gives 2300 damage in 4 sec before resistances by ROUGH approximation. Sure we could factor in that there's other spells the bruiser has... but so does the dps champ. We could factor in titanic hydra... but then we could also factor in crit or rageblade giving more phantom procs of the on-hit damage of bloodrazor or bork... which would multiply the dps of bloodrazor or bork far more than the dps of the cleaver user. So again... the problem here is not cleaver or armor pen. It's the fact you can build dps and do meaningful damage without ever needing to buy armor pen. As I've said before, I will say again... adc's and crap like master yi should need some level of armor pen to do meaningful dps to tanks. Especially since tanks were reworked to give more power to their RESISTANCES rather than the HP from their items. If resistances are largely meaningless then the swap to give tank items more value from their resistances rather than their hp was a straight up nerf... which it largely has been and which I warned about earlier.

Make tanks about being tanky and make resistances matter. Make adc's and crap like yi need some actual armor pen to do damage to tanks, but also make tanks have lower base damage (to champions... not minions and monsters) so that adc's don't have a maokai sitting on them with sunfire cape and nuking them while being unkillable. It's a win-win for all with everyone doing more what they are SUPPOSED to be doing rather than more stupid "fixes" of adding extra damage to a champ to make it better.

Death by Glamour9 votes

season 7 sorry

I was talking about bruisers not being able to kill tanks thanks to bramble vest early buy

edit and prior to the bramble vest weren't yas and trynd really strong thanks to a crit rune?

kile1473 votes

Yeah I recall back in S5 playing Thresh and my team leaving me alone to finish off a low health (pre-rework) Akali while they chased the rest of the team. I landed a Flay+Flay Enhanced Auto and she had like 5 HP left... at which point she just sustained off me and 100-0 my health over the next 6 seconds and I really couldn't do anything about it. At that time I wished I had an item that just made it so that I wasn't just a health battery to the enemy carries, because I didn't need a lot more damage if she had less healing.

Instead of reducing the amount of healing so that small amounts of damage were more impactful, they just gave partial healing reduction, and made it so that tanks have enough damage to burst.

General Esdeath 2 votes

I for one love bramble vest. I suggested making thornmail reduce healing long ago, and at some point considered adding a smaller version of it (although just GW on the smaller version). I think it worked out pretty well for some cases. Old Fiora passive, Trynd Q, old Aatrox W, and old Irelia W just made it unfair as a tank to fight them. The only thing to match it was Maokai Passive, which can be argued as being too strong too.

LordGeovanni6 votes

2 years ago posts like these got down voted into the dirt.

Sewer Side2 votes

{quoted}

2 years ago posts like these got down voted into the dirt.

They should still get downvoted to the dirt.

Really complaining about penetration on J4, Wukong, and Darius?

deadlychuck4 votes

You're being too specific. The point was about how built in armor pen, and shred to a greater degree, influences the balance and decision making of the rest of the game.

There's no real complaint about those champions specifically, only that their mechanical design doesn't just make them more powerful, but rather actively reduced the effectiveness of purchasing one of the core stats of their opponent, rather than requiring investment into their own items to achieve it.

It's kinda like the contrapositive of how Mao's old ult worked, but to a larger degree.

Ignika D3 votes

darius doesnt need 25% pen he got 35 now same amoung as nasus without they needing to be on the circle

DNFVixen3 votes

{quoted}

I found this gem looking through past boards threads.

Holy shit its almost a prediction come true.

We are having that burst war right now. I wonder how far back these predictions were.

#######BRINGBACKDEFENSE

interesting to see people really predicted this, i never came on the boards much till runes reforged dropped. holy shit runes reforged broke the game hard and made a problem worse.

Dorans Pants2 votes

running in circles, running in circles.

GigglesO1 votes

You spin me right round baby right round, like a record.

Sxoda2 votes

it's already happening watch this lmao:

https://clips.twitch.tv/MiniatureHandsomeManateeTF2John

ModKnightsKemplar2 votes

Riot often adds those mechanics and they are effective as a short-term fix. Meanwhile, the balance of armor and armor pen remains precarious and small changes to the game can throw everything off.

