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PSA: Your account and any money spent on it is not your property.

DevilishMetal··89 votes·6,175 views

First part of section 4A in the Terms of Use:

*** All rights and title in and to the Properties, and all content included therein*** (including, without limitation, user Accounts, computer code, titles, objects, artifacts, characters, character names, locations, location names, stories, story lines, dialog, catch phrases, artwork, graphics, structural or landscape designs, animations, sounds, musical compositions and recordings, Riot Points (defined below), audio-visual effects, character likenesses, and methods of operation) are owned by Riot Games or its licensors.

I say this only because some people seem to belive that they're entitled to their money back if they're permabanned. Even you think it is unjust, they don't actually need a reason to ban you nor give you a warning. See below:

RIOT GAMES RESERVES THE RIGHT TO SUSPEND, TERMINATE, MODIFY OR DELETE YOUR ACCOUNT AT ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON OR NO REASON, WITH OR WITHOUT NOTICE TO YOU, AND WITH NO LIABILITY OF ANY KIND TO YOU.

TL;DR: It doesn't matter how you got banned. Riot doesn't owe you anything.

129 Comments

Colgate Gator31 votes

Personally I find it pretty funny when salty people say they will fill a lawsuit agaisnt Riot.

DevilishMetal13 votes

Maybe I should have said this in the post. I don't think Riot would ever ban somebody with NO reason whatsoever. I just wanted to bring to the attention of the community that the moment you spend money on this game, it is gone regardless of what happens to your account. Even if you self terminate, they keep the money.

Siyther9 votes

wow sure dont make me wanna spend any money anymore lol can bann ur account for no reason.wtf is that shit. wait so if i bought everything there was to buy Riot might possibly ban my account(in theory) so i have to make another and start spending more money again. Yeah this little tid-bit might just cause a lot of ppl not to spend any money.

Deep Terror Nami41 votes

This is a standard agreement for video games. You are basically renting the use of an account.

LF Annie20 votes

i think it will change within 10 years, i'm pretty sure that game companies get away with it because the legal grey area between law growth and technology growth.

Narasimha9 votes

Eh, it's a pretty messy area no matter what. Since it's not a physical nor a tangible thing, and you're not actually paying to use it, the rights of property do fall to the developer and producer, in this case Riot. It's like renting a room in a house, essentially. At the end of the day, it's still the owner's house, and therefor their room. They have the right to kick you out if you break the conditions established and agreed on.

LF Annie10 votes

but if you were in their house, and they offered you something on their wall for money, you would get to take it with you when you left.

DevilishMetal13 votes

[{quoted}](name=LF Annie,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=VF1xvsfL,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-11T19:25:00.497+0000)

but if you were in their house, and they offered you something on their wall for money, you would get to take it with you when you left.

Actually, that's a very good point, I'm glad you brought that up. I don't see it like that- lets try to translate it to something that's physical property.

Lets say you go buy a baseball bat. You buy all the nicest grips and stuff (do people buy extra things for baseball bats? Regardless, it's an example so stick with me) for your shiny new baseball bats.

Now, lets say that rather than doing what a baseball bat is intended to do and, say, playing baseball, you go bash someone on the head with your brand new bat. Now, you certainly aren't going to be keeping your bat. You also arent getting a refund for the bat or anything on it.

Now, here's where the moral divide occurs that makes this such a weird issue. Your shiny new bat can't be taken for no reason. That's called stealing. The reason this doesn't necessarily apply to an account in League is that all accounts, code, etc. are property of Riot Games. Not you.

You're buying stickers for Riot's bat. It's up to you to decide whether or not you're okay with that, because if you aren't, then you best stop spending money.

LF Annie5 votes

that's why i said it's a legal grey area. i haven't been banned from anything but the forums, and i got banned mainly because i asked for it. (literally) but i wont be surprised if riot has to change their policy at some point when laws catch up to technology.

KaisadiIIa2 votes

I think they'll never have to change it, because it's not abusive (they aren't trying to be able to ban freely). It's just to ensure you can't "trick" them (suing them for stupid reasons like "I don't know/it's not established what toxic behavior is" and cause them any trouble). This way they ensure that, no matter how bad do you react to a ban, they can't be touched.

