On Thunderlord's Decree

DevilishMetal·Dec 26, 2015·1 votes·1,077 views

Let me start by saying- please read the whole thing before you comment. Thanks :)

Anyway, I don't like Thunderlord's as it is right now. It's supposed to be the burst mastery, aka more damage because that's what burst mages WANT. More damage.

The only problem with a "more damage" mastery that's easily used is that now everyone has tons of damage and little reason to- well- NOT take decree. It boosts your laning phase, ESPECIALLY if you're a tank. Tanks like base damage and Thunderlord's provides it.

If Thunderlord's stays as it is at the moment, it will never be balanced. I think it should be balanced more around burst, like "dealing X% of an enemies max hp within X seconds does extra damage". This would prevent many tanks, marksmen, etc from using it, while champions like Veigar would still love it.

If you have any comments, tell me, because I'd love to hear what you guys have to say!

15 Comments

69469238DEL1Dec 26, 20152 votes

Bot lane is usually decided by which adc has the kit that'll set off Thunderlords the most often and fastest

DevilishMetalDec 26, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hunted Horror,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OAbdJOjE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-12-26T13:58:42.583+0000)

Bot lane is usually decided by which adc has the kit that'll set off Thunderlords the most often and fastest

And that's exactly the problem. I don't think ADC's should be taking Thunderlord's in the first place. My vision for TLD is the "I want to kill you from a relatively safe distance in about 1.5 seconds" rather than "oh look you just took damage". ADC's should be using Fervor or Warlord's for the massive DPS boost you get using them.

69469238DEL1Dec 27, 20151 votes

I agree, but it's the best Mastery right now, it is what it is. Needs a change

Maximum MordeDec 26, 20152 votes

At all stages of the game for AD champions, thunderlord is less damage than an auto attack, every twenty seconds. For AP caster champs it is less than an auto until around mid game.

A single crit from Warlord increases attacks speed which grants you the extra hits that make it outdamage TL. Warlords out damages and gives a little bonus heal.

DFT straight out damages thunderlords if you can keep it on an uptime of about 1/3 to 1/2 of the time.

Fervor of battle, even at level ten will have done 220 damage just getting it stacked, and once it's stacked does ~40 damage per hit. So, if you can even just get it stacked and not keep it, you still outdamaged thunderlord unless somehow you manage to have over 400 bonus AD at level 10. The required bonus AD for TL to win that calculation keeps rising.

We could even be completely stupid and go grasp of the undying on a ranged auto attacker and it would still outdamage thunderlord till late game.

Tell me again how it's the best thing in the world when it does less damage than an auto attack.

TLDR, maths confirm you are seeing TL because it's easy to use, other cunning masteries suck, and because cunning tree has really nice choices, not because thunderlord is stronger than other keystones

DevilishMetalDec 26, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maximum Morde,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OAbdJOjE,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-12-26T15:49:36.696+0000)

At all stages of the game for AD champions, thunderlord is less damage than an auto attack, every twenty seconds. For AP caster champs it is less than an auto until around mid game.

A single crit from Warlord increases attacks speed which grants you the extra hits that make it outdamage TL. Warlords out damages and gives a little bonus heal.

DFT straight out damages thunderlords if you can keep it on an uptime of about 1/3 to 1/2 of the time.

Fervor of battle, even at level ten will have done 220 damage just getting it stacked, and once it's stacked does ~40 damage per hit. So, if you can even just get it stacked and not keep it, you still outdamaged thunderlord unless somehow you manage to have over 400 bonus AD at level 10. The required bonus AD for TL to win that calculation keeps rising.

We could even be completely stupid and go grasp of the undying on a ranged auto attacker and it would still outdamage thunderlord till late game.

Tell me again how it's the best thing in the world when it does less damage than an auto attack.

TLDR, maths confirm you are seeing TL because it's easy to use, other cunning masteries suck, and because cunning tree has really nice choices, not because thunderlord is stronger than other keystones

Oh, no, i must have misworded. I don't think Thunderlord's is at ALL the best. I want MORE power and LESS accessibility. Like, dealing 20-30% (guessing values here) does an extra 20% of the damage dealt. So it should deal MORE damage, and you should need some sort of decent burst to utilize it.

AyRe CoNteMpTDec 26, 20151 votes

your suggestion is worthless.

its actually balanced right now and the reason everyone takes it is because its the best mastery in that tree in the cunning tree is simply the best.

also, if ou want to move it away from tanks and supports, you need to drastically remove its base damage and increase its scaling. tho i like it the way it is now.

DevilishMetalDec 26, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=AyRe CoNteMpT,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OAbdJOjE,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-12-26T14:09:03.315+0000)

your suggestion is worthless.

its actually balanced right now and the reason everyone takes it is because its the best mastery in that tree in the cunning tree is simply the best.

also, if ou want to move it away from tanks and supports, you need to drastically remove its base damage and increase its scaling. tho i like it the way it is now.

