Ever since his W was nerfed, Ornn isn't even fun anymore.

Bârd·Mar 15, 2018·72 votes·27,097 views

Bellows Breath being on a 17 second CD at early ranks is bad, but is hardly the worst of it.

Bellows Breath not having "unstoppable" anymore just dramatically lowers his skill ceiling. It's like removing Maokai's untargetability frames; yeah it makes him more kitable, but it also removes a massive amount of depth from the champion. It turned the spell from something that added depth to the champion to just another "damage in a cone" spell.

That nerf, when combined with the nerf to Brittle's duration (6 seconds >> 3 seconds), makes it pretty much impossible to deal your W's brittle damage to anybody aside from their frontline, since you're so easily kited.

181 Comments

C9 Squeeky Mar 15, 201856 votes

I wouldn't mind unstoppable, I just thought he did too much max % hp dmg with W + brittle proc. I just wanted the brittle dmg to be down

SEKAIMar 15, 20189 votes

{quoted}

I wouldn't mind unstoppable, I just thought he did too much max % hp dmg with W + brittle proc. I just wanted the brittle dmg to be down

That's where they did wrong, they should've just lowered the damage and kept the unstoppable.

swaningtonMar 15, 201831 votes

Yeah riot definitely changed the wrong things.

People: ornn does too much damage with W. Riot: ok. We'll take away unstoppable.

Definitely feels very weak to play with him now. Using unstoppable correctly took good judgement and could turn a fight around if done well. Now it's a very lackluster feeling skill.

redniwediSMar 15, 201811 votes

They did have a good reason for attempting the change at least. Ornn's low level play was fine to them, but his high level play was out of line. Removing skill expression from his kit is a way to bring down the good players without harming the bad ones too much.

Still feels horrible, and I hope they revert it, but it's not like they completely ignored everything for this change.

OzXMar 15, 20184 votes

I don't get the reasoning here. It's not hard to understand (even for new players) nor is it hard to use or play around, it's not even unclear on screen as he is breathing a huge cone of flames during the duration.

I feel like the issue was excessive damage ensuring lane dominance, combined with a very strong catch/teamfight ulti (which better players are obviously better at capitalizing from).

IllabetheFeb 13, 20191 votes

You do realize that for tank Ornns..... that's pretty much the only way to kill he had. Now I want you to compare that to all these Juggernauts and Bruisers who have absolute kit resets, and 1v5 after fed. That's not Ornn. That's never been Ornn. He just has more or less one tool to win a duel. Take away the Duel and he becomes significantly weaker.

RiotRiot MapleNectarMar 15, 201844 votes

Regarding Ornn W, I'm hoping that I can provide a bit of some of the reasoning for why we opted to remove it. This wasn't something that was removed trivially as a "oh this guy needs a nerf we should take this away!", and was something that designers on Live Gameplay, Champion, and even off team talked about a ton before making the change.

What we liked about Unstoppable on W:

It provided a satisfying high moment for Ornn when he outsmarted his opponent/s by blocking their cc.
It was a unique skill test on a tanks kit that players could master.

What we didn't like:

CC Immunity on a low cd ability meant that windows of engagement were low for his opponents (this may be less of an issue now that the base cd has been increased).
You didn't get much in the way of feedback when playing against Ornn when your cc was blocked. At times it could even just feel like a bug, "Why didn't my stun work?" or you just had to accept that a guy walking at you breathing fire was immune to cc (kind of a weird thematic).
You were indiscriminately punished for trying to do something to Ornn when he was using his W in most cases. When he used his W, the only realistic counterplay was to not interact with him until the ability/shield/brittle proc had fallen off. You couldn't stop the channel, you couldn't easily sidestep him, he had a shield to soak any of your damage, etc.
Unstoppable added another mechanic to an already loaded spell when factoring in the passive. You got damage from the w, damage from the brittle proc, zoning power from brittle even if you didn't proc it, a knockback if you attacked them while brittle, a shield, cc immunity...might be forgetting something. When stacked on top of eachother, it somewhat trivialized the importance of lane phase for Ornn - meaning he was typically able to make it through unscathed, and even if he fell off post lane phase, it meant his opponent had little opportunity to gain or press a lead against him in very the most critical part of the game for them.

