Can we think for a second here?

Baunjo·Dec 7, 2015·4 votes·903 views

For some reason there has been a whole lot of complaining about itemization. After this much needed rework of AD items people have been religiously complaining that AP champions have poor items and desperately need more, specifically CDR. Now help me understand, for champions that tend to have insanely high spell damage, wave clear, and more than often a very very prominent disable or CC, do they really need to reach 45% CDR? I mean think about it. The amount of viable magic resist items for a tank to build is very limited. Likewise, other classes have to sacrifice a great deal of power in order to actually build magic resist. Guess what that means? Mages do obscene amounts of damage! Unless you feel the need to change magic resist around and give it more options, it is just plain stupid to make it that easy for an AP mage to get to 45% CDR.

35 Comments

SerevasDec 7, 20154 votes

Is it important for "mages" to reach 45% CDR? Yeah it kind of is since they do zero damage when their abilities are down. AD champions can still auto attack and deal damage, champions that build AP don't have that any longer after the mastery changes, no more Arcane Blade, no more auto attack damage bonuses leaving any ap building champion's auto attacks, minus kassadin, irrelevant. Abilities on CD? Enjoy getting out damaged by minions.

There's never a situation where you're going to build any set of these CDR items that equates to anything above 30% CDR, it's actually so difficult to reach 45% CDR at this point in time for AP champions that it's becoming meta for them to build to deal with mana issues, CDR difficulties, and the increased expenses of their items, which leads me into my next point.

If you look at what happened to ap items, basically every item now costs more, and/or got stat nerfs on the items, with a few very rare situations. Lichbane is now 200g more, Athene's 100g more, Liandry's 200g more, Luden's 200g more, Morellonomicon 250g more grievous wounds nerfed, Deathcap 300g more, RoA 300g more, Void Staff 150g more, Zhonya's 500g more, 5 less armor, Archangel's 100g more, Seeker's Armguard 10 less armor, mana pots gone.

What this means is the typical AP champions now requires about 1500g more to build their items, meanwhile magic resistance items now give more magic resistance, so for their increased gold expenditure, they're actually weaker.

Masteries, the new masteries are great, for AD champions, do they have some interesting stuff for AP champions? Sure, but there's two paths to take 18/12/0, or 12/18/0. You're obligates to take either Deathfire Touch, which only works on very few champions well, or Thunderlord's Decree, which pretty much commits you to the 45% CDR path. AD champions can take Warlord's Bloodlust, Fervor of Battle, Deathfire Touch in some situations, Thunderlord's Decree, and even Stormraider's Surge.

Other champions need to sacrifice a great deal to itemize into MR? Last I checked AP champions are the only champions that have to deal with an item being built that increases resistances across the entire enemy team, which nullifies our obligatory magic penetration runes, and then provides additional resistances on top of that. So sorry that you might have to invest in a item 1033 that doesn't build into anything you could possibly use.....oh wait item 3139 item 3111 item 3156 item 3102 item 3065 . What do we AP based mid lane mages get from armor that's of any use to us at all? item 3157 , which is also 500 gold more expensive now for fewer stats.

BaunjoDec 7, 20151 votes

So what about tanks? I mean they do zero damage when their abilities are down. That's just not fair? And after a certain point you only need 1 spell rotation to kill a single person and often 1 spell rotation to destroy an enemy team. And are you seriously about to complain about zhonyas? That item has been riots little baby, the active makes up for any problem you may possibly have, especially with how obscenely low the cooldown is.

SerevasDec 7, 20153 votes

That's a heavy exaggeration on Zhonyas, it sure doens't solve any problem you could possibly have, if you get caught out zhonyas delays your death by 2.5 seconds, nothing more. How obscenely low the cooldown is? Have you ever looked at item 3140 ? It literally gets you out of all disables, including suppressions, removes any debuffs, including ones required for a champion's kit to function. At least if I Zhonyas Caitlyn's ultimate she gets the cooldown practically refunded. QSS Malz ultimate and he goes back to being mostly useless. QSS actually breaks Nocturne's ultimate, and Zed is rendered a caster minion. It also gives you that active for 1300g as opposed to 3500g.

Tanks can also easily itemize CDR through their items item 3065 item 3190 item 3025 item 3110 item 3071

The game is currently straight back to league of tanks, so no one spell rotation doesn't slaughter a whole team, in fact it typically only slaughters an ADC that gets caught out of position for not being a competent ADC.

