QQ thread of Fizz. Why is he never nerfed???

BeatzBoyFTW·Jan 12, 2015·27 votes·3,158 views

Patch 4.4

W- Active AP ratio increased to 25% from 15%.

Patch 4.5

Base armor increased to 16.7 from 12.7.

Seriously, why is Fizz the only Assassin champ (besides Zed) who is highly favoured by Riot? How are they so oblivious to the fact Fizz is considered OP by many?? I seriously hate going against this champion, especially his "magical" E jumping shiet. Invulnerability & dodging skillshots, I can forgive. But to give such a fking high 75-270 AP base damage, plus 75% AP? Is this even necessary? Does all assassin champs HAS to start with a "At level 1, Fizz can deal 10000 true damage that "only Koreans" can master." Rito, I'm sorry, I think it's about to take your meds.

Or not, I need to hear from a Red, give me 5 reasons why you guys think Fizz is considered "balanced"?

90 Comments

Long Dong WukongJan 12, 201529 votes

His passive lets him avoid collision with nerfs

N3mO06Jan 12, 201516 votes

Fizz's e can dodge also nerf.....

Jungle Lux GodJan 12, 201510 votes

I'm not trying to justify Fizz's balance, but the W ratio buff was compensation to the nerf of Lich Bane, which Fizz and others like Twisted Fate and AP Ezreal used a lot and got compensation buffs for, while the armor buff was to compensate for the armor seal nerf, which everyone got, so Fizz didn't get buffed there relative to everyone else.

A Wild AP SonaJan 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'm not trying to justify Fizz's balance, but the W ratio buff was compensation to the nerf of Lich Bane, which Fizz and others like Twisted Fate and AP Ezreal used a lot and got compensation buffs for, while the armor buff was to compensate for the armor seal nerf, which everyone got, so Fizz didn't get buffed there relative to everyone else.

lol @ no compensation for lich bane nerfs when its core on sona

of course riot is fucktards so no surprise

Jungle Lux GodJan 13, 20151 votes

Lich Bane was not core on Sona in the same way it was core on TF and Fizz. TF and Fizz were nerfed because the item made them so strong, while Sona was very much viable even if she didn't get Lich Bane.

A Wild AP SonaJan 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Lich Bane was not core on Sona in the same way it was core on TF and Fizz. TF and Fizz were nerfed because the item made them so strong, while Sona was very much viable even if she didn't get Lich Bane.

every sona that isnt garbage gets lich bane they just didnt give her compensation buffs because they are bigot cunts that hate mutes if riot actually cared about balancing the game they would have nerfed fizz instead they continue to harass sona players with these unjustifed nerfs of a champion with 0% win/pick rate in competitive play that dies in 1-2 hits

Jungle Lux GodJan 14, 20151 votes

I can't justify the nerfs that came to Sona in 4.21 or the nerfs that were coming in 5.1, but saying Sona is garbage if she doesn't get Lich Bane I feel is a little bit ridiculous. Every Sona that isn't garbage gets a gold gen item and a sightstone, but they don't have to get a Lich Bane, especially if they don't have to be a damage source.

Kuroi86Jan 12, 20158 votes

As toxic as Fizz is, he's not actually overpowered. He doesn't deal too much damage. His untargetability is just unfun to play against. He's toxic, not op.

InsaneSamuraiJan 12, 20151 votes

90% of the games I've played with a Fizz in them wanna have a talk with ya :P Hell, I don't even play Fizz and I can destroy with him.

Kuroi86Jan 13, 20151 votes

And? It only takes one or two kills to snowball with an assassin, despite Riots efforts so curb snowballing. It literally only takes two mistakes for Fizz to get fed, heck this goes for nearly any champ. Fizz is just annoying and toxic due to his troll pole giving him unnecessary safety.

JJI744Jan 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

As toxic as Fizz is, he's not actually overpowered. He doesn't deal too much damage. His untargetability is just unfun to play against. He's toxic, not op.

Literally just watched on GBay's stream. GBay, as Fizz with DFG+Lichbane 100-0 the opposing midlaner with a DFG>Q. He used his E assuming he would need to land at least 1 (AoE) skillshot to 100-0 his target, but Jayce died to the bleed in the half a second before Fizz landed.

Doesn't do damage, right. Miss ult and your E, still 100-0 the target.

Jungle Lux GodJan 13, 20151 votes

Well that's a problem with DFG. Almost every AP can instagib targets with DFG active, so saying Fizz can do it is stating the obvious.