What I think we need is dedication to fixing the underlying systems. The thing that irks me the most is when the balance team makes huge changes to a system, then won't make follow-up changes regarding obvious issues with it. Perhaps they are getting better, because they are back at crit itemization after it just got reworked at midseason, but that's still many months later. I understand the danger of the instability, but I'd rather be unstable for a couple patches than stably broken for 6+ months. I'd be really interested to see where the broader community landed on that.

Even for the pro scene, seeing them adapt for only a couple patches would be really fun for me. Obviously, that sucks for the pros, but so does having to quit halfway through a season because you can't play marksmen in bot lane. Is a little short-term instability really worse? I'm honestly not sure.

GigglesO2 votes

{quoted}

What I think we need is dedication to fixing the underlying systems. The thing that irks me the most is when the balance team makes huge changes to a system, then won't make follow-up changes regarding obvious issues with it.

I think we would all be ok with this even if it does cause a short term stir up. Especially if they follow up with changes.

ModKnightsKemplar2 votes

Most days, that's where I land, too. Pretending that the slow changes don't cause as much of a stir doesn't ring true for me.

There is a pace that is too fast. If they are adjusting items and champions before the community properly optimizes, we could miss some interesting developments. I wouldn't want that. But, when something is obviously overpowered, I don't think "wait to see what the counters are" is a good strategy. When you let one champion or build dominate play, even if it has counters, that's meta-warping. I see no reason not to numbers fix that over the next 2-3 patches, to at least try to get it balanced-ish before moving on.

In my mind, there is too much movement across systems with the balance team's current work, and not enough adjustment on recent changes. It's not a question of more or less balance that needs adjustment. It's a question of where their focus lies.

SuffocateMeDaddy1 votes

There is no reason why 300 armor malphite should oneshot my adc. And until that is fixed, until all tanks are fixed, I will enjoy built in penetration, conqueror. true damage. I would rather have 20 different viable top laners than 6 tanks.

GigglesO2 votes

In a balanced game noone should oneshot because there is this thing called resistances.

SuffocateMeDaddy1 votes

Okay let me reiterate my comment for less abled people. THERE IS NO REASON FOR 300 MALPHITE TO CONTRIBUTE WITH SAME OFFENSIVE CAPABILITIES AS 300 AD DARIUS. Better?

GigglesO2 votes

That is when you consider the duration of the fight. If the fight lasts long enough malphite should be doing roughly the same damage as the enemy otherwise there is no reason to pick a tank.

The problem with the current meta is that everything is too bursty, so they also made tanks bursty.

SuffocateMeDaddy1 votes

The problem with the current meta is that everything is too bursty, so they also made tanks bursty.

This is literally the other way around, they made everyone bursty because tanks bursted harder than assassins despite building full resists. This is something everyone fucking keeps forgetting. This power creep did not start with assassins. It didnt start with adc or ardent meta. It started when tanks with bramble vest could oneshot 5 1 6 adc. So they buffed adc. But then they could burst assassins. So they buffed assassins. But then supports were useless, so ardent meta began. All the while fighters were still getting fucked and ignored.

GigglesO1 votes

Pretty sure tanks lived too long. Riot upped damage, then gave tanks burst.

PB4UAME2 votes

Why?

Why is it a problem if a tank and a fighter both take 10 seconds to kill each other, the fighter doing more damage of course, but the tank has more resistances and hp as they invested in defense instead of more offense, so it takes more damage to kill them. In fact, I would consider this case to be quite well balanced actually, and not a problem in any way.

