Sona's pattern lacks significant counterplay

A Wild AP Sona·Jan 15, 2015·30 votes·5,698 views

meanwhile leona can all in and get her adc 3 kills in 3 minutes in diamond elo while running 0-0-0 masteries if she runs 30 armor runes.......... 0 nerfs

82 Comments

Pika310Jan 15, 201522 votes

Don't worry, Riot is certain to nerf Sona again next patch. You know, to compensate for DFG being removed.

Probably nerfs every patch from here on out. Apparently just existing is enough for Riot to hate her, as ethereal as that existence has already become...

#BetterNerfSona

TheKingDodoJan 15, 201513 votes

Wow sona killed 3-0 caitlyn @ 3min. #BetterNerfSona

A Wild AP SonaJan 15, 201510 votes

bump

phatcat09Jan 15, 20159 votes

The biggest problem with leona to me seems to be how big her pulls hit box is. like ffs did anyone else see how far away ashe was? talk about reliability.

Demonsolder21Jan 15, 20155 votes

#BetterNerfSona

It Is I EmotoJan 15, 20159 votes

Sona is the most vurnable support with absurdly high mana costs, low mana pool, low health base, and dumb scalings? Better nerf Sona guys!

Solidair3Jan 15, 20158 votes

Leona is Sona's counter. The whole point of the nerfs is that she's too hard to deal with UNLESS you're playing her hard counters.

Pika310Jan 15, 20159 votes

Except she was NEVER hard to deal with all of season 4. How does that justify 21 nerfs?

Demonsolder21Jan 15, 20153 votes

This.

A Wild AP SonaJan 15, 201515 votes

{quoted}

Leona is Sona's counter. The whole point of the nerfs is that she's too hard to deal with UNLESS you're playing her hard counters.

you could do the same thing with taric or any other champion with a cc she is a walking 300 gold pinata if you run flash/ignite and you force a fight before she buys sightstone

EVEN IF SHE BUYS SIGHTSTONE she has to burn almost 400 mana to heal from 120 hp that is fucking horseshit considering sona only has 373 mana at level 2

are you fucking scared of sonas poke? then all it takes is one solid trade and she burns her entire mana bar trying to heal and has nothing left to poke with

{quoted}

The biggest problem with leona to me seems to be how big her pulls hit box is. like ffs did anyone else see how far away ashe was? talk about reliability.

you know what would help with that? sona nerfs I hear 30 nerfs isnt enough to bring her 0% win rate in lcs in line

DiostukosJan 15, 201516 votes

{quoted}

Leona is Sona's counter. The whole point of the nerfs is that she's too hard to deal with UNLESS you're playing her hard counters.

So then Leona should be nerfed because she's too hard to deal with if you're not playing Janna or Morgana.

Sounds dumb, right?

2 much sauuuceJan 15, 20158 votes

What's funny is so many people in this post are commenting about how horrible this Sona is...

...yet this is at DIAMOND elo.

Apparently Diamond elo is bigger trash than bronze. I didn't realize...

A Wild AP SonaJan 15, 20156 votes

{quoted}

What's funny is so many people in this post are commenting about how horrible this Sona is...

...yet this is at DIAMOND elo.

Apparently Diamond elo is bigger trash than bronze. I didn't realize...

yeah that sona was d4 btw not challenger or anything but players definitely know how to play their champions by then (most of the time) they have over 100 games with sona as well

2 much sauuuceJan 15, 20157 votes

Well I'm not diamond, but I am a support main, and the ONE time I played Sona in ranked last season I was completely and utterly taken advantage of in the worst possible way. (translation, I was R@ped)

To illustrate the point better, Sona is my absolute favorite champion. Period. But there is literally ZERO reason to play her now. I was mostly playing Morgana, Lux and Leona in the support position instead. Sona is a liability at this point to your team unless you are just playing unranked for fun. I don't even bother trying to touch her.

