Make Sivir's Auto Attack Range 525!!!!

Icy Witch·Dec 6, 2014·45 votes·3,699 views

Hi, I'm "The Mighty Sivir" and yes, I am slightly biased towards Sivir buffs, but I also play this champion more than a lot of people and am able to recognize core flaws. Sivir is almost perfect to me. I love her balance and overall concept except for this one thing... Her range. If Sivir's range were 525 it would make her more reliable into the late game. The problem I find is that Sivir's early to mid game goes as planned, but in the late game you're forced to be a split pusher, which makes her ult so much more useless because you don't get to use it with your team. If Sivir were to go into a 5v5, she's already at a disadvantage for naturally being out of position because of her range. 525 range is still short in range (i.e. Graves), but it is not suicide. I think this would be a reasonable change and would allow for more diversity in Sivir's playstyle. I'm not saying she needs more damage, or a buff in any other way for that matter. Just 25 more range and I think she'd be in a good spot.

Plz rito.

50 Comments

Kowe The EwokDec 6, 201414 votes

I'ld rather like to see her Q's CD to scale with level to be able to use Q more frequently in teamfights. (Which basically is a way of granting her range)

(Still gave you a +1 since I'ld love to see some attention for non-hyper carries)

Icy WitchDec 6, 20146 votes

Thank you! And I agree, some love for the non-hyper carries is warranted!

AnidanDec 6, 20147 votes

I agree. Buff up Sivir's range. Vayne, one of my favorite carries, gets 550 meaning she is innately safer late game than Sivir. Along with getting more short-term positioning tools, and a self-peel/CC in the form of condemn. Granted, Vayne also doesn't get the monster wave-clear Sivir does, but that is beside the point.

Sivir could use the buff, it certainly wouldn't break her.

kanachoDec 6, 20146 votes

It's funny because Vayne is criticized for having short AA range and it's more than Sivir's according to what you said (I haven't looked it up myself). Still I find that really weird that someone has quite less range than Vayne...

AnidanDec 6, 20141 votes

Yeah, I have the wiki up. It's 550, making it longer than Graves' range (525), sivir's range (500), Jinx' non-Fishbones range (525), Kog'maw's base range (of 500), and Lucian's range (500). Her range is actually fairly standard, it just feels short.

IwfiKe3qjMDec 6, 20141 votes

I thought Jinx range is 525... (non Fishbone)

AnidanDec 6, 20141 votes

It is, but Vayne's is still 550. Sorry, my post didn't make that clear - I was fairly inconsistent with ranges.

kanachoDec 6, 20141 votes

XtremeyDec 6, 20141 votes

Yeah, I have the wiki up. It's 550, making it longer than Graves' range, sivir's range, Jinx' non-Fishbones range, Kog'maw's base range (of 500), and Lucian's range of 500. Her range is actually fairly standard, it just feels short.

even with lv 1 w, kog's range goes up to 630

GorgannanDec 6, 20145 votes

It feels short because every one of those champions has an ability with range, and Vayne does not.

Ale non è maleDec 6, 20146 votes

Vayne is criticized for low range because she has not long range abilities, and the only way she can gain range, unlike other similar aa champs likefor example twitch, is to use her dash that is also her escape(and I understand it has a short CD, but you still must go in and put yourself in a position of danger for some time before being able to come out

MathbalnaseDec 6, 20141 votes

It's funny because Vayne is criticized for having short AA range and it's more than Sivir's according to what you said (I haven't looked it up myself). Still I find that really weird that someone has quite less range than Vayne...

No, Vayne is criticized for having short range everything. (ie. she has only one other non-steroid ability, and it shares the same range)

Sivir has shorter ranged AAs, yes, but she also has a relatively long range poke from her Q, and hypothetically infinite range from her W (and even without the hypothetical case, the practical case is still relatively long range).

Most ADCs have abilities that allow them to interact with their opponents at ranges greater than that of their AAs. Vayne is criticized because she lacks this, not because her AAs themselves are particularly short-ranged. Or, at least, that is the criticism leveled against her by people who aren't idiots.

The5lackerDec 7, 20143 votes

Vayne ONLY has her 550 range autoattack.

Sivir has her 1250 range Q (which hits like a truck at max range due to the nigh-unavoidable double-hit) and her W's ability to hit you from the length of a minion wave away.

Vayne is a short ranged champion with average AA range. Sivir is a long ranged champion with short AA range. It's weird but that's kinda how casters work.

AnonagonDec 6, 20143 votes

I disagree that she needs a range buff. The main reason I disagree is that Sivir is somewhat defined by the fact that her range and extended presence comes from her abilities. She uses Q and W to effect targets over a wide area, and with the speed from her passive and her R, she isn't really hindered in any way by her low AA range. I don't believe Sivir actually needs buffs. She may be more situational than other picks, but her strength is there. If she were to get buffs, I'd much rather emphasize the damage of her Q in lategame teamfights with a lower CD/higher ratio.