What it boils down to is that the conversation wasn't about whether the mechanic made Ornn too strong from a performance standpoint, but rather that it led to undesirable gameplay that couldn't really be tuned around or learned.

Disclaimer: I'm sure I forgot a plethora of points for both what we liked and what we didn't, but I want to stress that this wasn't a decision that was made lightly. Having a cool mechanic taken away always feels bad, and we try to avoid it as much as possible, but there are some rare times when we believe that it's the right thing to do. There may be a point in time when we can revisit his kit and add some mastery somewhere (or even make his items cooler now that players have more experience with that particular system), but for now he's likely in a reasonable spot for at least some time.

What would you guys find cool as a replacement assuming that you couldn't get unstoppable back on his W?

BârdMar 15, 201820 votes

If we can't have unstoppable on his W, the next best thing would be to have it on his E.

RiotRiot MapleNectarMar 15, 201819 votes

That's certainly a suggestion, though can I try to get you to think beyond the unstoppable mechanic? I think a case could be made to put it on his E, but I'd be curious if there's something else you'd be excited about rather than just putting that particular mechanic somewhere else.

EROTIC RAID BOSSMar 15, 20188 votes

Some kind of reward for using it as a counter maybe? The way garen w gives extra tenacity if used precisely. Could be damage or extra shielding. It already has a shield that makes it pretty much a good counter attack in trades though.

Maybe it should make him immovable only if he uses it right as he gets hit by a cc, very riposteish

PopcornBunniMar 15, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Nrb6qpge,comment-id=000e00000000,timestamp=2018-03-15T21:15:45.194+0000)

That's certainly a suggestion, though can I try to get you to think beyond the unstoppable mechanic? I think a case could be made to put it on his E, but I'd be curious if there's something else you'd be excited about rather than just putting that particular mechanic somewhere else.

My opinion- As a vanguard, Ornn's power should come from his engage, crowd control, and upfront durability. Him having more damage than the other tank classes -- the less mobile wardens and while not true tanks, the imobile juggernauts -- is a bit of an issue.

When Wardens and Juggernauts are trading way large amounts of mibility and CC (with the sole exception of Galio ) and still losing out 1on1 in damage and durability to a class that HAS mobility, engage, and CC, it's the most frustrating thing.

Ornn's sustain is an issue as well, having base health and mana regen values that border on the power of Garen's passive, and the ability to build health and mana in lane granting that bonus amount on the spot.

I don't even think Ornn is particularly powerful, but the places where he is strong feel the complete opposite to what his class is billed as. He should have more baseline health and defenses, less resource regen, and less uptime. Even with the cooldown increase, his shield is still up more often than, say, Poppy 's, while both are a sufficient enough value to time out before they're broken, especially considering Ornn can plink his shield up whenever he wants, and reduces the cooldown further yet with CDR, which Poppy's receives no benefit on hers.

If buffs are to be looked at, they should be in the areas of his ability to survive a series of quick bursts of damage, not in his ability to chunk 29% health in magic damage while the less mobile wardens barely get by with 16%, nor in his ability to back off for a couple of seconds and regain enough health to bully his lane opponent some more.

IllabetheFeb 13, 20191 votes

Sorry but Ornn's damage output is comparable to all other top tanks.

BârdMar 15, 201812 votes

Sure.

Searing Charge temporarily destroys normal terrain (structures excluded).
Instead of providing stat increases (valuable, but bland), Masterwork items have active effects that temporarily brings the power level of the item up a few notches (Ex. Forgefire Cape actively increases burn damage/radius, Trinity Fusion grants a big ol' movement speed boost and collision removal). Redemption and Locket could have their actives upgraded with a theme of fire.
Instead of Brittle extending CC, it reduces resists for several seconds after being proc'd.
The first pass of Call of the Forge god no longer slows (it's kind of unfair at the moment, since it's basically undodgable at max range). The second pass applies an even stronger slow to any targets struck who were afflicted with Brittle.
On ARAM, lower the forging CD to 3 minutes from 5. Also, please include the existence of the CD on the tooltip of his passive in ARAM. Forging a ruby crystal without realizing his passive has a CD has to be one of the most painful experiences in that mode.
Give the Magma Pillar some use other than destroying it with E or blocking the gap between the turret and the wall.
Give Bellows Breath an AP ratio on its minimum damage. There is a lot of fun to be had on AP Ornn.