JJI744Jan 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Well that's a problem with DFG. Almost every AP can instagib targets with DFG active, so saying Fizz can do it is stating the obvious.

Doesn't hurt that Fizz Triple-dips from the active. Nor does it change that Fizz does plenty of damage.

EDIT: Aaaaand now I want to test DFG on Elise, she has that same %missing HP that gets extra bonus from DFG.

TourianJan 13, 20151 votes

I've been meaning to build DFG on her for quite a while but there are always more pressing items >.> I hear its super scary though.

Kuroi86Jan 13, 20151 votes

I'm guessing he was already fed by this time. A fed assassin can typically 100-0 a squishy, this is nothing new. This is part of being an assassin. This is what so many people miss. Saying an assassin is overpowered because they were ahead is like saying they are overpowered because they deal damage.

JJI744Jan 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'm guessing he was already fed by this time. A fed assassin can typically 100-0 a squishy, this is nothing new. This is part of being an assassin. This is what so many people miss. Saying an assassin is overpowered because they were ahead is like saying they are overpowered because they deal damage.

Actually, he was feeding at this point. (Was GBay's first time Fizz, from what I gathered, I missed the start of the match) I think he was 2/6 to be specific.

LlaniteJan 12, 20156 votes

Because he's balance? Seems like Riot's with me on this.

If you think logically, he can dodge one of your spell using one of his. Three scenarios:

He fails to dodge and lose the trade.
He dodges with E, both parties lose one ability.
He dodges with E then land right on your head, thus win the trade.

If 3) consistently happens to you, L2P issue.

InsaneSamuraiJan 12, 20151 votes

If he was balanced, would he be either getting banned or carrying most of the time? And when a Fizz carries, he doesn't just carry, he explodes tanks(and gets away scott free). If he isn't exploding tanks yet, he just has to run into any lower mobility squishy(which compared to Fizz is just about everyone) and faceroll a couple times, because you can't compete with that damage, then he can go explode the tank.

LlaniteJan 13, 20152 votes

Don't quite get what you meant, there are 120 champs, someone should not be picked or banned "most of the time" and even if he does, that just means someone is really popular, nothing to do with 'balance'.

Every fed carry explodes tank, which exactly what 'carry' means. Zed does that, Kat does that, Draven, Zinx, Lucian do that. By that definition, 50% of champs are not 'balance'? That'd be some serious works to do.

Mind you, Fizz has the least teamfight potential of all assassin. A fed Katarina Akali MasterYi Yasuo Khazix will kill a squishy, get a reset, killing another, get a reset, then a penta. A fed Fizz can only do it once then have to retreat for CD.

Hilltop SunsetJan 12, 20154 votes

You forgot to post a few previous patches before the ones you mentioned where they nerfed the shit out of him and everyone completely stopped playing him. These were compensation buffs.

Stark6000Jan 12, 20154 votes

he's frustrating to play against but not OP

KonidiasJan 12, 20153 votes

I just love it when I initiate on Fizz for an all-in and he presses one button to ghost through everything, and now he's right on top of me and I just used my gap closer to get to him in the first place.

Well, time to bend over and take a fizting.

JunkοJan 12, 20154 votes

Maybe you shouldn't have all inned a Fizz that you knew had E off cooldown, well at least early game, late game that happens a bit too often

Cale017Jan 12, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rainbowe Dash,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OBJEHjw6,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-01-12T19:54:29.685+0000)

Maybe you shouldn't have all inned a Fizz that you knew had E off cooldown, well at least early game, late game that happens a bit too often

The 8 second late game cooldown and his inability to even need it with the damage on his Q and W beg to differ.

JunkοJan 12, 20154 votes

6 seconds if you buy DFG actually(and i guess 5% CDR mastery), i played Fizz like a day ago and i really did not believe Riot allowed it to be on this low CD.

Cale017Jan 12, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rainbowe Dash,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OBJEHjw6,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-12T20:02:47.976+0000)

6 seconds if you buy DFG actually(and i guess 5% CDR mastery), i played Fizz like a day ago and i really did not believe Riot allowed it to be on this low CD.

Oh yeah, no doubt. Max CDR puts it at a 4ish second cooldown. That's just insane.

JunkοJan 12, 20155 votes

To be fair you lose a ton of dmg for building 40% CDR on Fizz

KonidiasJan 13, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rainbowe Dash,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OBJEHjw6,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-01-12T19:54:29.685+0000)

Maybe you shouldn't have all inned a Fizz that you knew had E off cooldown, well at least early game, late game that happens a bit too often

The problem is when I'm playing an assassin trying to assassinate Fizz...