Champion SkinJan 15, 20155 votes

The biggest reasons to play Sona is for her heal and her poke but those things are fully reliant on her numbers (base damage/heal and the ratio not that you can often afford to build much AP on Sona unless you are really good and careful) So if Sona's numbers on her heal/poke is too low which I feel like it is now it makes her rather useless after all if all you are playing her for is her ult and speed boost why not play someone else like Janna or Nami which both have CC which are not their ults (Well Sona has a slow... it is something I guess)

While CC is always good and will make you useful even if you have low numbers (on everything else)

Miku Hime samaApr 28, 20152 votes

So if Sona's numbers on her heal/poke is too low which I feel like it is now it makes her rather useless after all if all you are playing her for is her ult and speed boost why not play someone else like Janna or Nami which both have CC which are not their ults (Well Sona has a slow... it is something I guess)

Indeed they are too low right now. Just how low are they? Well... :

Hymn of Valor is tied for the lowest base of a damage spell amongst the entire support class
Aria is the weakest heal in the entire game coupled with the most intense mana cost
Sona has the lowest base AD amongst supports, with exceptions to Thresh and Lulu
Aria is the weakest and shortest-duration shield of all supports

It's no wonder why her damage dealing/mitigation are nearly nonexistent.

Champion SkinApr 28, 20151 votes

Well to be fair Sona has that shield on the heal so it is a 2 in 1... however it's really short duration + the short range usually means it isn't very effective so yeah that bonus really isn't worth much and the consistent armor/mr was much more useful and valuable

Miku Hime samaMay 5, 20152 votes

Indeed, more range and duration are pretty much all the shield would probably need to be fixed. At the very least, it would actually become noticeable enough to determine whether it needs a slight number buff. This current variation doesn't even allot us that much.

On the other hand, if they brought back the aura, at least partially in addition to those two changes on the shield, that half of this one skill would finally be fixed. Then we could move on to the other parts of her kit that don't work anymore... namely everything.

Champion SkinMay 6, 20152 votes

The thing with the new "auras" are that they potentially have a much stronger effect however they have a lot shorter duration and range and need AP to reach full effect since they scale and as thus have a lower base This makes Sona much more AP reliant... however building AP on Sona can be risky as she has rather short ranges and it would make her very squishy and vulnerable (and of course it also makes things like Mikaels, Locket and other such supportive items less ideal on her though of course they are still strong and good)

While the old Aura's were flat and was just as good if you went full AP or a more utility focused build or something like that

Miku Hime samaMay 10, 20153 votes

No, the math proves the old auras were stronger even after the "potential" of her current not-auras at the maximum. Hymn for example with an entire cast grants as much damage as her old aura put out in only a single second. Aria's shield reduces incoming damage by a fraction of the old armor/MR and Celerity is just blatant trash without the aura. Then, the AP scalings she has on these abilities are so minuscule, to make up the defecit these nerfs imposed on her it requires at least a few hundred AP for Celerity, up to impossibly more than 1k AP in some situations for Hymn.

Fact of the matter is, she's just been made blatantly unusable. The excuses hold no weight and Riot is just proving they have a deep-seated hatred for her.

Pika310Jun 30, 20152 votes

Except, every heal in the game, save Soraka's is a 2 in 1 effect.

Nidalee: Attack Speed Bard/Kayle/Nami: Movement Speed Alistar/Taric: Triggers Passive

Fact of the matter is there's NOTHING special about Sona's heal. It's the weakest and most expensive in the game. Worse, we can actually look at her shield as a weakness, not a benefit. Its non-existent point value and duration makes it inferior to every other heals' bonus effects.

Sona's heal is so weak, it's mathematically less than 1% as strong as pre-patch 4.13

Poptart EvelynnJan 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

What's funny is so many people in this post are commenting about how horrible this Sona is...

...yet this is at DIAMOND elo.

Apparently Diamond elo is bigger trash than bronze. I didn't realize...

Some people only play 1-2 roles and once in a blue moon fill then suck at that role. This is an example of that. I can't believe everyone believes this sona didn't play badly.