BobaFlautistMar 15, 201813 votes

What I think made the "unstoppable" feel so good is that it feel really thematically satisfying. Ornn, like a lot of tanks, feels more appropriately themed as a Juggernauts - rather than being a powerful being that decided to focus their power on defense and protection (such as Leona, Taric, Galio, Etc), he feels like a massive, terrifying, slow, inexorable force of nature.

It's not that he's too big to easily kill, but you can survive his attacks, it's that he's slow and unstoppable, and if you aren't careful he might catch up. So be careful, and keep some distance.

Playing as, he felt like a slow, clunky, bludgeon, that you used to club overaggressive enemies into submission (which by the way has always been something I think should be valued more, I used to love playing old Shen, Alistar, and Taric top to stalemate the lane. I know "passive lanes" are considered bad gameplay, but I miss having champion picks you could choose to punish aggression, when you know the enemy Renekton or Riven won't be able to resist diving head-first into you). Playing against him, as long as I didn't pick a champion reliant on lane-bullying, I felt that I could keep some distance, heal up his relatively minor poke, pick smart trades, and scale up. As long as I accepted that he was a stronger early laner than me, I was fine. I think people really struggled against Ornn because he was a tanky lane-bully, and they're not used to playing back against tanks.

So, to actually get to your question, I think it would feel good to double down on that fantasy of "Approach cautiously, or pay the penalty". Keep him slow, clunky, and with low kill pressure, but give skilled players the tools to punish blind aggression hard.

DoozkuMar 15, 20182 votes

I used to love playing old Shen, Alistar, and Taric top to stalemate the lane. I know "passive lanes" are considered bad gameplay, but I miss having champion picks you could choose to punish aggression,

May I suggest Gangplank ?

BobaFlautistMar 15, 20184 votes

You may, and I hear you, but in theory GP is supposed to be weak to aggression.

Bow against certain champs he can force a stalemate, but it's a much more finicky balance than "I'm going to play defensively, and if you jump on me wrecklessly I will smash your face in"

OnotoriMar 15, 20183 votes

You know what I would do, if I were a balance lead at Riot? I'd revert him to when he launched. No one complained about him being broken (in fact, most people thought he was weak), but people who actually put in the time to learn how to play him did fine (without being overbearing). Changing his W from current health to max health was the most idiotic change I have ever seen on a tank that has as much sticking power as Ornn does. I already thought he was strong, and then you go and hardcore break him.

Funny thing is, you did the exact same thing to Poppy: Massively buff her because of morons that can't play her (despite mains doing fine), and then horribly gut her when she was played a lot in LC$, making her feel clunky and unfun.

I know it's not the most lucrative idea, but so what if not everyone can play a champ? It's not like Ornn or Poppy are popular nowadays, so why did you have to massively overbuff and then gut them so much that even mains don't want to play them anymore (not because they're bad, but because they're just not fun anymore)?

NihiruMar 16, 20182 votes

{quoted}

If we can't have unstoppable on his W, the next best thing would be to have it on his E.

You realise that’s a 800 range dash right?

xxxMadLionxxxMar 15, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Nrb6qpge,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2018-03-15T20:51:39.020+0000)

Regarding Ornn W, I'm hoping that I can provide a bit of some of the reasoning for why we opted to remove it. This wasn't something that was removed trivially as a "oh this guy needs a nerf we should take this away!", and was something that designers on Live Gameplay, Champion, and even off team talked about a ton before making the change.

What we liked about Unstoppable on W:

It provided a satisfying high moment for Ornn when he outsmarted his opponent/s by blocking their cc.

It was a unique skill test on a tanks kit that players could master.

What we didn't like:

CC Immunity on a low cd ability meant that windows of engagement were low for his opponents (this may be less of an issue now that the base cd has been increased).