How am I supposed to initiate a kill when he's isolated but not using his E? He basically has free reign of the area because I can't make a move without him popping E to dodge it. I'm talking when he's laning and I am trying to gank in when none of my team is around... or if he's running through jungle alone and I spot him out. I literally cannot engage on him.

qetzelJan 13, 20152 votes

The strength of Fizz's E is that it avoids burst. If you are playing a burst champion (Mage or assassin) your only chance is to bait the E with a false engage. That is your counterplay to E on a burst champion. Not great, but it is something you can try.

Alternatively, stagger your engage. If, for example, your Jarvan jumps onto Fizz with his lance, don't go in at the same time. Wait for 0.75 seconds.

Sustained damage champions, if they build an MR item or have acceptable peel, do fairly well against Fizz. If he dodges one thing then it doesn't matter. He will slowly die anyway.

Really, you shouldn't pick most assassins into Fizz. Some do well, most don't. Counter picks are annoying, but you have to be prepared for them.

KonidiasJan 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The strength of Fizz's E is that it avoids burst. If you are playing a burst champion (Mage or assassin) your only chance is to bait the E with a false engage. That is your counterplay to E on a burst champion. Not great, but it is something you can try.

Alternatively, stagger your engage. If, for example, your Jarvan jumps onto Fizz with his lance, don't go in at the same time. Wait for 0.75 seconds.

Sustained damage champions, if they build an MR item or have acceptable peel, do fairly well against Fizz. If he dodges one thing then it doesn't matter. He will slowly die anyway.

Really, you shouldn't pick most assassins into Fizz. Some do well, most don't. Counter picks are annoying, but you have to be prepared for them.

The strength of Fizz's E is that it avoids EVERYTHING.

So the rest of your post basically restates what I said. Either I have to bait out his E and hope he uses it carelessly, or I have to get another teammate to help force it out of him. Great.

Any suggestion where it involves requiring 2 people to take down 1 person should be a clear sign that the champion is broken.

I don't get how you can say "don't pick an assassin into fizz" when Fizz is also an assassin. So he is king of assassins? Also if I'm in another lane, I can't exactly counter for Fizz and also counter for my lane. At some point I'm going to run into Fizz and I'd like for him to not be able to dodge my entire engage with one button.

qetzelJan 13, 20151 votes

To be fair, You hadn't said that in this comment chain. That is some way down.

Point 1. Fizz's E avoids ALL burst and 0.75s of sustained damage. If you are dealing sustained damage, Fizz doesn't dodge much of it at all.

Point 2. In a teamfight situation, yes, I expect you will need teamwork. In a duelling situation, some champions are better than others. You need to know what fights you can pick. You wouldn't jump on an Annie with a charged stun or a Yasuo with two stacks, so why jump on Fizz when he has E?

Point 3. Some champions do well against other champions. If every champion did equally well against every other then we would have a boring game. The reason Fizz is good against assassins and burst mages is that they deal all of their damage at once. As such, his E dodges all damage. Against a sustained damage source, the E only dodges a small percentage of the damage.

Point 4. Good against assassins does not mean king of assassins. Fizz does worse against bruisers than Zed does.

Point 5. No, you can't counter for both every time. You can't counter against A Zed and a Lissandra at the same time either. Or a Caitlynn and a Jarvan. You pick someone who works well in your overall team comp or against their overall team comp. You also don't need to counter. Just pick someone who does fairly well. A counter is not always the best choice.

Cale017Jan 12, 20153 votes

Honestly I can see why you're frustrated. If a Fizz gets ahead he's nearly unstoppable, but if he falls behind he can still be a large annoyance.

I want to say that he's balanced by simply not fighting him alone, as that's an easy way to get yourself killed, but he's so slippery that it feels like even coming at him with several people isn't going to work in most cases. You have to fire so much CC at him, staggered so it doesn't get canceled by his E, and hope that the skillshot ones aren't juked by his Q.

I don't want to say he's overpowered, but he is a pretty big issue and acting like he isn't is just plain ignorant.

InsaneSamuraiJan 12, 20151 votes

Not fighting a champ like Fizz is probably the best bet right now, but also it is a huge sign that there is something wrong here.

Cale017Jan 13, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Not fighting a champ like Fizz is probably the best bet right now, but also it is a huge sign that there is something wrong here.