The fact remains that AP itemization was as bad, if not worse than AD itemization, and still is. AP itemization needed a full rework just like AD itemization did, and didn't get it, not only did it not happen, it's actually worse because everything worth buying aside from Abyssal scepter is more expensive. At least you don't have to choose between getting your CDR from boots to give up invaluable flat magic penetration, and building a support item to hit max CDR.

BaunjoDec 8, 20151 votes

That 2.5 seconds is not a delay for your death don't even try that shit. Also buying QSS is increasingly useless because any AD champion that would need to build that against an AP lane is simply sacraficing a great deal of power for 1 single item. Ever see any AD mid buy that item first? No, and if they did they suck. Ever see a top laner buy that? Not until late game, due to the dwindling number of champions thats actually useful against.

Oh and QSS just completely negates something that makes the champions kit work? AND ZHONYAS DOESNT?

Yeah CDR is very important on a tank, they do little to no damage otherwise and thus HAVE to have abilities up to accomplish anything except stand around and be a meat shield. A mage could have at least killed 1 person if not more in 1 spell rotation...

AP itemization is not worse than AD itemization to any stretch of the imagination. Just because you don't get precious CDR does not mean you have shit to complain about.

SerevasDec 8, 20153 votes

LOL Well nobody builds Zhonyas in lane first either, not sure what you're smoking, but you should probably look into trying something else. I also never suggested QSS be bought first item either as it would probably be the dumbest thing I've ever seen. Almost as dumb as you arguing my own point back and attempting to use it to justify your own. It's also kind of sad that you seem to lack the understanding of the purpose of a tank, which basically is to be a meat shield for your carries, by definition.

I also fail to see how the champion pool it's useful against is dwindling. Let's look at the list of champions that it affects. Ahri Akali Amumu Anivia Annie Ashe Bard Braum Cassiopeia Darius Diana DrMundo Ekko Elise Fiddlesticks Fizz Galio Gnar Gragas Hecarim Heimerdinger Illaoi Irelia Jax Jinx Kalista Karma Karthus Kassadin Kayle Kennen Kindred KogMaw Leblanc LeeSin Leona Lissandra Lulu Lux Malphite Malzahar Maokai Mordekaiser Morgana Nami Nasus Nautilus Nocturne Nunu Olaf Pantheon Poppy Rammus Renekton Rengar Riven Rumble Ryze Sejuani Shaco Shen Sion Skarner Sona Soraka Swain Syndra TahmKench Talon Taric Teemo Thresh Tryndamere TwistedFate Twitch Udyr Urgot Varus Vayne Veigar Velkoz Viktor Warwick Xerath XinZhao Zed Zilean Zyra

Looks like quite a few champions to me, in fact to be precise t hat's 90 that I've listed, and I'm pretty sure that I missed some. Dwindling list indeed.

There's numerous things about AP itemization to complain about, but since you don't play AP champions you wouldn't understand it if I attempted to explain it to you. I realize now that you're actually talking completely out of your own ignorance for the topic, and that this is a complete waste of time.

Enjoy your fantasy world and be sure to send a post card once you remember the address for reality.

BaunjoDec 8, 20151 votes

You really did not understand the one part of my argument that you decided to go off on. QSS would be a great item against Fiora for example but the magic resist will not benefit you in lane whatsoever. That is just one champion and i would be more than happy to give you more examples if you insist.

And why wouldn't you build zhonyas first in lane? Especially against an AD mid. You are not sacraficing any power by building zhonyas as your first item like you may if you built QSS

SerevasDec 8, 20151 votes

LOL because there's numerous other things you should be building before you finish Zhonyas, especially because it is actually detrimental to your performance. Unless you're getting completely stomped in lane you shouldn't bother going much beyond a Seeker's Armguard. You really need to play the champions before you try to make these arguments.

Zhonyas is a core 3rd item, not first, and only MAYBE second on Kennen, but even that isn't as optimal as other items.

BaunjoDec 8, 20151 votes

You are putting your opinion as a fact. I own and have played every champion besides yorick and sona. I have played since pre season 3. Please tell me more about how I need to play these champions before I make these arguments. I have said and will say again what disadvantage are you put at by buiding zhonyas for your first item? Or even Second?? Or even third??? Or at all? QSS is frankly very one sided so to say that QSS is a great solution to this problem is completely false.

SerevasDec 8, 20151 votes

There's a big difference between having played in the past and played the current situation, as from your match history you haven't played an AP based champ unless you count Janna since the pre season changes came out.

