Simply make his passive only apply on-hit effects on the first hit.
Bork may still need nerfs, but doing this will keep Lucian in line while not gutting him because he found another build. It also allows riot to balance bork for all adcs as opposed to gutting it because one of them abuses it too hard
RiotRiotRepertoir38 votesIf we're going to Lucian, the one's I'd be looking at doing are:
Both of these could hit him in the feels, but they don't really affect his top end case, so they seem reasonable to me.
Doozku5 votesGiving him higher mana costs to make him have to buy essence reaver or some kind of mana itemization may be the way to go to fix lucian abusing anything and everything that isn't crit.
Stalinium1 votesOn this^ subject- Have you ever played AP Lucian on URF? hehehe
MysticFlameHaze2 votesI've mostly felt that as these changes come out, carries that are supposed to be squishy and trade of with damage are getting too many items that make them all close to a bruiser, BC hasn't been fixed, you see the complaints about Death's dance, Phantom dancer shouldn't give movespeed towards a target, why? because the ones building it are already mobile and it reduces damage, so if the opponent knows not to fight that person because they are behind they still have less strength to fight back cause of PD damage reduction and the enemy gets to move faster towards them while they wanted to escape. Vayne yasuo lucian and whoever else is grabbing it.
Chromatic Eagle2 votesThose seem fair, but what about his passive? I've seen several people complain about it.
WinTheWarOnPants4 votesWhat about nerfs to 
? This item has been one of if not the most universally bought item for way too long. IMO it's CDR should be removed so that it's at least a little by more niche and not good on every AD champ in the game.
edit: lucian has always abused this item, and even now that he's abusing 
, it's arguable that he's abusing cleaver to abuse BORK, since the armor shed buffs the BORK passive as well as lucian passive let's him artificially increase his AA's with CDR.
RiotRiotRepertoir23 votesThat's a fair sentiment, but it did get its shred reduced in 7.9.
Black Cleaver is intended to be a core first purchase item for many users to get them up and running, in a similar way that Morellonomicon is. If Lucian building it is undesirable, I think we should try to make Lucian feel a cost for going down that path before nerfing the item again.
The Lost Marbles4 votesThat's a fair sentiment, but it did get its shred reduced in 7.9.
Black Cleaver is intended to be a core first purchase item for many users to get them up and running, in a similar way that Morellonomicon is. If Lucian building it is undesirable, I think we should try to make Lucian feel a cost for going down that path before nerfing the item again.
Would it be possible to make Piercing Light's cast time and/or cooldown scale down with Lucian's bonus Attack Speed rather than CDR or level, similar to how Yasuo's Q works?
Due to the way Lucian's kit works, there's not much incentive to building AS over CDR on him (Phantom Dancer is bought because its passives are strong on Lucian and synergize nicely with Cleaver's Rage, with the AS mostly being a bonus), which in turn makes crit builds less attractive because a large part of crit builds is AS.
The only way to make Cleaver feel like a trade-off for Lucian (without changing Cleaver at all) is for Lucian to not benefit as much from the CDR in some manner. CDR does everything for him, after all. Better poke by lowering Q/W cooldowns, better kiting by lowering W/E cooldowns and having the Rage passive... There's no real trade-off anywhere.
Just my two cents.
Cosnirak8 votesI feel that BC is overpowered on many champions, not just Lucian. I really appreciate the nerf it got but it's still extremely strong. And worst of all, I feel that its power varies too greatly, even among champions meant to buy it first, due to the way its stacks can be applied.
In regards to Lucian and mana: Running out of mana is extremely unfun. If Lucian truly needs mana from items to function it can work out, but if Riot rides the line tight enough you just end up with a champ that deletes people super fast then goes back to base often because few people are going to opt for lower damage if there's any chance they can get away with higher damage.
Keep in mind tight mana restrictions could hurt Lucian's early game 'bullying' which will make him very week outside of favorable matchups. I get that a change to his E with ranks is meant to avoid that issue by making it a mid game only change but I have strong doubts it can be tuned correctly for a wide variety of ELOs and matchups. And mostly I think there are far better options, including the original suggestion of this thread.