No, see, that's the logic that gets us all on the WRONG track. I will say, though, this gives me a good opportunity to prove my point. People take Thunderlord's because it's the most visibly strong mastery. The rest are harder to notice directly. Like, sure you take 6% less damage and that's awesome! But you'll never pay as much attention to it as the DAMAGE.

Even when you proposed a solution (which is a pretty good one) you didn't go to cooldowns or usage but STRAIGHT to the damage. Does that help illustrate the problem here? People will take Thunderlord's because it's an easily accessible damage tool, that ANYONE can use. The problem is the fact that as long as anyone can use Thunderlord's, it can never be as strong as it should.

AyRe CoNteMpTDec 27, 20151 votes

it shouldnt be much stronger because of the extremely high power in its tree. i dont actually like the idea of having weak mastery trees but super strong keystones. that just flat out sucks. they should make it so that at every tier of every mastery tree you have the choice of 3-4 masteries and then at the end you have 3-5 keystones.

they should also make it so that the three trees are again DAMAGE, UTILITY AND DEFENSE and not some weird mixed bullshit. like right now, only one mastery in each tree honors the trees name.

only fervor of battle is ferocious, only assassin is cunning (somewhat) and only perserverance is resilient. its fucking dumb.

if you would put thunderlords in the ferocity tree (along with assassin, merciless and precision) then you could increase its power to patch fervor of battles. you could also make it so that it has no cooldown but requires more stacks (like 4) and it can only get one stack in a row from an ability and auto attack. this means you would have to mix abilities and auto attacks to procc is. this would then be the go-to mastery for combo champions while fervor is the go-to mastery for auto attack champions and deathfire touch is the go-to for spellcasters

ThePartyLeaderDec 26, 20151 votes

Personally don't have a problem with it other than its strong. I do believe almost every other top tier keystone is buffed on the pbe so should solve the problem.

DevilishMetalDec 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Personally don't have a problem with it other than its strong. I do believe almost every other top tier keystone is buffed on the pbe so should solve the problem.

But, it's not strong. It's VISIBLE, and there's a very big difference. People like seeing the effects of their keystones, items, etc. That's why everyone thinks TLD is overpowered, why Sword of the Divine got removed, why DFG got removed, and why every other keystone feels so weak. Thunderlord's isn't the best mastery, and it's destroying the balance of Keystones.

DeloricVIJan 18, 20161 votes

Fun fact, after crunching some numbers on Veigar, After you hit a certain AP, ThunderLord's Decree does much less damage than DeathFire Touch. DFT is good for scaling into the late game. Veigar is a champion that is built for the late game. When does Veigar want to get Thunderlord's Decree again?

DevilishMetalJan 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Fun fact, after crunching some numbers on Veigar, After you hit a certain AP, ThunderLord's Decree does much less damage than DeathFire Touch. DFT is good for scaling into the late game. Veigar is a champion that is built for the late game. When does Veigar want to get Thunderlord's Decree again?

Not the point. I wanted to increase the damage Thunderlord's does and make it deal damage when you chunk an enemy for x% of their max HP.

DeloricVIJan 18, 20161 votes

But also, with Veigar specifically, getting Thunderlord's is generally not worth it. Half the time you get out traded by the time you get that proc under normal circumstances. That, or Tlord doesn't matter, because they're dead anyway. Also, Tlord doesn't do any % health damage, unless you're saying it might as well for how much damage it does.

DevilishMetalJan 19, 20161 votes

{quoted}

But also, with Veigar specifically, getting Thunderlord's is generally not worth it. Half the time you get out traded by the time you get that proc under normal circumstances. That, or Tlord doesn't matter, because they're dead anyway. Also, Tlord doesn't do any % health damage, unless you're saying it might as well for how much damage it does.

I'm suggesting they CHANGE it, so that it deals more damage, and is triggered by dealing X% of someone's max HP within X seconds.

DeloricVIJan 19, 20161 votes

But why would you do that? Everyone runs thunderlord's decree anyway. If it does % health damage, that would straight up break it, or make it horrible. If it deals too much %damage, it's so busted everyone's going to only use tlord. If it's not enough, no one's going to use it. That, or you're saying make it easier to proc with bursty champions like Viegar, which, again, doesn't solve the versatility problem in game right now. When 3-5 champions on either team will have one specific keystone mastery, you need to encourage them to pick something else and make the game more diverse, and may give them more options. Some people are starting to complain about flash, but you can have another summoner spell; you only get one keystone mastery, making it feel so obligatory and boring.

Why not add that to a reworked Deathfire Touch so that people actually use the damn thing, and give it an identity as that thing for people with DoT's and burst mages?