What am I losing for Zhonyas earlier in the chain?

item 3089 20 AP with a 35% AP multiplier. item 3174 / item 3165 mana regeneration, magic resistance, overall basic lane sustain, massively important CDR. item 3027 general tankiness increased mana pool, 20 ap. item 3285 Movement speed, and strong poke with a side of waveclear. item 3020 Much needed spell penetration and movement speed. item 3100 Much needed spellblade for proper burst and much needed CDR.

You accuse me of presenting my opinion as fact, maybe you should look at yourself and this entire post as you're behaving in the exact same way.

BaunjoDec 9, 20151 votes

So because I havent played a lot of AP champions in the what 3 weeks preseason has been out I just do not have a valid opinion? And don't fucking condescend me with what the items do. I swear none of those items have changed that much at all besides the addition of ludens. Zhonyas can still be very very FUCKING VERY beneficial as your first item.

You aren't simply losing by building that first. You will just have to adjust your playstyle according to what you are buying first, that is not an issue whatsoever.

SerevasDec 9, 20151 votes

You asked what you were losing by building Zhonyas first, so I told you, it's not condescending, it's giving you the answer you requested.

Zhonyas isn't nearly as beneficial as any of those other items first, you shouldn't need Zhonyas as a first item ever, or you do need to adjust your playstyle, because you're so recklessly aggressive that you're just getting fucked.

What I'm saying is that your opinion is misinformed as you're out of touch with the situation you're talking about.

Champions like GP can run item 3508 item 3078 and until this patch that just came out, have max CDR, 40% crit, spellblade, and mana sustain from the critical strikes, while still dealing substantial damage with both abilities and auto attacks. Then you add Warlord's bloodlust in there and you get HP sustain off the critical hits on champions as well as an attack speed steroid on top of everything else.

It left AD champions feeling great, but then anyone who played AP champions was sitting there like, "Okay great that you guys are better off, you did need it, but how the fuck am I supposed to compete with all those free stats?"

It's why the CDR problem is so huge, the only time AP champs deal any damage at all is while abilities are up, when they're down AP champs are like like a tank with no tank stats. When a tank's abilities are down there's still a purpose, when an AP's abilities are down you just sit around with your dick in your hand hoping to not get targeted and obliterated, since you're as squishy, if not more so than ADCs.

BaunjoDec 9, 20151 votes

You are using one champion as an example, and hypotheticals assuming he just starts off the game full build. How does an AP champions stack up to something like that with full build?

Ill just go ahead and answer that for you. JUST FINE, if not even better

SerevasDec 9, 20151 votes

Last I checked two items wasn't full build, just saying, 2 items of the typical AD champions outweigh the first 2 items of an AP champion easily, and if your games are going long enough to get full build there's another problem. Most games end before 30 minutes now, and when people are typically on 3 items and boots at the most unless they snowballed super hard.

End game build the only AD champion that's not outscaled by AP champions is the ADC, and again that's due to the fact that they build similarly, meaning full offense, and have their damage applied to their auto attacks in addition to their abilities which are sitting at a 40% CD off two items, while still getting their boots of choice.

AD itemization is just better at this point in time than AP itemization is. You have to give stuff up on AP champions to hit the CDR cap where AD champs sacrifice nothing to reach it, in fact it's practically done for free as you'd build the items anyway. Essence reaver is core on almost every ADC in the game, and anything that builds critical strike for that matter. You freely hit the CDR cap just by building what you normally would.

Lucian item 3508 item 3087 item 3031 Graves Same deal MissFortune Same thing

For any AP champion it's item 3174 item 3158 and blue buff that you're not always going to get. Only alternations are item 3092 and adding runes, which takes away from other options. So you do have to sacrifice other things in order to get to to the CDR cap, which is the only way you're useful in a team fight that lasts more than 5 seconds, and most do with so many tanks around.

BaunjoDec 9, 20151 votes

2 items gives him full 45% CDR?

ThePartyLeaderDec 7, 20153 votes

The grass is always greener.

Shac NorrisDec 7, 20152 votes

As an ap mage, i don't want to build boots of lucidity EVERY GAME.

And by the way, Zed get's 45% cdr with 3 powerful ad items, talk about an assassin who do an obscene amount of damage!!

BaunjoDec 7, 20151 votes

Yeah and when Zed's W and R are on cooldown, he has a very very big problem with being useful. Mages can be very very useful no matter what, if they position smart and play patiently they can easily unload spell rotation after spell rotation. Zed is a fucking melee champion.

Shac NorrisDec 8, 20152 votes

Solution: don't get caught and die like an idiot while your shit is on cooldown.