LankPants10 votesIn regards to Lucian and mana: Running out of mana is extremely unfun.
Having an enemy Lucian dash around every 2 seconds with no actual cost is even more unfun.
Keep in mind tight mana restrictions could hurt Lucian's early game 'bullying' which will make him very week outside of favorable matchups.
From what I understand this wouldn't be increasing the rank 1 mana cost, rather making it a static 40 at all ranks. Seems like a solid change to me.
SpongebobIsLife1 votesyes, this is what im scared of. Lucian depends on his early game to get ahead as he is not a hyper carry adc. Forcing him to build ER zeal, the worst powerspike of all the traditional items, would really hurt his early game.
1374341 votesI think the goal isn't to "force" him into a build path, but require tradeoffs for selecting a buildpath. Want to stick with the current buildpath and keep the damage? Fine, but you have to be more mindful of your mana usage and thus mobility (E).
Want the mobility? Fine, take ER/zeal, but pay with less damage early.
Cosnirak sees this as a negative:
but if Riot rides the line tight enough you just end up with a champ that deletes people super fast then goes back to base often because few people are going to opt for lower damage if there's any chance they can get away with higher damage.
But Riot may not. Someone who deletes other super fast but has to constantly go back to base is someone who is in the field less pushing down lanes and objectives or applying pressure. They can still stay out there but then risk getting caught with no mana.
Voluug132 votesWhy not change Lucian's passive that causes more problems for the champion's overall power that its worth? How many times will Lucian need to be nerfed because he is abusing X meme on-hit build?
LordGeovanni1 votesSame but W Ezreal and WO Nerfs
Sohleks3 votesBlack Cleaver CDR 20% -> 10%
CDR buffs for its "intended users"?
I can see it's meant for brawly top laners being able to soften their tank opponents. Although I don't think it's right that you hold those champions balance hostage to an actually fundamentally problematic item that has nothing in place stopping characters with other advantages using it. Who use it better because they're ranged with better target access and get peeled for.
Lucian isn't gonna drop Black Cleaver just because you choke his mana costs a bit. The item lets him be target agnostic and it makes him tankier. He's made Vayne look pointless at times with these builds.
It also doesn't help graves insta stacks black cleaver for his ADC friend. Did someone go out of their way to code that abominable synergy because it seems like grave's bullets applies damage together?
Overall this'll allow more power budget for the actual pen/stats of the item and leave more room for juggers to grab frozen heart and ect. Or maybe a slightly lower cost will get juggers off the ground faster and lower its slot efficiency for carries. True though that the last time BC was cheap tanks were pushed out of top lane even when sunfire was stronger. Maybe it should stay more premium so carries really pay for it...
Could open up some options too. " They need this item to function" and they're not even prevalent with the item compared to others is just a red flag to me. The item is too much a clutch. Especially since the item is mean vs. themself too.
The way I see it I see champions and items and masteries in seperate vacuums. And in those you see trends. And they usually mean something. And using one to compensate another is just masking a problem. Hybrid champions have a lot of fun with it with Mordekaiser making great use of the best frontline and AP items when he was good (Rylias/ect.) or I can stick both gunblade and Bork with Fervor on Teemo and if farmed well that's a strong build. I don't think it's fantastic that Darius is tuned to balance for low elo while requiring a suspiciously prominent item to function.
What function does 
even have anymore other than an AD stick for a splitpushing %max hp true dmg scaling fiora?
LordGeovanni1 votesBlack Cleaver was better with more ad and less hp. Its passive is alittle too good for how core it is and it invalidates fighters that want to build more carry like and tanks if anyone else on the opposing team has another armor pen item. While tank items have been steadily nerfed for years. If black cleaver stacks to 18% - 20% Armor penetration 300 hp and 45- 60ad 10%CDR it would likely still be core on fighters. A good way too buff if it is needed is to buff phage's movement speed after it is upgraded to Black Cleaver or Trinity Force. Both 
and seem far too powerful. Black Cleaver in that its passive and cdr is too good. Morellonomicon is an item worth an item slot with just its damage and cdr stats, no mana or passive. With the mana and passive and half the hp and cdr its still worth an item slot though 80 ap may sit better with a weaker passive.
