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Kindred's thematic of being the representation of Death shouldn't mean the champ is dead to players

Naalith··101 votes·18,944 views

So Kindred has been probably my all time favorite champion since their introduction (with the possible exceptions of Kayn and new Evelynn) and I've played the champion through all of the highs and lows every Kindred player knows. From the secret OP pocket pick to the literal god who stomped the meta to getting nerfed and nerfed and nerfed and reworked and nerfed some more. It's been a long time since the Kindred has been in a good place, but they were in a decent enough spot that I still play them a ton in normals and play them if my Kayn and Warwick get banned in ranked.

This patch though... Jesus. I literally warned Riot months ago in a pretty fairly upvoted forum post that stayed on the front page for a few days that I was worried Kindred and Ivern were going to be absolutely obliterated from the game as a result of being intrinsically tied to ADC and support items, respectively. Well the patch finally came around (and the support nerfs are next patch) and nobody bothered to throw Kindred even a little bit of power in the way of concrete stat increases. Sure, they made the respawn timer on camps 10 seconds less but they also made Scuttle so incredibly important that it's probably even more hard to get the camps now than two patches ago.

The Kindred rework is a patch known to anyone who plays a lot of Kindred. It ruined the feel of the character, it changed the identity of the character, it changed the damage profile of the character, it made the character a lot less flexible in what they could build. Riot basically forced Kindred to build crit or be entirely useless and now that crit has been knocked down a peg for bot lane, Kindred is basically knocked off the map. Bloodrazor-Black Cleaver-Frozen Mallet build isn't viable anymore, crit build isn't viable unless you get superbly ahead, and the champion just feels dead.

Riot please do something to help our old friend Kindred out. And while you're at it, please don't let the support nerfs (which are deserved) delete Ivern from the game in the same fashion next patch. I know the popular champs are important but it really sucks when no effort is made for months at a time while blatantly OP champions like Ezreal are either allowed to be way too strong or get tinkered with over months with the smallest adjustments ever to make sure they are in just the right spot.

50 Comments

Jbels37 votes

I feel like the biggest problem with kindred is a conflict of identity. Kindred are the embodiment of death. Okay, that's a cool concept, that's a FANTASTIC concept. How did Riot implement that concept? ADC with stacking mechanic. As much as Riot tries to sell the fantasy of "You are literally playing League's version of the Grim Reaper", I don't see it. When I hear death, I think of Karthus. When I hear Kindred, I think of gimmicky ADC.

I think if they do a Kindred rework (which they are going to have to at this point), I hope they do 3 things:

  • Move away from the ADC kit, and more towards a roaming assassin type of champion (Let's be real, PYKE is a better embodiment of death than the Kindred are)
  • Make the Kindred feel like they belong in the jungle, and aren't just shoe-horned in by their own weird design. Make them FIT.
  • Make Wolf an actual part of the duo. All the lore ever talks about is "Lamb hunts, Wolf Chases what will not go willingly". I see none of Wolf's portion of them. Oh yeah no cool he replaces an auto on the third hit against somebody marked with your E. Oh neat he does an AOE thing that really isn't thematically consistent or cool feeling to use. Make Kindred an actual duo champion, NOT Lamb + Wolf I guess is there too
Teridax6817 votes

This so much. Kindred I think has one of the most amazing themes in the game, and I remember their teaser story sending chills down my spine. Their lore is incredible, and a super-cool new take on death... but their gameplay never really fully delivered on that. Even before their rework, their innate was cannibalized from another champion with a totally different theme, and the switch from a bounty hunter to a two-in-one personification of death meant Riot failed their thematic execution from the start. Like Quinn and Valor, Lamb and Wolf boil down to just Lamb, with Wolf basically being a visual effect on a couple abilities. Kindred's champion design feels rushed, and on top of that it feels like over time they've been bent out of shape just to fit a class mold, when they should've been pushed much farther away from convention. At this point, I feel a major GU would likely have to be in order to fully bring Kindred up to the standards set by their lore.