And wtf are you even talking about, every single champion has 4 abilities with COOLDOWN on every single of them, and this might surprise you, but when i say ''every single of them'' i mean AD MELEE ASSASSINS TOO! WoW! This must be a big revelation for you, since it seems like you're not intelligent enough to understand that.

BaunjoDec 8, 20151 votes

You just took your lead and ran with it without bothering to consider this is a discussion. Telling someone they are stupid and that is why they are wrong is completely pathetic.

Now, what you just said is exactly what makes CDR on zed important. His cooldowns are so long that without he cannot do anything if the enemy team is smart. The game becomes practically 4v5 unless his W or R is up. A single Q does hardly any damage whatsoever, especially if you cannot hit the champion you are actually supposed to be going for.

What I am getting at is most AP champions do not lose 75% of their kill potential in a teamfight because 1 of 2 abilities are on cooldown, especially because cooldowns are already so low.

AbyssphereDec 8, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You just took your lead and ran with it without bothering to consider this is a discussion. Telling someone they are stupid and that is why they are wrong is completely pathetic.

Now, what you just said is exactly what makes CDR on zed important. His cooldowns are so long that without he cannot do anything if the enemy team is smart. The game becomes practically 4v5 unless his W or R is up. A single Q does hardly any damage whatsoever, especially if you cannot hit the champion you are actually supposed to be going for.

What I am getting at is most AP champions do not lose 75% of their kill potential in a teamfight because 1 of 2 abilities are on cooldown, especially because cooldowns are already so low.

What you're getting at is "I play Zed so realise he has weaknesses - I don't play mages so assume they have none".

You know who loses 75% of their kill potential when 1 or 2 abilities are on cooldown? Every mage with a burst combo. But apparently that's not a problem for them.

BaunjoDec 8, 20151 votes

Are you serious? When did I ever mention anything about never playing mages? During season 4 I played nothing but mid, before I bought zed, for a good 500 or so games straight. I am perfectly aware that other mid's lose damage potential. But it does not keep them from fighting whatsoever until their abilities are off cooldown. Take a minute and think about how low of cooldowns most mid lane mages have on key damage abilities, since you clearly know so much more than me about AP mages. It's not like I started playing this game 5 years ago or anything.

Sona PingDec 7, 20151 votes

"insanely high [] damage, wave clear, and more than often a very very prominent disable or CC" Traits not limited to AP scaling champions.

"do they really need to reach 45% CDR?" Considering that Riot specifically made 45% a route to go for....

"The amount of viable magic resist items for a tank to build is very limited" Also, what is limited in this manner is the up-time for a mage's damage potential. Conversely, there is no armor item that nullifies a third of an AD's damage.

{quoted}

The grass is always greener.

BaunjoDec 7, 20151 votes

Obviously these traits are not limited to an AP mage. But no other class is able to do those 3 things while staying as safe as an AP mage can, or without sacrificing something else for this. Sure an ADC has insanely high damage and wave clear, but if they have a very strong disable or CC it is very conditional. AND ADC's are way easier to kill than an AP mid.

Riot made it possible so why didn't they make it easy for me? Well, Riot has sat and made it impossible for strong item builds to be played for another role than intended, has Riot ever said anything about how important it is to them that AP mids reach 45% CDR?

A third of a mages damage potential? Where the hell are you getting that from?

Sona PingDec 7, 20151 votes

What game are mages "safe"? But anyway: damage regularity, damage reliability, having to itemize to continue to do anything, cooldowns on reliant features, immobility, heavy resource cost... there's plenty. "but if they have a very strong disable or CC it is very conditional." Just like all mages who aren't AP Taric! I can tell you from the ADC side of things, they are not easier to take down than a mage.

And the issue that people are raising is not that it "isn't easy" on build paths, it's that there aren't any build paths! There are hardly any buildpaths for mages normally, much less ones that have CDR. It's that there are many champions and build like ADC who have easier access to CDR but don't even need their abilities. Outside of the two mana items, that mages are already stuck building, there are no CDR options that work outside of a few picks.

BaunjoDec 7, 20151 votes

Think about how that role is set up! Lets take some popular mid laners right now that are AP Ahri Leblanc Veigar Ziggs Viktor Annie Fizz Malzahar

Champions that have poor mobility more than make up with it by either AoE nukes or impossible to ignore CC. Some of them have both.

Sona PingDec 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Think about how that role is set up! Lets take some popular mid laners right now that are AP

Champions that have poor mobility more than make up with it by either AoE nukes or impossible to ignore CC. Some of them have both.