Sohleks1 votesIf it had too much more AD carries are still gonna keep it even at 10% cdr.
It might be more balanced and less attractive at 10% cdr.. but do juggers use that CDR better even though the CDR is universally good...?
Health is universally useful too... even to carries... especially how this game's meta matured.
Maybe phage movement speed could be melee only. The only downside to this is it's a slant to ranged characters that like Trinity Force. Maybe it'd help balance Corki though..?
Also personally I don't like Black Cleaver Gnar. On hit items are really fun on him or failing the balls to do that frozen mallet is the nicer core item usually... Though less boring than frozen mallet but less consistent IMO. Frozen Mallet gnar is not healthy fun though. Less exciting way to play him IMO however it's effective and I need every ounce of effective on Gnar I can get to be a reliable carry force on him.
I slightly contradict myself. But I think I'm coming to the consensus BC is an overloaded item at 20% cdr and that jugger champions are made to be too reliant on it while certain other characters are just allowed to get away with it.
LordGeovanni1 votesI belive the cdr and passive is why adcs pic black cleaver as their health item which once tjose stats are balanced i dont mind ther need to lengthen adc cooldowns and increase mana costs same with mages and assassins maybe higher per skill rank those classes get away with too much spam over their years of buffs
LordGeovanni1 votesMaking 
crit only was a mistake crit carries dont even use the item often. While fighters with heavy mana costs and needing ad and life steal loved the item. It can stay at 65 ad with its previous passive and other stats.
fuffychan8 votesThat would completely defeat the purpose of his passive.
Saevum25 votes[zombie-brand-facepalm]
Salron11 votesWhat was incorrect about what he said? Your nerf idea is targetted at bork, but it also would nerf his double procs with redbuff, and halve the speed at which he stacks fervor
Saevum8 votesOh the poor Lucian. How could I?
Yeah, let's just send all the other BoTRK relying champs go fk themselves. IT MAKES SENSE.
Guess what? He still applies Red buff and he still gains fervor stacks that he doesnt need too much to begin with.
What da fk am i thinking man. Srsly.
Vallalan1 votesinteresting point. didn't consider that fervor stacked that way. that would be a pretty massive nerf to mid and late game lucian as in lane fervor damage is negligible. that's pretty undesirable. red buff shouldn't be considered. more so the fervor which is core on adcs right now and always core on Lucian unless its insanely underpowered.
maybe change fervor to an On-attack effect and count each of his passive shots as on-attack?
Asayake 5150glow2 votes[{quoted}](name=Charlie Loves U,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=O7ep4Vg1,comment-id=0001000000000002,timestamp=2017-05-07T22:49:49.086+0000)
interesting point. didn't consider that fervor stacked that way. that would be a pretty massive nerf to mid and late game lucian as in lane fervor damage is negligible. that's pretty undesirable. red buff shouldn't be considered. more so the fervor which is core on adcs right now and always core on Lucian unless its insanely underpowered.
maybe change fervor to an On-attack effect and count each of his passive shots as on-attack?
Red buff is no longer an onhit effect, I believe. It does extra true damage on your first auto, then after that it's a completely separate burn.
Ahristocats10 voteshow is this upvoted? i literally cannot understanding
that's like making yi passive only applying on-hit effect on first hit
lucian passive deals 50% reduced AD because it's a passive encouraging you to build on-hit effects, that nerf idea is straight up stupid
MunchCrunchLunch3 votesThat would completely defeat the purpose of his passive.
his passive has 60% ad scaling and can crit. how would it gut it?
Sraeg20134 voteshow would it gut it?
Can you read? He never said "gut".