A few more thoughts on Kindred:

  • Kindred really shouldn't be railroaded into any particular build. I fail to see what thematically ties the embodiment of death to critical strike chance, and I feel the model to follow is that any AD build should be more or less fine on them, without defining how they play either.
  • Similarly, Kindred shouldn't be pushed into a typical marksman playstyle, even if they use autoattacks. The champion is literally death, and there is so much that can be done with that theme in the form of unconventional abilities, or even attack modifiers.
  • This is probably pie-in-the-sky fantasizing on my part, but I'd really like it if Kindred were properly done as a two-in-one champion, as in literally a champion two players could pick so that one would control Lamb, and the other would control Wolf. This would require a ton of tech to implement, but would finally allow their fantasy to be done properly. If nothing else, splitting Lamb and Wolf into two individual champions, a la Rakan and Xayah, could perhaps work, but the two are likely tied together too strongly to be that separate.
Ariel the Cruel3 votes

Did someone say Kindred Rework?

Ariel the Cruel2 votes

Did someone say Kindred Rework?

Muzét2 votes

As much as Riot doesn't want to do it, I really hope that in the end they go for a transform champion at this point. While Lamb will play around keeping the duo alive (having life steal, regen tool like the old passive, crowd control), wolf would be the real damage dealer through pure damage mobility.

That could definitely work, with maybe a reset on the transform mode (which should already have a short cd but...) if you succeed to kill someone so you'll have to know when to switch form within a fight for various reason.

SirLapse3 votes

I wouldn't just say it's identity at this point, Kindred was literally just a more easily nerfed Azir. The most drastic change of an ultimate I've ever seen outside of literal reworks, and yet it was accepted because the kit was way too powerful. Then the kit's numbers became actually balanced, and the ultimate's weakness was revealed to be prevalent with a stat-check as its main component.

Riot I'm pretty sure internally debated whether the champion would be stronger against assassins and burst comps, when it's clearly the opposite due to the ultimate's obscene cooldown. Aatrox out of all champions received a buff to his passive to make it better scale to his favor based on the game's progression, and yet Kindred received none of it.

But to boil down what I believe are core issues:

  1. E is janky. It should be an empowered auto that increases your actual auto range for the first auto and automatically apply the first stack. Hail of Blades, one of the absolute best keystones you could ask for, only yields 2 bonus auto's typically.

  2. Attack speed lv1 was never compensated for despite machete attack speed nerfs. Hurts first clear immensely which is Kindred's most important phase.

  3. W is affected by vision (or rather the lack thereof) and you cannot control what targets it goes to. The sustain portion being removed off of it deleted Kindred's ability to lane. Too much is overloaded into the ability to activate Kindred's kit, and it's in such a limited range that you essentially only have it to guarantee safe jungle clears, not actual fun, skill expressions, etc. The skill needs a rework more than any other part of her kit.

  4. Marks apply way too slowly for when you're going to gank. Kindred is a champion with monstrous scaling, but so much of this came from Runaan's/RFC being cheaper to purchase that effectively her mid game is even worse than before. And even Riot admitted that it was already bad, which is a terrible tradeoff when you think about it logically. Improper scaling it can be summarized as. A lot of this has to do with jungle ADC itemization in general, but I digress.

  5. R is immensely gimmicky in the sense that it has no clear choice pattern able to be made by players regardless of skill level. Kindred is not a burst champion so the window of time for you to take advantage of the ulti's low health + heal and damage requirement is just more stat-check, which by the way feels TERRIBLE due to base stats, high cost itemization, and no guarantee of team damage/follow-up. The opponent also can retaliate. It is insanely too fair for the enemy, as "good" as that sounds for the game. There needs to be a damage amp on the ulti (talking heavy since they can't die) for targets inside so that you're able to make better use of your E and add actual risk to anyone that stays in other than the target(s) you are saving, less emphasis on "everyone gets healed" and more emphasis on "Kindred gets healed."

TL;DR Champion is simply janky as hell. E needs QoL buff to make it attached to your first auto, Q needs to function independently as a skill with cooldown reduction rather than rely on W, W needs a full rework, and ulti needs a real ADVANTAGE rather than being niche, even it means a heavy rework for the functionality and cooldown (like the damage amp mentioned).