2 much sauuuceJan 15, 20158 votes

So you failed to read the part where this player has over a 100 games with Sona in ranked??? In diamond. That's higher than your platinum rank. Your point is invalid (according to boards logic)

I didn't realize a perfect engage on yourself = playing badly. It's not so much the Sona was bad (wasn't good either, just average) as it was more the Leona knows Sona sucks and had to beat that ass.

No one wants to admit that Sona is weak as hell and has NO lane pressure at all. Other supports heal better, other supports poke better, other supports support better. I still enjoy playing Sona but she is a troll pick at best, even if you have hundreds of games as her under your belt. She is outclassed by EVERY other support out there.

Poptart EvelynnJan 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

So you failed to read the part where this player has over a 100 games with Sona in ranked??? In diamond. That's higher than your platinum rank. Your point is invalid (according to boards logic)

I didn't realize a perfect engage on yourself = playing badly. It's not so much the Sona was bad (wasn't good either, just average) as it was more the Leona knows Sona sucks and had to beat that ass.

No one wants to admit that Sona is weak as hell and has NO lane pressure at all. Other supports heal better, other supports poke better, other supports support better. I still enjoy playing Sona but she is a troll pick at best, even if you have hundreds of games as her under your belt. She is outclassed by EVERY other support out there.

Sona is weak early, therefore you play around that. Sona did not position correctly. I was d1 most of last season in plat atm because of decay and the fact I quit for 6 months then I was playing poorly on return.

From the Sona's view, she didn't position well, and failed to react in time to the Leona? Looked like Sona wasn't even looking at first then saw it too late. She clearly made a mistake and the Leona took advantage of this correct? Could she have played that better and prevented that death? Yes.

Don't talk about rankings btw unless you know what your talking about mate because it's obvious if you guys don't see the mistake Sona made. If the op is completely disregarding this then I'm not sure what the point of this post is. Anyone with some proper critical thinking can see the Sona made a mistakes. Diamonds aren't gods. We make mistakes all the time.

She has roughly a 52-53% win rate currently. This thread is meaningless if people just want to be biased and ignore what happened in that fight.

A Wild AP SonaJan 15, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nya Poptart Cat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OE5Ew9HQ,comment-id=000f000100000000,timestamp=2015-01-15T11:29:27.860+0000)

Sona is weak early, therefore you play around that. Sona did not position correctly. I was d1 most of last season in plat atm because of decay and the fact I quit for 6 months then I was playing poorly on return.

From the Sona's view, she didn't position well, and failed to react in time to the Leona? Looked like Sona wasn't even looking at first then saw it too late. She clearly made a mistake and the Leona took advantage of this correct? Could she have played that better and prevented that death? Yes.

Don't talk about rankings btw unless you know what your talking about mate because it's obvious if you guys don't see the mistake Sona made. If the op is completely disregarding this then I'm not sure what the point of this post is. Anyone with some proper critical thinking can see the Sona made a mistakes. Diamonds aren't gods. We make mistakes all the time.

She has roughly a 52-53% win rate currently. This thread is meaningless if people just want to be biased and ignore what happened in that fight.

you could run support lucian with ignite and do the same thing at level 2-4 honestly what part of sona dies instantly before ruby crystal dont you understand?

by your arguement sona is hugging the turret the entire game and you have no chance to kill her but somehow she is oppressive by sitting back and doing no damage? how?

and if sona goes back and buys a + hp item how does that make her poke stronger? it doesnt

the point of the video was to show that sona is garbage and a free lane if you have any sort of knowledge of the champion she is the least oppressive champion on league

honestly I am more afraid of the poke of a support katarina/velkoz/xerath their attacks hit harder than a 40 hp q and they dont need to come within 550 range to do any damage

2 much sauuuceJan 16, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nya Poptart Cat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OE5Ew9HQ,comment-id=000f000100000000,timestamp=2015-01-15T11:29:27.860+0000)

Sona is weak early, therefore you play around that. Sona did not position correctly. I was d1 most of last season in plat atm because of decay and the fact I quit for 6 months then I was playing poorly on return.