Trias0002 votesThat would completely defeat the purpose of his passive.
I wouldn't state it like that, but I agree that his passive would be pretty meh after that change.
Asayake 5150glow1 votesI wouldn't state it like that, but I agree that his passive would be pretty meh after that change.
Bonus damage after using an ability, and quicker Cleaver stacking. Also quicker Fervor stacking, and instant Tlords if Lucian ever wants to go that again. And double Stattik Shiv/Firecannon/Warlords Bloodlust stacking. It's got plenty of uses.
Riven's passive is literally a worse version, without all the benefits of a multi-hit and scaling up in damage to be way less, instead of 40/50/60% AD, Riven goes from around 30 to 55 i think.
Atanchan1 votes[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=O7ep4Vg1,comment-id=000100020000,timestamp=2017-05-07T23:33:13.098+0000)
Bonus damage after using an ability, and quicker Cleaver stacking. Also quicker Fervor stacking, and instant Tlords if Lucian ever wants to go that again. And double Stattik Shiv/Firecannon/Warlords Bloodlust stacking. It's got plenty of uses.
Fervor would be out, since it's an on-hit effect.
[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=O7ep4Vg1,comment-id=000100020000,timestamp=2017-05-07T23:33:13.098+0000)
Riven's passive is literally a worse version, without all the benefits of a multi-hit and scaling up in damage to be way less, instead of 40/50/60% AD, Riven goes from around 30 to 55 i think.
Riven also doesn't care, because what on-hit effects would she want? She mostly makes use of autos for early lane trading and snuck in the middle of her abilities, so she more just wants raw AD which she benefits from far more.
Her passive is also not a double hit. It's more like an in-built Sheen.
Asayake 5150glow1 votesFervor would be out, since it's an on-hit effect.
Riven also doesn't care, because what on-hit effects would she want? She mostly makes use of autos for early lane trading and snuck in the middle of her abilities, so she more just wants raw AD which she benefits from far more.
Fervor? For more AD? Cleaver? To shred more armor? Two hits of damage to proc Tlords with a W+auto or Q+auto? Same things Lucian gets, besides Bork.
Her passive is also not a double hit. It's more like an in-built Sheen.
Yeah. That's the difference between her passive and Lucians. Oh, and hers also has a worse AD scaling because fuck it.
Atanchan1 votes[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=O7ep4Vg1,comment-id=00010002000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-08T01:00:23.041+0000)
Fervor? For more AD? Cleaver? To shred more armor? Two hits of damage to proc Tlords with a W+auto or Q+auto? Same things Lucian gets, besides Bork.
The only on-hit effect you brought up was Fervor ... which she already kinda has a double-hit passive in comparison to Lucian, except all the time, since melees get 2 Fervor stacks on-hit. Black Cleaver stacks on physical damage, which means she already stacks it insanely fast through just animation-canceling her Qs. Her passive providing a second damage instance would legitimately allow her to fully stack Cleaver with 2 Qs or E + Q, allowing the rest of her rotation to fully benefit from it. Lucian can't even compare to that - sure, his Q + auto makes 3 stacks already, but with a full rotation, only the last passive auto would benefit fully from it until his Q cooldown is back.
[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=O7ep4Vg1,comment-id=00010002000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-08T01:00:23.041+0000)
Yeah. That's the difference between her passive and Lucians. Oh, and hers also has a worse AD scaling because fuck it.
Master Yi's has better scaling, too. Even after Riven maxes it - since his applies on-hits a second time and can crit. Also, Jax gets far more attack speed out of his passive than Voli does from his E and doesn't lose it all at once when he stops attacking, Nasus's Q grants him extra range, has a lower mana cost, and scales endlessly when Jax's W does not, and Renekton's R doesn't cost anything unlike Nasus's R, despite him having two dashes and quite a lot of early damage when Nasus is as bulliable and immobile as it gets.
As it happens, similar abilities don't have to be equal. That's why they're similar, not the same.