I said not fighting him alone. If you try to fight any assassin alone you're just asking for trouble.

KonidiasJan 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I said not fighting him alone. If you try to fight any assassin alone you're just asking for trouble.

The problem is that even another assassin cannot fight Fizz alone... You would think if one assassin gets the jump on another, then they could get the kill... but in this case, Fizz can dodge any initiation.

Even if you can force him to use his E, the moment he comes down he's going to ult you and then turn the tables. So uhh... I guess bait out his E... then bait out and dodge his ult... then finally you can go in for a kill?

Cale017Jan 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The problem is that even another assassin cannot fight Fizz alone... You would think if one assassin gets the jump on another, then they could get the kill... but in this case, Fizz can dodge any initiation.

Even if you can force him to use his E, the moment he comes down he's going to ult you and then turn the tables. So uhh... I guess bait out his E... then bait out and dodge his ult... then finally you can go in for a kill?

Actually, a Diana or an Akali can take him without too much issue. Their combos are extremely quick. Akali can heal enough to survive his ult, and Diana can reduce enough damage to survive as well, both of them leap to him and delete him even if he E's out of it with their short cooldowns. Both also build Zhonya's usually, which allows them to survive his ult and possibly his Q if he tries to hit with them at the same time.

JunkοJan 13, 20151 votes

Actually literally every assassin shits on Fizz atm

TotalwanabeJan 12, 20153 votes

assassin are never balanced their sole purpose is to go all in with heavy burst and with some luck make it out alive. The pole dance is annoying that's what make killing fizz quite hard but with proper champ he's quite easy to deal with and the key to kill fizz is to bait the pole before going all in so he has no escape.

InsaneSamuraiJan 12, 20151 votes

So against someone who is good with Fizz and knows when not to E, then what?

JunkοJan 12, 20152 votes

Zed is heavily favored by Riot, not like he got nerfed a lot on release or anything, and then got nerfed again when Riot deleted 1/3 of his burst, and then again when they nerfed his core items. The buff he got recently was fairly small really

If you want a Riot favorite, look at Lee

Kuroi86Jan 12, 20151 votes

Lee has also seen quite a few nerfs, no less than twenty during his lifetime.

InsaneSamuraiJan 12, 20152 votes

Riot loves to fake nerf Lee.
"Hey guys we know you think Lee is too strong, so we're gonna...... umm.... Nerf his lifesteal 5%! Yeah that'll fix everything. Oh no, he's still a problem. Ok lets make the shield 10% less powerful, that'll fix everything.... No?"

xXxsharkbladexXxJan 13, 20151 votes

Well lee had some pretty big nerfs such as how his e didn't lower attack speed anymore. That pretty much made him useless late game when adc's destroy. Late game all he has is his kick.

JunkοJan 13, 20151 votes

The kick that can't be cleansed or QSS'd and 100% makes the enemy ADC die if you kick them into your team, all while applying hard cc to the enemy entire team and dealing 600 base damage + 200% his AD to the first target.

Nothing too strong or anything

InsaneSamuraiJan 14, 20151 votes

If he properly abused how much power he gains off a part of an item, then he'll still be able to blow people up late game just fine.

Kuroi86Jan 13, 20151 votes

Because Lee is too well rounded. While many champs can do any single thing he does better than him, he does it all and pretty well at that. For Riot to nerf him to the point that he's not strong in everything he does, would mean nerfing him to the point that he's gutted and nonviable which despite what a lot of people think, IS a bad thing. Riots options are to either leave him strong or push him into a niche.

FYI, there's no such thing as a fake nerf, a nerf is a nerf so quit acting like he's as strong as he was on release, he's not nearly that good anymore.

JunkοJan 13, 20151 votes

I agree, the 2 hp reg nerf was huge and totally made Lee unviable sarcasm

Also Lee Sin was apparently so bad he got HUGE BUFFS on release

Kuroi86Jan 14, 20151 votes

And since then he's been so great that people haven't said a thing about him until this last season...

InsaneSamuraiJan 14, 20151 votes

He's not well rounded if he rushes a longsword and can go instantly 1v1 anyone in the game. On the off chance that someone else shows up, he's gone over a wall or 3 cause he's Lee. That doesn't sound balanced to me.

Kuroi86Jan 14, 20151 votes

Oh hey, a bruiser is a strong early game duelist, this is new. sarcasm

I still say they need to push him into a niche, make his strengths more situational.

At the very least, reduce his sustain against champs and reduce his damage against minions and monsters.