Icy WitchDec 6, 20141 votes

If they did do something with her q to allow her to be more effective in teamfights I would be pleased. So I agree with you. :) In essence I want her to have a better presence in teamfights than just her ult, because her ult is meant for teamfighting, yet she is not.

Ale non è maleDec 6, 20141 votes

Q isn't so effective in teamfights cause she has useless AP ratio that are really odd Sivir could either use

an AA buff range
gain base damage or some AD ratio on Q deleting the Ap ratio from it

MidEvilKnight3kDec 6, 20143 votes

Q does scale off of AD. In fact it scales off of ad very well.

Ale non è maleDec 6, 20142 votes

I know, but Sivir Q scales both off AD and AP, the base damage is pretty low and it has damage reduction after the 1st enemy hit. Scrap that useless Ap ratio and add further AD ratio or base damage at latest level

MathbalnaseDec 7, 20141 votes

How much of a return would you expect to get from scrapping a 'useless AP ratio'? Hint: you just called it 'useless'

Ale non è maleDec 7, 20141 votes

Increase by 10% Ad scaling(if they want to buff her a lot) or + 0/5/10/15/20 base damage(if they just want to slightly help her late game) I think Sivir is in a good spot because she is a good strategic niche pick and a kit that doesn't make her completely useless even if really behind, but a little bit of help for her late game power wouldn't be bad

5G8Nri0B54Dec 7, 20143 votes

You don't quite get it.

Scrapping the AP ratio won't do ANYTHING to it's AD ratios as they have nothing to do with one another. She can have like a 5.0 AP ratio and her AD ratio wouldn't change either as they have no connection. Is it completely pointless on her? Yes. But removing it does nothing.

Ale non è maleDec 7, 20141 votes

I sense somoene butthurt for having their ass kikced by Sivir here

"You don't quite get it". Exactly, how?

We were talking to: What kind of buffs would you give to Sivir? I have answered both you and the other guys above. And any of you hasn't answered about balance problems it would eventually create and stuff like that. You pointed out on semantics and things like that for basically no reason Removing AP ratio on her doing nothing? Yeah, because these Ap ratio aren't used at all since all the rest of her kit rely upon AD. I would eliminate them for simlpe clarity reason, no matter if it leads to buffs or nerfs to Sivir, because it's incoherent have some AP ratio that no one will use it But why Sivir shouldn't see buffs regardless of whatever happens to those Ap ratio, is the questions you and some of the guys that posted above you didn't answer

MathbalnaseDec 7, 20141 votes

No. 'We were talking' about what would be a fair exchange for something that you described as 'useless'. That was the question I explicitly posed. That was the question you were ostensibly answering. That was the question you seemingly failed to grasp.

Any buffs that she might need/deserve/receive are a separate matter to a prospective equal exchange.

Ale non è maleDec 7, 20141 votes

No, the true problem is that you are using punctiliously semantic question to avoid to answer to the core point The question you posed as nothing to do with Sivir state, is the tactic to answer to a question with another question to shift away from the starting point The Ap ratio on Sivir are odd and need to go regardless of the buffs/nerff, once you touch her Q you can easily delete them for clarity. Sivir Q is very old, and back in time Riot used to put AP and Ad ratio on it because it used to deal magic damage. B But even if these ratio are useless - think about of AP ratio on Ashe ulti - the strength of an ability is still a bit balanced about that, If Ashe ulti was changed to Ad ratio, it should have been decreased on base damage. Sivir doesn't have to get fair exchange for her Ap ratio that worth 0, she would eventually need an increase in damage, because that's what was talking about and that's what YOU was asnwering to, not on semantics. So it's not a question of "fair exchange" like you try to describe that to shitf the point, it should be make on one side make Sivir Q coherent, on the other side overall increasing its damage

Add something meaningful to the discussion instead of a bad attempt to troll using semantic, please

supes the lostDec 7, 20141 votes

I would like to mention that majority of the time, AP ratios are added to abilities to make people feel like they are getting more out of a sheen, and later, a trinity force purchase so the AP is helpful and not just there.

Ale non è maleDec 7, 20141 votes

Trinity Force on Sivir? Who goes that way?

supes the lostDec 7, 20141 votes

I'm not saying that trinity on Sivir is a great item, I'm saying that AP scaling on champs that are AD make is so that if you do decide to get a trinity on an AD champ, your AP isn't just there.