Similarly, if the fight was now the tank against a carry, one would imagine the tank should be able to kill the carry in less than 10 seconds, as carries have no where near the defense of a fighter, never invest in defense at all, go fully offensive in masteries, and as such are a glass cannon who should die to a stiff breeze. Likewise, with their higher damage potential, the carry can kill a tank in under 4 seconds by themselves. If it took 3-5 seconds for the carry to die to the tank, this all seems perfectly reasonable to me, and would be a great sign of balance. . . and yet, I feel you and your ilk would still consider this a "MuH tANkz oNe-ShoTtiNg mE" scenario, as that is literally the closest thing to a one shot any tanks can currently pull off, yet I still see this sorts of baseless complaining and bitching with no substantiation. The one shot videos I've seen are usually more than an entire rotation, including ultimate and several autos, runes, items, etc procing and usually with (several) other people assisting the tank in their "one-shot" which is anything but a one-shot, and does not fit the definition of the term in any conceivable way.

SuffocateMeDaddy1 votes

It would be problem if tank and fighter fought each other and the result was very close because tanks are better teamfighters, that however that isnt true since season fucking 5. Tanks either win duels 100% of times or they loose duels 100% of times. This is the reality of tank metas. If tanks came out 50/50 there would literally no fucking reason to pick fighters. Wanna know why? Because : Tanks dont scale from items, ergo they are cheaper to build, tanks offer CC fighters can dream of, ergo their teamfights are better 90% of the time. If you take these two in consideration, WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU PICK FIGHTER? Just explain this one question. If you could play a champ build cheaper items, have more presence in teamfights no matter how hard you lost lane, WHY WOULD YOU PICK SOMETHING ELSE?

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

To be fair, there are also plenty of posts that were outright wrong.

I think my favorite was when Duskblade originally came out and the boards was in uproar. My favorite was everyone saying Riot was big dumb for letting it exist and "anyone permabanning zed/talon after duskblade?" Duskblade comes out. Surprise: It's literally nothing. "HAH BUT WHAT ABOUT-" Yeah, duskblade became worth picking after an entire item rework. Let's also not forget the classic "reddit knows balance" videos where people think Kayle losing some AP Ratio will gut her.

TL;DR hindsight is usually 25% correct, 75% wrong with a little bit of "Yeah we reached that issue but after the thing originally complained about got changed".

Lauchmelder2 votes

{quoted} "reddit knows balance"

Lmao. The only thing reddit knows is how to fill a sub with trashy esports articles like "Faker says he takes a dump in the morning". r/leagueoflegends is really obnoxious during any split or tournament for that reason.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

That was the joke. The videos were completely not serious.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evjn7_tMRd4

deadlychuck1 votes

Yeah, but it's not hard to make accurate predictions about this stuff, the question is the motive.

Even I raised hell over the DD changes, not because I actually thought that they would cause issues, but rather because the design of an AD caster causes issues and DD is indicative of riot's decision to support such designs.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

Apparently it is because the community doesn't really understand the motive. You see it in whenever Riot makes a change that boards isn't outright clamoring for.

For example, with the DD changes, it amounted to nothing despite people saying 'wtf this will break <x>". Frankly, DD has been a bad item for quite some time and a niche purchase on only a select few champs. Rather than scrap the item, Riot makes a change that makes it a little better on champs with some hybrid power. It's pretty clear that 15% Omnivamp isn't a big deal. Despite this, people freak out and think no, this is bs.

deadlychuck3 votes

No I think that's precisely what I'm saying, 'wtf this will break <x>' is just being used as a justification to try and push to remove the item outright. Yeah sure it's a niche item, but the double standard that's applied to it from the niche that was WotA was a decent driving factor behind the outrage. I mean, when you literally just change AP -> AD and slap on a (idr exactly how much) ~1k anti-burst passive, that doesn't really justify it's acceptability compared to WotA. And before this goes even further into this stupid tangent, adjusting a few champions or adjusting WotA around those champions would be a blatantly more fair (given how they're treating DD) option than outright removing the item, only to later rework and effectively remove the problems that justified the removal in the first place.

AirKingNeo1 votes

There is no reason for Wu, J4, Garen, to have built in armor pen. They already get insane value out of black cleaver and it's just an under the table power boost, completely non-interactive, with the only partial exception being garen's because it's after 4 hits.

Except 2 years ago, Wu, J4, and Garen still weren't strong champions just as they suck today.

That old thread was bullshit too. Even at that time.

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