Vayne, of all champions, should not be an assassin

Teridax68··4 votes·577 views

So Vayne's pretty strong right now, with a 20% pick rate and 51% win rate following the Preseason update (champions with high pick rates should generally not have high win rates). However, that much is (relatively) fine, because that can be solved by tuning down her numbers. The deeper problem with Vayne right now is that she's treated as an assassin, when she's probably one of the last champions who should ever come close to an assassin pattern.

For a fair while, Riot themselves have called Vayne an assassin marksman, and there's some of that built into her kit: she's mobile, closer-ranged than most marksmen, and can turn herself invisible. However, what completely opposes all of this is her Silver Bolts: not only do they deal maximum health true damage, which is tuned to bypass all forms of defense, their counterplay requires that Vayne take time to kill targets, and leave herself open to counterattack while trailing her opponent. You cannot give an assassin access to literally the best anti-tank damage type around. If Vayne can kill any target at a relatively consistent pace, that is fine, but if she can kill a squishy within a single three-hit burst, that is not okay.

If nothing else, part of this issue might be a slight thematic mismatch: now that Riot elaborated a bit more on classes, Vayne comes across more as a hybrid between a marksman and a skirmisher/light fighter, rather than a marksman/assassin hybrid, which is why she has more target-agnostic damage, which Fiora's was likely based off of. She also has the persistent, relatively short-ranged mobility of a skirmisher, rather than the long-range burst mobility of an assassin, and above-average defensive/CC tools for an assassin, which fits a skirmisher pretty well. Basically, she's designed to be a great duelist who kills any enemy in relatively similar spans of time, which means she currently needs to deal less damage to squishies, even if her damage versus tanks remains unchanged.

A large part of Vayne's issues comes from marksman itemization naturally leading to some degree of burst-per-second damage output, but Vayne makes some of those effects worse, namely with her Q and ult. For Vayne to no longer be an assassin, her Q should no longer interact with crit, and her ultimate should no longer give raw AD. All of that just gives her more flat damage. In exchange, perhaps she could have her W damage scale somewhat with AD, and perhaps her ult could give her more utility to let her survive teamfights, instead of damage she doesn't need. At this point, though, she could stand to just have some raw power knocked off, and those changes would push her into a healthier space.

TL;DR: Vayne is not an assassin and under no circumstances should be an assassin, otherwise her W loses both meaning and counterplay. If anything, she plays more like a skirmisher/light fighter and should have target-agnostic DPS, rather than burst that also happens to be good against tanks over time. Her Q shouldn't crit, her ult shouldn't give bonus AD, and if she needs compensation, her ult should give her utility to let her survive or contribute more in teamfights.

15 Comments

Neko Caitlyn2 votes

TLDR

Annie pressed RQW and Vayne died

stop being bad

A Doorknob1 votes

Personally I think she should go through a rework with Kalista. Get dumpstered until Riot can actually balance her kit. She's no fun to play against and if you're a tank, it's even worst.

khorney1 votes

are you serious right now lol thornmail ice born frozen heart and she is dead. have fun killing ur self ther vayne

A Doorknob1 votes

{quoted}

are you serious right now lol thornmail ice born frozen heart and she is dead. have fun killing ur self ther vayne

You named 3 items which 1 is irrelevant. She also couldn't care less about your armor even less about your thornmail. She makes all of her hp back on her 3rd shot due to true dmg. Rammus is afraid of her, he does not counter her. I still don't quite get your argument. Frozen heart yes, but the rest means nothing. She's not going to sit there idle and let you kill her nor will she sit there and allow an entire team to kill her.

khorney1 votes

i dont have a issue playing as leona agaisnt her, i mean old taric was my main agasint vayne i havent played hsi rework nor will i ever play it. more armor more damage back to her

Teridax682 votes

I don't think Vayne is in nearly as bad a state as Kalista, since Kalista is basically two champions mushed into one, but some parts of her design have aged a bit for sure. Her passive, for example, is extremely powerful, but doesn't feel that impactful to the Vayne player, while contributing to her target's frustration by making her that much more difficult to escape at all times.

A Doorknob1 votes

{quoted}

I don't think Vayne is in nearly as bad a state as Kalista, since Kalista is basically two champions mushed into one, but some parts of her design have aged a bit for sure. Her passive, for example, is extremely powerful, but doesn't feel that impactful to the Vayne player, while contributing to her target's frustration by making her that much more difficult to escape at all times.

You don't think so? Atleast Kalista had to Kite for a bit. Vayne kites you for 3 shots and your dead, it barely even matter if you're a tank and with the add on of her invisibility + Q crit well this is more true than ever. It leaves very little room for counter play and almost requires you to have an assassin to eliminate her.

Teridax682 votes

On a larger scale, Vayne's issue of burst could be solved just by reducing her damage. She would need more work afterwards, but she wouldn't be able to burst squishies any more than marksman itemization would allow her. By contrast, Kalista's issues are that she does too much and specializes in contradictory strengths, i.e. dueling via her passive and Rend, while also maximizing her ally synergy. For sure, Vayne is annoying right now, but there is a state where she can be less annoying and still fun to play, just by being a bit less strong. Kalista, on the other hand, can only ever be either massively weak or grossly overpowered while in her current state, which sucks either way.

A Doorknob2 votes

{quoted}

On a larger scale, Vayne's issue of burst could be solved just by reducing her damage. She would need more work afterwards, but she wouldn't be able to burst squishies any more than marksman itemization would allow her. By contrast, Kalista's issues are that she does too much and specializes in contradictory strengths, i.e. dueling via her passive and Rend, while also maximizing her ally synergy. For sure, Vayne is annoying right now, but there is a state where she can be less annoying and still fun to play, just by being a bit less strong. Kalista, on the other hand, can only ever be either massively weak or grossly overpowered while in her current state, which sucks either way.

I agree with you, but Riot will not do it. They could easily add a maximum cap to Vaynes true dmg, or add cooldowns to her silver bolts, or add a real cooldown to her Q or make her Camouflage. In season 6 it was fine because they nerfed her base dmg so hard that allowing her to climb in to late game made it very difficult. But now, with the add on of invisibility, buffing BOTRK, and added crits to Q, Added % to silver bolts, we've returned to the finally of season 5 where Vaynes are everywhere and even stronger before.

BIackfox1 votes

Her q shouldn't crit and r shouldn't give ad.

I laughed so hard

khorney1 votes

so i can play as varus and kill a squishy off 2 moves so i do not get what you are complaining about.

Teridax681 votes

Okay, but that's a separate issue, even if several marksmen do tend to have that problem. If your champion has maximum health damage, that implies that they're better at busting tanks, or, put another way, that they aren't meant to burst squishies down too quickly.

khorney1 votes

again my hybrid on hit varus can and does 2 shot squishies and tank bust. i build him this way becasue its fun and the damage is freacking awesome.

Teridax681 votes

Okay, but that's your specific build that works for you. My point is that, by design, no champion with tankbusting abilities should also have anti-squishy burst, because that generally means no class of champion can comfortably approach them.

khorney1 votes

it works, however the issue is its late game and with the change to fervor which i prefer the old one by far i do not benefit as much as the old one did.

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