Ale non è maleDec 8, 20141 votes

Sivir has Ap scalings though because is a very old champ and her Q was originally magic damage, not because Trinity was never a good choice on her(even because by building Trinity you lose most of the effect of W related steroids(W and ulti passive)

IwfiKe3qjMDec 6, 20143 votes

I hope for this:

Q CD reduced each rank
E Spell shield duration increased from 1.5 to 2... (it's hard to timing when run out of mana to restore)

MrSc0ttyDec 7, 20143 votes

I dunno I feel like Sivir should get more of a "high skill" buff than a straight "here we noticed your range is short so let's make it longer."

Maybe I'm just a biased melee lover but I think it's okay to have a champ who's better at fighting other ranged carries than melee champs (as her ult allows her to close the gap on long ranged enemies and lock them down.

If I were to buff Sivir, it'd be something like -X% of Q's cooldown refunded for every enemy champion you hit twice with the skill.

Icy WitchDec 7, 20141 votes

That's a pretty neat concept with the cooldown, I never thought of that.

Ale non è maleDec 7, 20141 votes

Your "high skill" spell is the E. Time it correctly and you get mana back amd block an enemy spell that could be deadly And since there is no mechanism for CD reduction of it, if you fuck it up its use, you are without the core mechanism around which Sivir kit is built

NightblooDec 7, 20143 votes

Sivir main here. Ive been playing her since s1. i got from b5 to plat with mainly sivir. Her range has its moments where u wish it was longer, but she already has so much as far as gap close without a gap closer. Also with a spellshield why would u want more range. Think about this. If her range was longer. It would still require you to get into range of their spells to absorb them. So extra range may not really help that much.

Not to mention she has an auto reset. That in itself helps out with making up with the tiny bit of time you lose moving the extra 2 steps it takes to get into range. Sure they get one auto and are in the windup for their second, but you are going to get 2 off instantly. Couple that with your q. That is a ton of damage fast.

Its not like sivir has nothing, and needs something to make her better. She is amazing, and has been forever. It just takes the right hands and right mindset to play her properly. Lane goes as follows. Push like its all you can do. Then while they waste mana on the minions that are eating their turret. Jump up and w creeps to do some damage. E to block the predictable spell coming for creeps, and profit. Keep lane warded. Help the support for god sakes. Then laugh when the jungle tries to camp bot, but again spellshield and the gank is negated unless you dont have proper vision. I cant count how many lee sin players have came into lane. Flash q to get it shielded. Then just turn around and go back into the jungle.

I also miss old BT for sivir. Stacking 6 and laughing as your q does over 2k to someone who is isolated is nice. Tank or not lol.

jade harley BARKDec 7, 20143 votes

Quinn has a larger range than Sivir. You know there's an issue when a bruiser/fighter has a larger range than an actual adc

Yxion the YordleDec 6, 20142 votes

I agree.

GorgannanDec 6, 20142 votes

You want to buff her range, you'll need to giv eup her ult.

Pythagorean ThmDec 7, 20141 votes

Yeah okay let's remove the weaknesses and add to the strengths of a champion that's extremely annoying to lane against. Sounds like a great idea. (I know OP only wanted a range buff, but some other comments wanted more)

As for the range buff... I still say no! She has a passive that gives her really good kiting, a spell shield that costs nothing and gives her mana, an extremely long range poke ability, and an ultimate that's a better talisman. She's safe as all fk. She needs to have moments of vulnerability. Lucian also has 500 range because of his safety.

Oh and did yall forget about the extra attack speed she gets when ricochet is active after level 6? I don't know what the community considers the definition of a "hypercarry" to be, but a ranged ad champion with attack speed and movement speed steroids can definitely carry hard.

OrangesilkDec 7, 20143 votes

80% bonus AS for all of 3 blows at 500 range is far from being a steroid, TBH, I use it more for the AA-reset into a double attack than the "steroid". Second, her movement speed boost is cool, but please, take a look at Kalista, it's like Sivirs passive but a million times better.

Sivir is an ADC that has a hard time carrying a team that's behind, but she's a great game ender if things are going your way, specially if there's fed bruisers on the team. The way her abilities work, she's not a great solo Q pick, but is a fantastic organized team pick in the right comp. I'm not exactly sure why she isn't a more popular competitive pick, but it probably has more to do with the state of toplane and bruisers in general, if bruisers were in a good competitive place, so would be Sivir.

Icy WitchDec 7, 20143 votes

Very insightful, I completely agree. When your team falls behind, as a Sivir, you fall with them. I suppose I'm searching for a way to make her more reliable as a solo queue pick, as it is extremely frustrating to be playing as the carry role, with all the nooks and crannies to be a carry, but fall short of actually carrying anything because of her natural hindrances. That's why I came up with the auto attack range buff, but I'm no expert. I'm just going off of the feel of Sivir playing countless games, and I think this would be an all right solution.