ModCaptainMårvelous4 votes

Kindred has always had this problem since day one, although a lot of people disagreed with me. As cool as Kindred was visually and thematically, the selling part of 'This is the spirit of life and death' came from the particles, VO and character appearance. Riot took a pretty normal candy bar and wrapped it in the glossiest foil it could find to create a champion that looks amazing on paper but nothing beyond that.

Basically everyone's echo'd it here but yeah: If Kindred wants to be the embodiment of life and death, Lamb and Wolf need better synergy and better aspects in their kit. You could completely omit Wolf from the game and you'd have essentially the same character in terms of gameplay with nothing lost. Which is really fucked up for a champion sold as a duo concept.

Teemo Gromp1 votes

{quoted} When I hear Kindred, I think of gimmicky ADC.

When I hear Kindred, I think "cute". She really is. And fluffy. Both.

Spooky Peaches12 votes

A G R E E D

IcyPepper11 votes

+1 for title

Battalion10 votes

I play a lot of Kindred. I mean a lot as in I've played probably 80-85% kindred this entire season.. I do fairly well, 60% win rate in norms & ranked at a gold/plat level across accounts, which I get is not top-tier.

I've sincerely given up on playing my favourite champion. Kindred has not felt good to play since their first rework a year ago. I remember I was a mid main and picked up Kindred Mid-lane when they were on release, which was very good, and stayed good until the heal on the W was removed. When they were forced to be a Jungle only champion, I became a jungle main.

Then they removed Kindred's unique tank shredding BoTRK lite passive.

Then nerf, nerf, nerf, nerf ever since. There's not been any buffs that haven't been reverted before they hit live that I know of. Every jungler got attack speed increases from the nerfing of Machete besides kindred.

Kindred has the lowest speed tier of any jungler. Literally the only two champions with lower base speed are Janna and unmounted Kled.

325 vs 335+ for every other jungler with Graves at 345 base movement. Yet those junglers aren't made to zip around the map trying to collect normally highly contested marks just to scale into mid and late game.

Just because the few good kindred players can pull near consistent wins doesn't mean the champion is in a good or even acceptable spot.

I illustrate1 votes

{quoted}

I play a lot of Kindred. I mean a lot as in I've played probably 80-85% kindred this entire season.. I do fairly well, 60% win rate in norms & ranked at a gold/plat level across accounts, which I get is not top-tier.

I've sincerely given up on playing my favourite champion. Kindred has not felt good to play since their first rework a year ago. I remember I was a mid main and picked up Kindred Mid-lane when they were on release, which was very good, and stayed good until the heal on the W was removed. When they were forced to be a Jungle only champion, I became a jungle main.

Then they removed Kindred's unique tank shredding BoTRK lite passive.

Then nerf, nerf, nerf, nerf ever since. There's not been any buffs that haven't been reverted before they hit live that I know of. Every jungler got attack speed increases from the nerfing of Machete besides kindred.

Kindred has the lowest speed tier of any jungler. Literally the only two champions with lower base speed are Janna and unmounted Kled.

325 vs 335+ for every other jungler with Graves at 345 base movement. Yet those junglers aren't made to zip around the map trying to collect normally highly contested marks just to scale into mid and late game.

Just because the few good kindred players can pull near consistent wins doesn't mean the champion is in a good or even acceptable spot.

no wonder the eternal hunters cant kill anyone. wolf is having a hard time keeping up [sg-janna]

Cowgirl Ed9 votes

lmfao @ title

Risen296 votes

Things are really bad when you're in the midst of overpowered ADC items, yet no one thinks it's a good idea to pack another ADC onto their team in the jungle.

Kats Pajamas1 votes

{quoted}

Things are really bad when you're in the midst of overpowered ADC items, yet no one thinks it's a good idea to pack another ADC onto their team in the jungle.

Twitch and Graves seems fine. It's maybe not ezreal jg meta, but they can do well there. The problem is kindred is DESIGNED to share this adc/jg role, and is worse than graves and twitch, who are not particularly themed to it in the first place.

Risen293 votes

{quoted}

Twitch and Graves seems fine. It's maybe not ezreal jg meta, but they can do well there. The problem is kindred is DESIGNED to share this adc/jg role, and is worse than graves and twitch, who are not particularly themed to it in the first place.