You didn't get much in the way of feedback when playing against Ornn when your cc was blocked. At times it could even just feel like a bug, "Why didn't my stun work?" or you just had to accept that a guy walking at you breathing fire was immune to cc (kind of a weird thematic).

You were indiscriminately punished for trying to do something to Ornn when he was using his W in most cases. When he used his W, the only realistic counterplay was to not interact with him until the ability/shield/brittle proc had fallen off. You couldn't stop the channel, you couldn't easily sidestep him, he had a shield to soak any of your damage, etc.

Unstoppable added another mechanic to an already loaded spell when factoring in the passive. You got damage from the w, damage from the brittle proc, zoning power from brittle even if you didn't proc it, a knockback if you attacked them while brittle, a shield, cc immunity...might be forgetting something. When stacked on top of eachother, it somewhat trivialized the importance of lane phase for Ornn - meaning he was typically able to make it through unscathed, and even if he fell off post lane phase, it meant his opponent had little opportunity to gain or press a lead against him in very the most critical part of the game for them.

What it boils down to is that the conversation wasn't about whether the mechanic made Ornn too strong from a performance standpoint, but rather that it led to undesirable gameplay that couldn't really be tuned around or learned.

Disclaimer: I'm sure I forgot a plethora of points for both what we liked and what we didn't, but I want to stress that this wasn't a decision that was made lightly. Having a cool mechanic taken away always feels bad, and we try to avoid it as much as possible, but there are some rare times when we believe that it's the right thing to do. There may be a point in time when we can revisit his kit and add some mastery somewhere (or even make his items cooler now that players have more experience with that particular system), but for now he's likely in a reasonable spot for at least some time.

What would you guys find cool as a replacement assuming that you couldn't get unstoppable back on his W?

for me, Ornn W was what made Ornn... Ornn. I will never pick him up again after this, because it was an odd mechanic to learn, then it became rewarding and unique once you learned it. Ppl just needed to learn how to play against him the same way you have to wait for tryne ult to end to kill him. Or give a clear visual or sound that the CC has been blocked.

Ornn became like every other champ without that mechanic. You could have nerf everthing else to the ground, but the unstoppable is what gave ornn his identity.

RiotRiot MapleNectarMar 15, 201814 votes

I understand your sentiment regarding identity, though feel like the Tryndamere example falls a bit flat for me. When Tryn ults I'm given a number of options that have meaningful impacts on his efficacy during his ult. I/my team can cc him, we can exhaust him, we can run from him etc, and if we don't have any of those options at our disposal, that means you likely built the wrong team comp/took the wrong summoners against him. For Ornn I feel it was a different case, though am certainly open to being challenged. When you say people just needed to learn to play against him, what was the primary counterplay that you feel was present during his W?

I personally didn't play much Ornn, though several members of the team had hundreds of games on him collectively, so I can only speak from the playing against case.

DeadUnbornMar 15, 20183 votes

What I hate about that reasoning, is that it never takes blind pick into account. I would wager most people in my region (LAN) play blind picks, and most of the counter options you have given are made during the selection menu, which in blind pick is impossible to respond to. I think there have to be options in game to deal with characters like yi, et al in game even if your team comp is still the most optimal counter to them.

**You do have these to some extent for sure **(deaths dance, randuins and such) but in other cases, the frustration is just too high, and maybe adding items that counter those specific pain points, even if they are not very gold efficient, could be a major improvement to the game.

Examples:

An item that gives mr and armor with a refund mana passive, but builds into nothing afterwards:

Users: Squishy mages that are getting rofl stomped by zed, lb, fizz, katarina and yasuo

An item that shares its passive with zhonias (like hextech items) but gives you health, ap and armor ... for when asssasins/ adc's are one clicking you (again item shouldn't be as efficient as say, zhonias or the like)

Votable JesterMar 15, 20186 votes

The game isn't balanced around blind pick. Blind pick is logically the most casual way (aside from ARAM) to play against other humans.

If the enemy last picks something that destroys your entire team comp, that's your team's fault for leaving such a gaping hole in your plan.

Electro522Mar 15, 201826 votes

The Unstoppable was his identity?

Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with you there. The identity of a champion is what you think of when you think of them off the top of your head.