LF Annie2 votes

tradition is the corpse of wisdom. it will change eventually.

fractalfantasies2 votes

The law does have to shift in favour of the user.

I think legally it is questionable since you can't draw up a contract entitling someone to engage in illegal behaviour, contrary to popular belief, signing contracts doesn't give you the right to do anything in that contract. The contract itself has to be legal, heck in the UK, you have to be 18 to be able to even legally enter into a contract (I believe.)

Biffolo2 votes

Haven't the laws in some countries already started shifting though? There have been multiple cases where even though something is in a TOS, it's considered unlawful and is overturned. Not with games specifically, but you know what I mean.

Hobbsgoblin1 votes

{quoted}

The law does have to shift in favour of the user.

I think legally it is questionable since you can't draw up a contract entitling someone to engage in illegal behaviour, contrary to popular belief, signing contracts doesn't give you the right to do anything in that contract. The contract itself has to be legal, heck in the UK, you have to be 18 to be able to even legally enter into a contract (I believe.)

I feel the law in this matter shouldn't have to shift in the user's favor. If companies had to be at the legal whim of person that were being toxic to their community just because that person gave the company money the community as a whole would be worse off. Regarding the bulk of your statement you are correct. A few examples; here in the US I can never sign myself into slavery, I can't sign away my right to free speech or my other constitutional rights without a judge allowing it and just like the UK if I am under the age of 18 I can not enter a legally binding contract with anyone without my parent/guardian's permission unless I have been legally emancipated.

However, if the Riots user agreement contact is deemed to be illegal then that means none of us were allowed to use their server in the first place.

fractalfantasies3 votes

I'm not sure I agree with your last statement, Riot could have no terms of service, the only requirement being that you don't use LoL to break the law in other ways (which is always required of you anyway)

I agree there is a problem with toxicity, but at the same time, Riot deals with toxic behaviour in the most lazy, pathetic way. People are essentially voted off in an automated system, a change in the law would force Riot to handle things better. If it were an agreement where you own your account so long as you obey the rules, you could sue Riot if you can prove they unjustly took your account from you.

Jari1 votes

As just a counter argument here.

If it was changed so you did owe your account, what right does Riot Games have to take it away? It's your property now. If Riot takes it down, then there'd be a legit reason to file a lawsuit over the money used on it.

That's why companies like Riot has to mark it as rent, because otherwise people would just take all their money back after being an asshole and getting banned.

LF Annie1 votes

the counter argument for that is that they can make a version of the game playable offline and do the xbox model of "you still own the game, but you cant use our servers for it" model of banning.

Jari1 votes

League is meant as a team game, and therefor an offline version makes no sense for it. Why play solo in a game that requires working as a team?

And honestly the bots are so dumb that an offline version would be unfun, basically being the same thing. I'm not seeing your point here.

LF Annie3 votes

even if it sucks, you would never have someone crying about having their stuff taken away [slayer-jinx-catface]

DevilishMetal4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deep Terror Nami,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=VF1xvsfL,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2016-01-11T18:05:38.308+0000)

This is a standard agreement for video games. You are basically renting the use of an account.

DEEP TERROR NAMI IS ON MY THREAD OMG

But yeah, that's pretty much the point. None of this is really yours, or anyones, except for Riot's.

AbyssionKnight2 votes

Not much that can be done. They could just follow the real world system at that point. "Oh, we can't just remove your account? Fine, but we've added a jail mechanic to the game, preventing you from playing until your sentence is up, with a chance of repeal half way through.

Get's the same result, while letting the person still 'own' their account.

Catastrop2 votes

You speak as if Riot comes to your house and demand you spend money.

S H A Y C 04 votes

They didn't come to your house????? You must have spent money willingly then, jatt and phreak came to my house and threatened my little sister with ceaseless puns

Sarutobi7 votes

I would say this should be obvious. But when you read people's thread about being ban and almost always use the excuse that they paid money. So that must mean they are allowed to break the rules and get no punishment!

KaisadiIIa2 votes

People think they are VIP users that can do whatever they want in a game. I had some months ago someone in a game insulting everyone while saying "RIOT will do nothing because I've spent a lot of money on this game". 10 mins later a message popped up in my client: "one player you've reported recently has been punished."