From the Sona's view, she didn't position well, and failed to react in time to the Leona? Looked like Sona wasn't even looking at first then saw it too late. She clearly made a mistake and the Leona took advantage of this correct? Could she have played that better and prevented that death? Yes.

Don't talk about rankings btw unless you know what your talking about mate because it's obvious if you guys don't see the mistake Sona made. If the op is completely disregarding this then I'm not sure what the point of this post is. Anyone with some proper critical thinking can see the Sona made a mistakes. Diamonds aren't gods. We make mistakes all the time.

She has roughly a 52-53% win rate currently. This thread is meaningless if people just want to be biased and ignore what happened in that fight.

Funny but in Master's her win rate has fluctuated from 39% (horrible) to 60% (godlike) so, obviously, this shows a swing. And also, those numbers mean nothing standing alone. She has one of the LOWEST win rates and pick rates out of the ENTIRE support and "support" pool.

P.s. He highest winrate percentage average currently is in Bronze. The higher up the rankings you go, the lower her winrate average gets. Ironic yes?

And yes, Sona in that video made a mistake and Leona showed her whats up for making it. Although it wasn't a super duper mistake. Most Leona's don't take E till level 3, taking the Q for the stun at Level 1 to protect the carry. So can't blame that player for thinking Leona didn't have her dash yet. It would be like a player against Blitzcrank. He's level 1, he can't catch me, he obviously took Q first. WHY IS HE RUNNING SO FAST???

Stuff like that happens ya know. I wouldn't expect a Leona to take E first either. shrugs

Pika310Jan 17, 20151 votes

While I don't disagree, I have been seeing more Leonas take E at level 1 in recent days. At this point, I have to expect this unless I actually see her use Q.

2 much sauuuceJan 20, 20151 votes

It's cuz more and more people like to go full ham I suppose. I will now be on the lookout for Ham Samich Leona's now...

Beats29Jan 15, 20157 votes

What bothers me the most is that they are nerfing Sona while they are buffing Annie again... Remember the begining of S4?... Not that I dislike Annie, but if they continue to nerf traditional supps while buffing Annie that problem will rise again.

RoyaiChaosJan 15, 20152 votes

Wait, when was Annie buffed?

Beats29Jan 17, 20151 votes

It wasn't, they simply said they are thinkign for Annie buffs since DFG will be removed.

RoyaiChaosJan 17, 20151 votes

Well if she's getting nerfed there's no reason for her to be not buffed...

Beats29Jan 18, 20151 votes

Why not? While I don't play Annie DFG is a very good item for mid Annie.

Jungle Lux GodJan 15, 20157 votes

"For a champion that has her fair share of counters (ex. Leona, Blitzcrank, vocal chords), Sona's pattern lacks significant counterplay when these champs aren't present, leaving her laning phase pretty oppressive"

Now show me a situation where Sona doesn't get counterpicked and get obliterated.

*Disclaimer: I do not support nerfs to Sona, especially on patch 5.1.

Sightless66Jan 15, 20151 votes

Well, this kind of raises the question. If she gets countered really, really hard by certain things, and has good power against other stuff, why isn't the reduction of her strengths being balanced out by minimizing her weaknesses? Personally, that's my problem with this.

Miku Hime samaApr 28, 20152 votes

It's right there in what Riot said, just use some insight to read between the lines. Riot is glad that she's hard-countered by certain champs(despite the fact they don't want hard-counters to exist), but they don't want her to do well against champs that don't "counter" her either. Essentially they're admitting they want Sona to be the weakest champ in the game and have only unfavorable match-ups, no favorable ones.