Darius - Lane bully that REALLY likes to fight you Garen - Spin to win Zac - super long range engage, and knockups for days Jhin - Long range burst damage

etc....etc...

The first thing that comes to mind for Ornn is not "Unstoppable tank that can walk through Veigar E". No, his identity is that he can engage on you from half a screen away with a giant Ram to your face, and he can build his own items.

I'm not arguing the decision behind removing the Unstoppable from his W...........but saying it was his entire identity is pretty ridiculous.

IllabetheFeb 13, 20191 votes

Here's the problem with what you just said:

Veigar's wall lasts longer than Ornn's W. What Ornn's W did in that exchange: If the Veigar pre-cast his W at the position Ornn would have hit the wall, it gave Ornn a chance to be missed by W.

That's it. If Veigar waited, and cast his W .5 second into the Wall, he was still guaranteed to hit everything when Ornn's W ended and the Wall's stun resumed.

It's scary that you guys talk like Unstoppable on a directional champ that self CC's himself is a "CC immunity." It's not. It's a CC delayer. Which is overwritten by his own self imposed CC.

Illâoi Evê SiônMar 15, 20187 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Nrb6qpge,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2018-03-15T20:51:39.020+0000)

What would you guys find cool as a replacement assuming that you couldn't get unstoppable back on his W?

A Rioter taking a look at Twisted Treeline.

RiotRiot MapleNectarMar 15, 20189 votes

Do you have a list of things you'd like looked at/fixed on TT? My team doesn't own the mode anymore, but if there's specific things that would make the mode that much more fun it'd be much easier to justify the time investment.

FlemmanMar 15, 201819 votes

Corner the dev responsible for the mastery point system so he finally allow us to earn S token on the map, the halve mastery point is already enough to punish us for not liking playing 5v5 as the majority as the playerbase [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Illâoi Evê SiônMar 15, 20187 votes

Oh, uhm, I do. Thank you.

Bug-wise there's a bug where if you Smite before ~1:30 minutes, Smite is reset to a 15 second cooldown.

There's a currently a dominating playstyle called the Hyper Carry comp that is centered around the Timeworn Relic Shield line. It's extremely unfun to play against, non-interactive and has created very toxic behavior where if you don't pick it in champion select, your teammates will assume the game is lost, grief, feed or in the best case scenario dodge. Many of TTs players miss being able to play normal comps.

Those are the two most impactful things I can think of. Fixing the bug might take more time, but nerfing Relic Shield shouldn't?

Otherwise, the shop range is centered around the shop keeper and not the base (if it could be both that would be awesome). Anything else would probably take more work than is worth investing for you.

RiotRiot MapleNectarMar 15, 20183 votes

what is it about the relic shield line that makes it so optimal? Gold sharing? The hp/healing? The vision?

Illâoi Evê SiônMar 15, 20183 votes

There are no wards in Twisted Treeline. It's Timeworn Face of the Mountain with the battery quest and shield active.

The whole point of the Hyper Carry Comp is to funnel a ton of experience and gold into the Carry asap. Depending on the carry, you start with Targon's Brace on the Support and Relic Shield + a Jungle Item on the Carry. You clear out the Jungle together and then go top lane. Spoils of War allows you to quickly farm a wave and head back into the Jungle for the next rotation (farming speed).

The heal from the item allows you to ignore poke and any extraneous damage from the Jungle (sustain).

These two things combined mean you don't have to interact with the enemy at all, except to deny them farm if you want to or get some more gold from Bandit (non-interactiveness?).

The gold sharing gives your Support enough gold to still be impactful even if they're underleved and it gives the Carry a whole lot of unearned gold income, too (too much gold generation). Whenever you trade or are near dying minions, Bandit gives you extra gold and you have the constant GP10 from the two items (reliable gold generation).

Then they both spike in power with the quest completion in the mid game. This at about 11 -- 13 minutes for the Support and 16 -- 19 minutes for the carry, which gives them a whole lot more tankiness from the Battery Shield (ignore poke and burst long enough for the Support's defensive features to kick in). What's worse is that this is at the same time as other powerspikes (first or second important item, level 6, etc).