Asayake 5150glow1 votesThe only on-hit effect you brought up was Fervor ... which she already kinda has a double-hit passive in comparison to Lucian, except all the time, since melees get 2 Fervor stacks on-hit. Black Cleaver stacks on physical damage, which means she already stacks it insanely fast through just animation-canceling her Qs. Her passive providing a second damage instance would legitimately allow her to fully stack Cleaver with 2 Qs or E + Q, allowing the rest of her rotation to fully benefit from it. Lucian can't even compare to that - sure, his Q + auto makes 3 stacks already, but with a full rotation, only the last passive auto would benefit fully from it until his Q cooldown is back.
And Lucian also stacks it insanely fast? He stacks it faster than Riven, auto+Q+auto+E+auto=boom fully applied. Then your next W+auto benefits completely, as well as the second hit on your E doubleshot.
Master Yi's has better scaling, too. Even after Riven maxes it - since his applies on-hits a second time and can crit. Also, Jax gets far more attack speed out of his passive than Voli does from his E and doesn't lose it all at once when he stops attacking, Nasus's Q grants him extra range, has a lower mana cost, and scales endlessly when Jax's W does not, and Renekton's R doesn't cost anything unlike Nasus's R, despite him having two dashes and quite a lot of early damage when Nasus is as bulliable and immobile as it gets.
As it happens, similar abilities don't have to be equal. That's why they're similar, not the same.
Yeah, and Riven's is worse. I'm not complaining, that's just a fact. I'm not saying she's less powerful, it's just a fact that her passive is not as great. First, I was talking about how Lucian's passive wouldn't be meh even if it lost onhit. Then you said that Riven wouldn't care, and I told you how she would, from instant Tlords with W+auto to doubled Fervor stacking to doubled Cleaver stacking.
Atanchan1 votes[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=O7ep4Vg1,comment-id=0001000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-08T19:04:45.147+0000)
And Lucian also stacks it insanely fast? He stacks it faster than Riven, auto+Q+auto+E+auto=boom fully applied. Then your next W+auto benefits completely, as well as the second hit on your E doubleshot.
W doesn't benefit at all. Also, this requires you to already be in auto+Q range, as opposed to E-auto ( 2 stacks )-Q ( 3 stacks )-auto ( 5 stacks )-W-auto ( 6 stacks ), where only the weak last passive hit fully benefits.
Of course, this is ignoring the fact that you pretty blatantly quoted something you barely even read, considering I've going over this again, but eh.
[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=O7ep4Vg1,comment-id=0001000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-08T19:04:45.147+0000)
Yeah, and Riven's is worse. I'm not complaining, that's just a fact. I'm not saying she's less powerful, it's just a fact that her passive is not as great. First, I was talking about how Lucian's passive wouldn't be meh even if it lost onhit. Then you said that Riven wouldn't care, and I told you how she would, from instant Tlords with W+auto to doubled Fervor stacking to doubled Cleaver stacking.
Literally the only one she'd care about on-hits for is Fervor. The rest would just come from it being another damage instance.
Hell, if it flat-out just applied on-hits twice, she wouldn't even get most of that stuff, only Fervor.
Asayake 5150glow1 votesW doesn't benefit at all. Also, this requires you to already be in auto+Q range, as opposed to E-auto ( 2 stacks )-Q ( 3 stacks )-auto ( 5 stacks )-W-auto ( 6 stacks ), where only the weak last passive hit fully benefits.
I kinda forgot it fully stacked at 6 stacks, not 5, so yeah I was pretty dumb there.
Of course, this is ignoring the fact that you pretty blatantly quoted something you barely even read, considering I've going over this again, but eh.
Literally the only one she'd care about on-hits for is Fervor. The rest would just come from it being another damage instance.
Hell, if it flat-out just applied on-hits twice, she wouldn't even get most of that stuff, only Fervor.
So what? I'm talking about if Riven's passive was a doublehit as well. Not if it applied onhit twice. Oh, and actually that's completely wrong. She'd be able to apply 2 passive stacks, for an extra ~55% AD on her auto. Yes, it works, because it works with Rageblade.