Graves doesn't count. He builds and plays more like an assassin than an ADC. That's why nobody takes him botlane.

Twitch is probably just a better jungler and a better ADC than kindred. He has more gank potential with his invisibility.

UpDownLeftRightAB6 votes

What if Kindred is a support? [sg-miss-fortune]

Naalith1 votes

There's a great support Kindred build where you build Ardent Censor and walk into the middle of the enemy team, then give them all the heal and the buff. It's viability has been hurt since Ardent doesn't heal now though.

CasterGilgamesh1 votes

like another marksmen MissFortune [sg-lulu]

Der Pfähler3 votes

I'm playing kindred in nearly every possible game. I had some very strong games, even after the rework. But now shortly before the 8.11 patch, I dropped in DuoQ from Gold II straight down to Gold IV, just because those scuttler changes and the XP-nerfs are killing her. She once was one of the strongest early game Champions, able to at least contest the first mark to gain the upper hand, but now I have to turn away if I see a Graves, Kha-Zix, Rengar, Xin, ... because I am not even level 3 with my E ready for a fight.

I had some hopes in 8.11 that Stormrazor or the new Keymastery would change the game for her but it got even worse. No sense in playing her anymore, she is too slow, too weak and too squishy for the current meta. Building krit is the only way but too costy and you get oneshotted by nearly everything. Building offtank with Trinity/Black Cleaver and some lifesteal prevents oneshots but your damage becomes negotiable.

This is just sad and I also decided to pull the plug and play another jungler.

Levantern2 votes

Agreed

The day I first joined league was when they had just been introduced live into the rift. The entire concept and music created for Kindred made me fall in love.

It’s difficult though, to play a champ you love so much only because they’re in such terrible state. Please show them some love. Pls

Ionian Vulpix2 votes

I actually enjoyed their rework because I like crit ADCs.

However, these last two game-changing patches have been devastating. They may have range, but they can't duel early on for the scuttle because they're still an ADC and have the base stats of one. So they lose out on scuttle, which means lost marks, which means a significant loss in power.

I don't know how all the item changes have effected them, but I'd imagine with the prices going up while they're still on a jungler's budget will completely screw them.

the weeaboo2 votes

Not to mention the gamebreaking HUD bug that I get when playing them with 100% reproducability rate now thats been around since KAISAs release. Goddamn I just want to play a match on Kindred without having to DC and get insanely behind because I missed the first scuttle window.

tunehunter1 votes

Oh you want to talk about bugs how about the bug where if kindred accidentally cancels the third auto while their E is on a champ and then autos them again the champ wont take the E damage

ChaddyFantome2 votes

So Kindred has been probably my all time favorite champion since their introduction

their

True main confirm'd [sg-ahri-2]

FilDaFunk1 votes

Death is nowhere to be seen.

Malfectious1 votes

I have had some fun with burst Kindred item 3147 item 1412item 3095 item 3094

Obviously the addition of item 3095 is new, but you get a lot of upfront damage, followed up by solid sustained damage. I would normally run electrocute, but I've also been considering hail of blades

rtbf2256182411 votes

Why is everyone hating on the rework? I went and looked at the 7.11 Patch Notes.

She was a walking item 3153 with burst stats in all of her abilities because of %/hp damage stats. Now she actually scales and behaves like a normal champion that has to work for the marks. How the fuck did that ruin the feel of the character? You lost the feel of getting free elo? Well i can't argue with that.

And as for the build paths, at least for me, it's works the same as before. item 1412 item 3006 item 3087 item 3094 item 3812 item 3026 or something else at the end.

Jbels3 votes

{quoted}

Why is everyone hating on the rework? I went and looked at the 7.11 Patch Notes.

She was a walking item 3153 with burst stats in all of her abilities because of %/hp damage stats. Now she actually scales and behaves like a normal champion that has to work for the marks. How the fuck did that ruin the feel of the character? You lost the feel of getting free elo? Well i can't argue with that.

And as for the build paths, at least for me, it's works the same as before. item 1412 item 3006 item 3087 item 3094 item 3812 item 3026 or something else at the end.