Saturnalia92 votes

{quoted}

People think they are VIP users that can do whatever they want in a game. I had some months ago someone in a game insulting everyone while saying "RIOT will do nothing because I've spent a lot of money on this game". 10 mins later a message popped up in my client: "one player you've reported recently has been punished."

LOL I had that exact same thing happen to me about 3 weeks ago. You made my day. xD

fractalfantasies4 votes

I've never been banned and I do buy RP but I think morally that is an extremely questionable way of thinking, there is a user agreement which we press 'accept' on, but legally you can't generally sign away your rights.

I can't write a contract entitling someone else to murder me for example

Naramiel3 votes

{quoted}

I've never been banned and I do buy RP but I think morally that is an extremely questionable way of thinking, there is a user agreement which we press 'accept' on, but legally you can't generally sign away your rights.

I can't write a contract entitling someone else to murder me for example

Just so. People tend to act as if anything is legal if it's in a ToS, even though keeping up to date with it would mean having to reread the entire thing every single time there's a patch.

If Riot says "clicking accept indicates that Riot(TM) now owns all of your worldly possessions, including every dollar you earn for the rest of your life", that wouldn't mean they did.

fractalfantasies2 votes

Exactly.

I'm pretty shocked to say the least at how much people are willing to just hand their consumer rights over to a large corporation.

Elkhantar2 votes

I actually know of one instance of TOS that literally stated that you sold your soul to them. This was obviously meant as a joke, but it gives some insight on what the devs think of the usefulness of the TOS, and how people don't fret about it and don't even read them.

All in all, they can be challenged, but it's much harder to have them ruled out as abusive (moreso when you agreed beforehand and they are somewhat reasonable) than just complaining and getting some ruling unfavorable to RIOT if they weren't there.

DeynaTaggerung2 votes

I think the idea that most people go with is knowing the company they're signing a contract with and trusting that they aren't going to screw your rights over. Like I know that Riot won't randomly take away my account and my money so I feel safe entrusting some of it to them. Just like people trust paypal to steal their money.

fractalfantasies1 votes

but that's just it though, some people do feel hard done by and legally 'you just trust them to behave well' isn't really good enough.

Riot isn't a malicious company in the slightest, but they're extremely faceless and deal with bans in a very haphazard manner.

DeynaTaggerung1 votes

haphazard manner? I'm curious what makes you think that

fractalfantasies2 votes

Firstly to just re-emphasise, I have never been banned.

People are banned based on an automated system which isn't checked whereby they get enough votes from other members of the (fairly shitty) community.

Saturnalia91 votes

{quoted}

Firstly to just re-emphasise, I have never been banned.

People are banned based on an automated system which isn't checked whereby they get enough votes from other members of the (fairly shitty) community.

I think/hope the Tribunal is still active. If not, I hope Riot reinstates it eventually... perhaps as a full-time paying job? On the other hand, that would be a LOT of cases to read through, and a lot of chat logs as well. Perhaps have a large Tribunal, or even have a pop-up for random clean-history players (like the in-client surveys) to act as a jury.

Considering we are able to play the game for free, I wouldn't see any argument in participating in a random jury every now and then. It'll also be more fair to all the players.

fractalfantasies2 votes

It was my understanding that Riot got rid of it.

It's not perfect but it's certainly decent, maybe only have players will a good recorded of behaviour sitting jury duty but reward them somehow to turn jury-service into a good thing.

Saturnalia91 votes

{quoted}

It was my understanding that Riot got rid of it.

It's not perfect but it's certainly decent, maybe only have players will a good recorded of behaviour sitting jury duty but reward them somehow to turn jury-service into a good thing.

I'm not sure about rewarding jury service. Imagine all the ragers wishing they were in jury duty... If they do get rewarded, maybe 50 or 100 IP. Such a small amount won't really be worth raging over, and yet that 50 or 100 extra IP might be enough to get that rune or champion you've been saving up for.

fractalfantasies1 votes

That's fair or a 2 match IP boost. It doesn't have to be much, just a quick ty for 20mins of your time.