Atanchan1 votes[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=O7ep4Vg1,comment-id=000100020000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-09T19:10:08.991+0000)
So what? I'm talking about if Riven's passive was a doublehit as well. Not if it applied onhit twice. Oh, and actually that's completely wrong. She'd be able to apply 2 passive stacks, for an extra ~55% AD on her auto. Yes, it works, because it works with Rageblade.
... If the ability itself worked like that, I would imagine it would apply all the stacks, because:
So that's 75% - 150% of your AD as bonus damage, on-hits applied four times, and a very hurt or very dead target. 'Course, there'd be ways to code it to avoid that, but it'd actually be kinda interesting to have a charged on-hit effect that applies on-hit effects again, effectively looping until it was out of charges. It'd easily fall into the same pitfalls the 5.0 attack speed Kog'maw did, of course, but still.
Asayake 5150glow1 votes... If the ability itself worked like that, I would imagine it would apply all the stacks, because:
- The attack would land, causing on-hit effects and activating the Runic Blade buff.
- The Runic Blade buff adds additional damage to the attack, subtracts a stack, and applies on-hit effects ... and activating itself, if it still has a stack.
- Additional damage is added, stack is subtracted, on-hit effects are applied ... and once more, the buff is activated if it still has a stack remaining.
- Additional damage is added, stack is subtracted, on-hit effects applied, and at this point, it's not possible to have any more stacks.
So that's 75% - 150% of your AD as bonus damage, on-hits applied four times, and a very hurt or very dead target. 'Course, there'd be ways to code it to avoid that, but it'd actually be kinda interesting to have a charged on-hit effect that applies on-hit effects again, effectively looping until it was out of charges. It'd easily fall into the same pitfalls the 5.0 attack speed Kog'maw did, of course, but still.
Yeah... I realized that after I replied...
Although, instead of being super convulated, if it were implemented, it would more be each stack adds %AD and applies onhit, as a separate source of physical damage, casting an ability gives one stack, all stacks are used in 1 auto. Basically use all your abilities (or cap stacks), then auto for a shit ton.
Atanchan1 votesY'know, aside from the on-hit stuff and maybe the additional damage instance, isn't that basically just that Edge rework she had on the PBE previously that didn't go through?
Asayake 5150glow1 votesY'know, aside from the on-hit stuff and maybe the additional damage instance, isn't that basically just that Edge rework she had on the PBE previously that didn't go through?
No, the Edge rework gave her a %damage increase for however much Edge she had. It affected abilities as well as autos, and wasn't consumed by autoing. It was built by autoing, instead of just casting abilities.
Saevum5 votesThat's clever. And seems very reasonable, other items will not be affected except BC, which it also would still proc with his Ult. Upvoted to help riot see this.
AlienPrimate50 votesBlack cleaver would still be applied. Black cleaver is not an on hit effect. It clearly states "dealing physical damage."
Saevum3 votesThanks for clarification.
Guyy Fieri5 votesIsn't that what he said??
The Oasis4 votesNo, Saevum said the extra hit wouldn't.
FilDaFunk5 votesI don't think onhit effects on the onhit should be removed. However, since normal aa damage only applies for 1/2, could this be applied to BORK and co.?
Rebonack3 votesGiven that Kog got a revert for using OnHit effects too well, this doesn't seem unreasonable.
It would amount to nerfing the power of BoRK on him and nothing else given that he doesn't build any other OnHit gear.
Steelflame2 votesThe issue is Lifesteal in general is an On-hit effect. Purging on hits from his passive not just removes BorK from him, but also shreds his lifesteal in general. Notably Death's Dance does get around this, but it is an effect from removing his access to on hits on his passive that is far more reaching than losing BorK's on hit damage.
The Pro Pain2 votesLife steal is not an on hit effect... Who told you that
Sraeg20134 votesGeez, why not remove Lucian altogether?