Let's break it down: Kindred used to be an early game powerhouse who would get red and then go kill the enemy jungler at level 2. They changed that by taking away her early game and shunting the power into late game scaling. The problem with that is that the jungle is now very unfriendly to champions with weak early games. If you have no early game power, you're sure as hell not contesting scuttler, and you most certainly have no control over what happens to you in your jungle over the course of the early to mid game

rtbf2256182411 votes

I have no problem with fighting most champions at level 2 and having Shaco's kill pressure early game is disgusting by definition.

DapperWolf1 votes

Unless you are playing on another account, you haven't really played any kindred recently outside of two games and both where loses. While the jungle does feel better than last patch Kindred is still fairly weak, while it is a bit early to judge, since patch 8.9 they have fallen 5% to 45% win rate ( https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/current/platinum/plus/champion/Kindred/ and http://champion.gg/champion/Kindred/Jungle? ).

And it is not kill presure Kindred needs, it's dueling potential, while similar not quite the same. Kindreds level 2 is really weak though since they lack e which includes the majority of their burst in any 1v1 earlygame and their only form of cc.

rtbf2256182411 votes

162 Ranked games and i don't even know how many in Normals. But yeah, 2 games, i guess.

Ofcourse she is weak in comparison with the likes of Kha or Rengar because they're both shitheads who jump on enemies and burst them to death, but turning her into a burst-champion that jumps around and blows up everyone, regardless of defensive stats is not the way to go. Soon enough you'll have every Jungler be a leap-assassin and Zac will get an assassin rework lol.

Besides, dueling potential? She has a lot of outplay potential inherently due to her Q and E interactions. And as a Jungler, she's usually not dueling anyway. I've killed many Lee Sins and Shyvanas on my own by outsmarting them. You can't just say "She can't stand around and slap more damage on Olaf than Olaf can slap damage on her, therefore she is useless."

DapperWolf1 votes

Yes, you have a total of 174 **TOTAL **ranked games on them as of writting this this season but that was not the number I was looking at but **RECENT **ones where there was only 2 I could see since it looks like you mostly play kayn at the moment but that is what I see of your recent stats.

There is also a big difference between sustained damage duelists and assassins like Kha and Rengar, you need to think more like Xhin Zhao (though he is a bit too strong at the moment) or shyvanna as in someone who can win a fight if they didn't get blown up.

The last part I never said, what I said was that when looking at stats they aren't doing that well in this jungle and how it currently looks the ad item changes doesen't do them any favors either.

I apologise if I came of as patronising, that was never my intent.

rtbf2256182411 votes

So..what? I don't have to play her every day to know what she's all about. It doesn't work that way.

Both Shyvana and Xin rotate their skillsets by cancelling their animations, creating burst combos. I've mained both of them for moderate amounts of time, i know that Shyvana wants to get her E in first and then use basic attacks + Q animation cancel while W is up for even more extra damage. This is a devastating burst of AD + %hp damage. Xin doesn't burst that hard because he simply doesn't have damage modifiers in his kit. He just heals up and essentially beats people with a stick. I find him..inferior. He's basically a Jax without a stun to me.

I think my original comment outlined the normal build path as well as it possibly could. I don't generally make anything else. Sure, crit was made more expensive but that's about it for me.

Zeppelins circus1 votes

The thing is in Riot's book, they didin't nerf kindred. They "reworked" her. Ironic and unfair isn't it?

Naalith1 votes

Yeah I know. Riot did "power neutral" changes to lots of my favorite champions. Power neutral just means making them way worse for players who are actually good at them while at the same time removing the most fun mechanics from the kit thus butchering the feel. This doesn't just apply to Kindred either.

tunehunter1 votes

I do not know what everyone else is doing with them. So far my best success has come from skipping hte jungle item early in favor of rushing BoRK. Cutless at 6 has helped with ganking and still provides decent sustain in and out of the jungle while providing about the same AD as a full warhammer. Being able to go straight into attack speed after that has been pretty good for me so far. I follow with storm and Ruunans so far which does get me a lot of attack speed with decent ad and crit. Still they do not feel great if you ask me. Going jungle item first isnt bad though it really isnt any different than before it is just you get no power spike after it for a long time.