DeynaTaggerung1 votes

Well actually the number of votes from various people in the League community doesn't actually factor in. You're right there is an automated system though. Reports are flags to the system to go through and check that game(and particularly the accused) for signs of the behavior reported. If evidence is found then the system determines how serious it is and checks with previous history to see if a ban is merited.

The members of the player behavior team spent a long time planning and writing this software to make sure it accomplished their goals. They then hand checked the first few thousand decisions to make sure that it always worked as they intended. All that aside I think I've seen possibly 2 cases where when someone came complaining on the boards about an unfair ban and a Rioter checked into it the decision being overturned.

I can't really say that's all too haphazard or unreliable.

fractalfantasies1 votes

Most people who are banned, have done something against the rules, but that doesn't mean there is no error.

There are times I have been reported unjustly and there are times where I have no be reported and I deserved to be, pulling up the chat logs of someone who is banned and them showing that person was toxic, does not actually demonstrate that the system is working.

DeynaTaggerung1 votes

Well those times that you were reported unjustly, the system found that the reports were in error and didn't count those against you. Sadly there's not much they can do to catch people when nobody reports them because it'd be ridiculously hard to check every single game of league.

koager2 votes

Yup The part of the standard ToS doesn't mean that the game company is going to start banning people all willy-nilly but that it covers a broad general things so that game companies don't have to list every exact reason why an account can get banned. Against people for trying to find loopholes around cheating or exploiting or whatever "See! You never said I explicitly cannot __________". Also can be used to cover their asses in case an accidental or preventive ban goes through.

KaisadiIIa4 votes

"See! You said hate speeching is reportable, but I wasn't shaming anyone when I said "I hope you die of cancer f*cking authistic gay". As far as I'm aware, that sentence in Spanish means "good job", and I was trying to speak in Spanish because I thought this teammate was Spanish."

Of course it will never be that exaggerated, but that's what people would do.

(Yes, I had the urge to expand your comment).

xReadyPlayerOnex1 votes

[deleted]

Hobo of Love14 votes

Oh yes, people who believe legal contracts should be binding are certainly on the same moral ground as child molesters.

Mama Soraka19 votes

I'm actually a happier person being unable to read what this poster wrote if your reply is any indicator..

DevilishMetal5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mauve Thunder,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=VF1xvsfL,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2016-01-11T19:13:25.559+0000)

I'm actually a happier person being unable to read what this poster wrote if your reply is any indicator..

Ignorance truly is bliss, yes?

TheVishual1 votes

{quoted}

First part of section 4A in the Terms of Use:

*** All rights and title in and to the Properties, and all content included therein*** (including, without limitation, user Accounts, computer code, titles, objects, artifacts, characters, character names, locations, location names, stories, story lines, dialog, catch phrases, artwork, graphics, structural or landscape designs, animations, sounds, musical compositions and recordings, Riot Points (defined below), audio-visual effects, character likenesses, and methods of operation) are owned by Riot Games or its licensors.

I say this only because some people seem to belive that they're entitled to their money back if they're permabanned. Even you think it is unjust, they don't actually need a reason to ban you nor give you a warning. See below:

RIOT GAMES RESERVES THE RIGHT TO SUSPEND, TERMINATE, MODIFY OR DELETE YOUR ACCOUNT AT ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON OR NO REASON, WITH OR WITHOUT NOTICE TO YOU, AND WITH NO LIABILITY OF ANY KIND TO YOU.

TL;DR: It doesn't matter how you got banned. Riot doesn't owe you anything.

Just because its in the ToS doesn't mean it's the ethically right thing to do, even if it is legally right. I've never heard of someone getting banned in any other video game over toxic chat.

ModPrandine3 votes

{quoted}

Just because its in the ToS doesn't mean it's the ethically right thing to do, even if it is legally right. I've never heard of someone getting banned in any other video game over toxic chat.

Oh I have. Online game companies are cracking down on people verbally abusing others with the chat, going from simple perma-mutes to outright permabans for the repeat and serious enough offenders.

Weeb Guardian3 votes

So you think that it's right to be a friendly/shy person in real life, but an asshole when there's a screen in front of you?

I'm sorry, but i don't.

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