Overall, the item just offers everything the Carry and Support need to be secure and strong at all stages of the game.

itsCHANCEyoMar 15, 20185 votes

5 Year Treeline player here :D For me, the decision to remove the relic line (and other support items) from Summoners Rift but leave on TT was a strange decision. Not only does the relic shield create strange problems such as the gold-sharing and quick clearing of jungle creeps when two champs take the item. It is also created an issue with the "Frost Queens Claim" line that because it was left as an option as well as the new Twin Shadows being re-added to the map, this enables two items with the spooky ghost active. Surely not intended... right? I say just kill off ALL the old support items completely from EVERY map. That way the support-hyper carry comps can die in peace. :D RITO PLZZ! Thanks for the posts Maple!

also nerf darius... just kidding ..................not kidding.

-itsCHANCEyo :D

BlueHeartMar 16, 20183 votes

it legit killed Twisted treeline for me, supports are a problem in 5v5s, now have a Leona peeling for any hypercarry and then the APC doesnt matter, for a gamemode that should be centered around 1v1 and constant jungle pressure, the meta being a 2v2 or even worse a 2v1 top with the junglers just being hypercarries that outlevel everybody kills the game mode. item 3193 doesnt even get its full effect half the time, and not earning champ mastery on a map that can be even harder for your champ is just kinda like, why does this gamemode exist?

the blue moongodMar 16, 20186 votes

Alright, my best analysis of the situation as a Treeline enthusiast:

Primarily the safety of having two people walk back and forth between jungle and lane together makes this strategy optimal. The buddy system (hyper scaler with smite + disengage support) leads to a boring farm game of moving between jungle and lane to farm until the equilibrium is broken post 25 minutes usually. Relic shield is bought by both members of the duo lane to maximise gold gain.

The fact that gold and experience from jungle camps is not shared also means that you can have a level 6 Yasuo walking next to a level 2 Alistar while a solo laner in the same game might be level 4.

The best way to counter this strategy is by running it yourself. Counterjungling is way too risky and the duo lane doesn't usually stay in lane for longer than two waves (In fact, if you're running a jungler against an experienced hypercarry comp, their duo lane might invade your jungle while the lane is pushed and stealing camps with smite while your top lane is locked under their turret). If you have neither scaling potential nor a significant early lead midgame will be hell against this strat.

The second best way to counter this strategy is picking a champion that can 1v2 in lane and a ganker that can move over the big middle wall. The issue here is that jungle ganks on treeline require much more precise coordination (because you're ganking a 1v2 lane to make it a 2v2 instead of the numbers advantage you get on SR), which leads to people picking the safer and** easier **option even though it is extremely boring.

If you asked me how to disincentivize duo lane hyperfarming strategies it would probably involve a straight gold efficiency nerf to relic shield. The other support items are not an issue. Those at least leave some room for interaction with opponents. However, most likely I would let jungle camps split experience to nearby team members of the killer again. This would

Critical points that support this strategy

safety in numbers
the effectiveness of underlevelled supports
the gold efficiency of relic shield and it's ability to be bought on carries
the difficulty of ganking the walled off lanes (making the outer turrets flimsier could also help)
the proximity of lanes and camps

seeing as none of these are easily changed besides relic shield, I recommend starting there for short term.

An interesting idea would be making counter jungling safer by adding an extra brush as hiding spot between the base wall and altar on both sides, but that would require some testing.

Finally, I'd like to thank you for showing some interest in Treeline. Truth be told, with long standing issues like these we're feeling a little neglected. Thanks for stopping by though

[slayer-jinx-catface]

~~Also relic shield doesn't give vision on treeline, it gives a shield~~

Illâoi Evê SiônMar 20, 20181 votes

Can you pass on a 'Thank You' to whoever made the changes to Support Items in Twisted Treeline? Or if it was you, THANK YOU very much. I know we can be annoying begging for stuff like this, but it makes us happy when it does come through.

[slayer-jinx-wink]

Tik115Mar 15, 20182 votes

I think unstoppable was fine, what wasn't fine was when you decided to change the damage from % current to % max, that's what turned him into an absurd mess, You can't give a champion the unstoppable effect AND % Max health damage that's two massive power points on a single Skill.