Edit: I may try going storm first back with picking up a BF sword first back like old school ADC's

SettDownShutUp1 votes

Back when her passive stacking mini-game included %health damage, yeah it made sense for it to have a steep start-up time to get the ball rolling.

But by having her stacks affect everything she does, it feels as if nothing has meaningful impact. It feels like her stacking minigame is pointless instead of rewarding.

If they dropped the required number of stacks to 3 instead of 4 for her range increase to kick in, it wouldn't feel so bad.

Angel Kayn1 votes

Esse seria um belo momento para Riot repensar em desfazer o rework que eles fizeram lá atrás.

Holy Activist1 votes

Finally this gets addressed

Kaìju1 votes

Honestly I only see two options. Either make Kindred not an assassin and keep the jungle role, or keep the ADC role and move to bot lane. I think Twitch is the closest we have really gotten to a true ADC jungler and he only does it because of his Q ganks. Kindred in my opinion just cannot be a jungler.

Sancre1 votes

I want to begin this making clear that i'm no Kindred expert, as I only played her in jungle until they took the heal off and became quite unpleasant to jungle with her, but I do feel that this change could help her greatly in thematic and in jungling, as both are lacking right now:

Make her a switch champion, with swich based on death (sounds legit), while this could be unconvenient if you are focusing in one form, its actually not hard to die on Lol, and doesn't even have to give gold, as executes exist

Kindred begins as Wolf, a four legged beast made of darkness, even a bit bigger and bulkier than Warwick , while having lamb as a spirit floating around. Statswise, is sturdier, having more armor, hp and magic res, but less single target damage

His q is similar to Nidalee's pounce, but also has the lifesteal based on enemy hit, something potentially better than what Kindred originally lost, making early clears a bit more forgiving

His w puts down a Lamb spirit to shoot at everything that is around Wolf, she does low, constant damage and leaves a debuff that causes enemy units affected by her to be feared when they are damaged by Wolf, This fear can only be activated every 10 seconds or so, but gives a valuable cc to a bruiserish champion.

E works similar to pupeteer, an ancient item of the Market Brawlers, but coming from the enemy affected by the 3 hit proc skill, that once procced, causes the nearby champions to be dragged close to it, what could be used to create a super healing q and set up some combos. It could be interesting to add a heal or shield value based on number of enemy hits, as in order for Wolf to procc this, it has to be in the middle of the enemy team, so a bit of tankiness would be interesting if it manages to set this up

R Becomes an execute, everything that reaches low enough health inside the circle gets to die, and this includes allies or even Kindred itself

Lamb would remain the same, now able to be buffed independently from Wolf, but making the champion way more versatile, like Kayn or Gnar

Zee Zone1 votes

Kinderd main here and everyone here are putting my thoughts into words better than i ever could. I'm really worried that the new nunu would have better duo mechanics than the champ emphasized to do so.

Sammanman1 votes

Nah keep kindred the same, learn to play them as is

Naalith1 votes

I am one of the few people who thinks Kindred doesn't need a major rework, I actually really like their kit a ton. They are just really underpowered and the rework made them really janky.

Sammanman1 votes

I agree i think theyre fine but with the adc nerf and if smite becomes a thing smite kindred bot has potential. Needs a tank support though

TeemoEatsCereals1 votes

Why we cant play As The Wolf TOO like nidalee, just wtf why we cant switch from ranged to melee KIDREAD ARE 2 WHY WE PLAY ONLY ONE

Vlada Cut1 votes

So they used to be a chaser eh? Oh I know! Make them a chaser as good as a hunter known as Kaisa.

...really though, I like Kindred adc-like build, plus the fact I've seen a good amount of Kindred players shining. Would be fun to see them more often too.

Lightwellian1 votes

I believe Kin will be fine if the Jg XP is reverted and their W changes to give flat AD or execution damage when Wolf bites.

By the time you have enough marks for her W to do anything, you're already a hypercarry, and Wolf's chip damage isn't doing anything. Most times, if I use Wolf to get a kill, it's because my enemy is hiding under a tower. Because Wolf outranges them, I can stand outside the tower's range and place my danger zone. Only problem is that he's oftentimes dealing low %current HP damage to a low-Health target, which is annoying and ineffective. Everything else is fine for me.

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