A Wild AP SonaJan 15, 20156 votes

bump for bullshit awareness

MetaphoraJan 15, 20155 votes

Oh yes because a sona standing still and eating a root level one vs cait leona really shows how hard the champion has been nerfed

literally half the supports would die if they did something like that and played it that badly

You just sound salty as fuck

deviled66Jan 15, 201511 votes

{quoted}

Oh yes because a sona standing still and eating a root level one vs cait leona really shows how hard the champion has been nerfed

its impossible to lose lane to sona as Leona if you all in with grab at elvel 1 with ignite

even if she lives she will go oom trying to heal with her 30 hp 80 mana heal

it will require almost 400 mana just to heal 120 hp

A Wild AP SonaJan 15, 201510 votes

{quoted}

Oh yes because a sona standing still and eating a root level one vs cait leona really shows how hard the champion has been nerfed

literally half the supports would die if they did something like that and played it that badly

You just sound salty as fuck

there is 0 counterplay to a smart thresh/leona/blitz planning an all in level 1 engage on sona she is more squishy than a fucking melee minion

MetaphoraJan 15, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Wild AP Sona,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OE5Ew9HQ,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2015-01-15T01:07:13.584+0000)

there is 0 counterplay to a smart thresh/leona/blitz planning an all in level 1 engage on sona she is more squishy than a fucking melee minion

I guess the whole "move to avoid skillshots" level one plan is just completely impossible to do

A Wild AP SonaJan 15, 20156 votes

{quoted}

I guess the whole "move to avoid skillshots" level one plan is just completely impossible to do

I would flash on her if needbe because I already know she will die if my combo connects with a decent adc 1 lucian double shot or graves combo and she is gone if you grab/ignite her

the entire point is not to play like a timid pussy and let her poke you down if you understand how stupidly and laughably weak she really is at level 1-level 4 before sightstone

ofartJan 15, 20154 votes

I don't see how playing poorly is relevant to balance.

A Wild AP SonaJan 15, 201516 votes

{quoted}

So a guy doesn't know how to build Sona or time flashes correctly and has an ADC with a weak early game vs one with a great one. He's also apparently not aware of Leona'a strong early level engages. This is relevant to balance how?

like I said it wouldnt matter I would flash

the only way sona is safe level 1-4 vs a player without down syndrome is if she doesnt go into lane at all and afks at nexus this "sona lane dominance" is a figment of bronzies imagination sona will -never- be in control of the lane if you play with your balls dropped instead of like a prepubescent child

you know what counters sona? right clicking on her

NinjaToad99Jan 15, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Wild AP Sona,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OE5Ew9HQ,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2015-01-15T01:57:52.299+0000) you know what counters sona? right clicking on her

I'm dying from laughter.

Send help.

2 much sauuuceJan 15, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Wild AP Sona,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OE5Ew9HQ,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2015-01-15T01:57:52.299+0000) you know what counters sona? right clicking on her

Quoted for truth. She's only good in ARAM's now... and they just nerfed that as well...

It Is I EmotoJan 15, 20154 votes

Seriously though, I only feel useful if I run 30/0/0 masteries, and ad/ap runes to have at least a great early game, mid game, and late game. It's like, Sona is forced to build all that ap because her e and w are crap right now, she's extremly slow too, has no crowdcontrol and more. Thank you fearless, for creating the most horrible rework that exists right now (◕‿◕✿)

SalzigorimandoJan 15, 20152 votes

Cassiopeia rework is still living, so your final point is false, but I agree they need to decide if sona's allowed to have numbers or utility, because apparently even the hint of her having both is a nerf-sentence.

jv21blU7oDJan 15, 20152 votes

I don't really have anything to add to the discussion but I just wanted to say that I love the pic you're using on your youtube and twitch channels and I hope I can catch your stream sometime soon.

A Wild AP SonaJan 15, 20156 votes

{quoted}

I don't really have anything to add to the discussion but I just wanted to say that I love the pic you're using on your youtube and twitch channels and I hope I can catch your stream sometime soon.

I have not streamed for days due to having 0 motivation and energy after seeing my favorite champion brutally tortured to death

I will start streaming regularly for the start of s5 though ATM I am too busy theory crafting