Alright, let's take a look at them then!

Ahri Leblanc Veigar Ziggs Viktor Annie Fizz Malzahar

What you should be seeing, (since we are talking about itemization, right?), is them and their CDR options. Now we ask: "After building the "required-to-have-in-order-to-do-what-you-are-supposed-to-do-in-first-place" mage mana regen item, which of these champions can effectively build the other CDR options?" The answer: None of them. Lich Bane has CDR now, so you could maybe build it on Viktor and Fizz. But Fizz doesn't even build those mage items so he ends up with even less CDR than the others.

Fizz isn't even a damn mage and he doesn't need CDR anyways. The fact that you even brought him up when talking about "poor mobility" makes me wonder about you.....

BaunjoDec 8, 20151 votes

You definitely do not need to have a mana regen item for your first item on almost any AP mid.

And if you noticed I said " some have both " of which fizz falls under the category of all of these things.

AbyssphereDec 8, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You definitely do not need to have a mana regen item for your first item on almost any AP mid.

And if you noticed I said " some have both " of which fizz falls under the category of all of these things.

What makes you think you know anything about mage itemisation when you exclusively play AD assassins, AD bruisers and ranged/melee ADCs?

You -only- play champions who have not got a reliance on mana. You do not have first hand experience of how much mana regen a mage needs, nor when they need it. You also do not have game knowledge to fall back on because you are Silver 4. Nothing is giving you the ability to tell people who actually play mages what to build and when they need to build it.

BaunjoDec 9, 20151 votes

That was the most ignorant reply I think I have ever heard.

Sorry, but I have played more games than the 20 or so of my games you looked at. In fact I have played this game since Pre season 3.
You're right because no champions could possibly require you to keep track of cooldowns and your resource bar. Sorry that Riven doesn't have a resource bar and Zed and Lee sin have energy, but that happens to be 3 of the 130 champions in this game. Of which I own all of them.
Sorry you are wrong because you are silver 4? That's fucking stupid xD sorry I do not play that often anymore, nor have I EVER taken ranked very seriously

On the topic of mana regen, I am a jungle main. I have always hated the idea of " Mid gets blue buff, " but when one of my friends adopted that mentality I took it upon myself to play every single champion he claimed had really bad mana issues. Those champions included:

Ahri Annie Leblanc Ziggs Lux To name a few. I had him play a different lane and made him watch me play those lanes with absolutely no complaints and REFUSED a blue buff. In fact, I insisted on not building any mana regen items for my first item.

There is no woe is me because you run out of mana, if you manage to run out of mana to the point where you cannot function and you have not successfully zoned or killed your enemy laner, that is YOUR fault.

BaunjoDec 9, 20151 votes

Oh and btw, if my silver 4 is such a big reason for me having no credibility, why are you unranked?

Sona PingDec 9, 20151 votes

{quoted} There is no woe is me because you run out of mana, if you manage to run out of mana to the point where you cannot function and you have not successfully zoned or killed your enemy laner, that is YOUR fault.

*Ah-hem....

[{quoted}](name=Shac Norris,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OEUKk2G0,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2015-12-08T04:18:23.684+0000)

Solution: don't get caught and die like an idiot while your shit is on cooldown.

{quoted}

You just took your lead and ran with it without bothering to consider this is a discussion. Telling someone they are stupid and that is why they are wrong is completely pathetic.

Now, what you just said is exactly what makes CDR on zed important. His cooldowns are so long.....

BaunjoDec 9, 20151 votes

What is your point? That was the exact same statement.

Proxima SolarisDec 7, 20151 votes

I should point out that they buffed both Spirit Visage and Banshee's Veil to have 70MR now, but I do know where you're coming from. The issue at the moment is more that most of the CDR items that AP mages are going to build are linked to mana regen baring Nashors and WOTA. Adding it to Lich Bane was nice and that makes the item more enticing now, but otherwise, the CDR items all feel the same and very stale because of it.

Subject 5Dec 8, 20151 votes

For me at least.

There is close to no itemization choices. Most of my builds end up looking like

item 3031 item 3006 ATTACK SPEED ITEM DEPENDING ON CHAMPION item 3035

I use to stack 2 phantoms because of the passive but it is just so meh now. All of the stats are so darn close that the only choice is the new item that gives increased range. Which is used for basically everybody, even Twisted fate. And Tristana. And Vayne for the reset.

. . .

And no that is not my Draven build.

BaunjoDec 8, 20151 votes

I want to believe you are kidding but I honestly have no idea what to believe anymore...