Ale non è maleDec 7, 20141 votes

When your team falls behind, as a Sivir, you fall with them.

I disagree completely. Sivir is not MF. As written in another comment, one of Sivir uniqueness is that even if everything goes south you can still stay relevant someway. You can become the shotcaller or allow for successful chases/escapes for your team with your ulti and you can bait enemies in trap or splitpush on your own to keep pressure off your team with the spellshield. You can help your team to make the max profit from a win teamfight, as your ulti and your W allow for fast taking down of objectives

And I see the reasons why many people oppose to AA range. After all, range being a weakness is a fair trade-off for what Sivir has. And also an overall low damage ouput is a fair trade-off. The question is: could Sivir damage be a bit higher without significantly change her strengths and weaknesses? I think increasing a bit Q base damage(or AD ratio, but I admit buff AD ratio could probably be too much of an help) at latest levels could do the trick.

The5lackerDec 7, 20141 votes

Ricochet functionally gives her infinite attack range so long as a minion wave is nearby.

If you want to buff one aspect of her harassment like this, you have to pay for it in something else. Which...come on. Do you really need INFINITE bounces on that fucker? Wouldn't you rather have, like, 2 bounces that move faster than Soraka Bananas?

OrangesilkDec 7, 20143 votes

Don't stand in your minion wave, there you go, solved the problem. Not to mention, since no one levels up ricochet first, it's a VERY weak poke, very mana intensive, that shoves the lane and leaves her very exposed to a gank, which is something very rough for an almost escapeless ADC with no CC.

Her laning phase is nothing special, rather weak due to her range, her midgame is either godlike or average depending on how well your team is doing, then her lategame is VERY rough, due to her range again, her main powerspike is conditional, this is not an ADC that can carry games by herself, throwing her a TINY bone during lanephase might help push her a bit into viability.

Big Nasty MèatDec 7, 20141 votes

Mmm...Sivir is fine. She already has a +50% win rate and is on the cusp of becoming a primary competitive pick again. She's strong in every phase of the game and has unmatched wave control from the ADC position. To say she needs any kind of buff is kind of ridiculous.

Kowe The EwokDec 7, 20141 votes

I hate how Riot balances along winrate.... This leads to inappropriate balancing for easier / more difficult to play champions.

Why I wouldn't call Sivir easy to master she can be really effective when fighting in Bronze Elo where people don't know the basics and feel overwhelmed when somebody suddenly starts pushing....

Ale non è maleDec 7, 20143 votes

She's strong in every phase of the game

I strongly disagree. The correct thing to say is that Sivir doesn't become completely useless even in the lowest point of his power curve(late game) because her kit has various tools you can play creatively around to keep her relevant(her passive,spell shield, ulti)

But powerwise, she falls off really hard late game. Even Caitlyn Q(which is rather bad late game), gives more damage on a single hit than Sivir Q(and you got to be creative or really well positioned despite the 500 AA range to hit an enemy 2 times with the Q). Except Ashe, she is literaly behind every other ADC late game damage wise

I love this nature of "counter everyone, be countered by everyone" that basically her kit provide, but to say that she is strong in every phase of the game is kinda wrong when she lose in damage by everyone not named Ashe(and Ashe is hit hard damage wise because she has good AA range + slow + ulti stun)

Brenticus12Dec 7, 20141 votes

I really don't think an AA range buff would be the correct way to buff Sivir. She's the only ADC outside of Graves and Lucian that I enjoy playing but I don't play ADC or most of the ADC champs a whole lot, so don't take my suggestions too seriously, but I believe giving her a lower CD on her Q and maybe a buff to her R passive would be a good start to keep her relevant. She has a lot of gap closers, peel and ranged harass + wave clear so the relatively short AA range is justified.

Knight SoIaire Dec 7, 20141 votes

If i recall correctly there is a couple of reasons why sivir was nerfed and wont get buffed back

fast engage or rush the carry comps rewolving around sivir were actualy usefull so riot gutted her

As an adc she is still fine besides the nerf on her spinning blade (they added the range to a slow skill shot that has to return, now you will never get half of your dmg, at least thats what i noticed when i played her after that nerf) which made it medicorely reliable.

You know she got nerfed because riot wanted more "strategic diversity" like lucian and lee sin in every game just because they get to be the jack's of all trades

But dont blame riot, blame the lcs because they call the shots on whats getting nerfed buffed or stays untouched (whatever they get their hands on is what riot will care about, whatever can start a mixer in champion pool has to be gutted, any stuff that could take the place of the current pool without realy changing much can be buffed to make it look like we have "diversity")