As for Idea replacements I'll say a few possible ones

Provides up to 4 stacks, each stack adds a 10% slow
CC increase isn't consumed on the first hit
Higher level = CC is longer
W provides stacks which burn the enemy/shreds their Armour

PandaNator43Mar 15, 20182 votes

Awesome response, thanks for taking the time.

I feel like Ornn's Living Forge fantasy falls a little flat. I don't find a lot of satisfaction from buying items in lane, and if I ever need to recall it almost feels like a punishment for not taking advantage of his passive.

The masterwork items just add passive stats which is a little lackluster.

This is probably to anti-interaction, and too close to garen/malphite, but out of combat he could "reforge his equipment": so out of combat he generates some stat bonus that decay from taking damage. Although he must be a crappy blacksmith if his armor is wearing out after a few minutes in combat.... Maybe completing a masterwork item could make this stat bonus permanent.

Separate idea: Perhaps he has to accumulate material that he can use to forge his masterwork items. the material could drop at random locations (Bard chimes), scavenged from dead minions (Zoe balloons, Gangplank SS), farmed from key areas (Skarner passive). Allowing the enemy team to deny Ornn his material could allow some more power to be put into his masterwork items.

It could be cool if there was more interaction within his own team when Ornn "gives" his teammates the masterwork items. Effort to value there would be tough. I can't think of a way to do it without a whole new system, but for one ability on one champ, idk.

The Living Forge theme is super cool, but he comes off more as just a Fire God.

The Arctic OtterMar 15, 20182 votes

Could you try moving the shield to his E and restore the unstoppable W? That way the counterplay is that he is most vulnerable to damage during his W. The fact that he can't move himself makes him a sitting target for skillshots. It would also mean that he's not putting his shield up constantly during wave clearing. It may also give a reason to max E some games instead.

Can you also have his W work with "Quickcast with Indicator"? I would like to be able to aim my fire before committing myself to walking in one direction for 1.5 seconds.

Thanks for being open for discussion.

Zacaroni SaladMar 15, 20182 votes

What about giving Ornn items that are only available to him through his Living Forge passive? Like maybe some items that give him a unique effect. It never really made sense to me that a demi-god of forging can only make items everyone else can buy in the shop and just "upgrade" other items. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

IllabetheFeb 13, 20191 votes

Several problems with these assumptions:

Likes:

There are very few actual interactions where a .75 second unstoppable actually mitigates CC in a way that is productive for Ornn. Yasuo's Q is the main one. There are a few CC that Pull/Shove/Hook, but most are not Unstoppable ready, and cast extremely fast.
It wasn't CC immunity. It was CC Delay until after a period in which Ornn couldn't do anything except walk directionally. In other words, Ornn is still CC'd during his "Unstoppable;" He's cc'd by himself. That IS a window to abuse him. And it used to last 1.75 seconds, making it a very operable window to hit him hard, and for your CC to act after W was over. Don't call it immunity when Ornn is locked out of any action, and the CC resumes after it is over.

Dislikes:

It wasn't a low cooldown until very late game.
Again...... W is directional, so saying "he's walking toward you" is the same as saying, "You're too naive to get out of the way and not take that last Bellow tick."
No you weren't. Again.... You move to the side of the flames and Ornn can do nothing to stop you.....
Overloaded ability? Maybe we should discuss Jax with Shojin and Leap Spam (slam). Or, you know..... his Counterstrike which both Dodges oncoming attacks with Shojin's + auto renews, and does significant damage after absorbing all those autos. You wanted to talk overloaded.... well.... there's that.
I'm sorry but I've rarely EVER had trouble fighting an Ornn in any incarnation of his kit. I learned him easy. I mastery 7'd him the day after he was released. Maybe I know him well enough to actually counter him every time I see him.

BisaknospMar 15, 20186 votes

he also isnt fun to play against they should make his ult dodgeable before they even consider buffing him

T4underboltMar 15, 20185 votes

Oh wow. "A tank is more close to being balanced than broken. It is so unfun to play him because I actually have to use brain to play him and not brainlessly mash buttons for free win". All it is to say in that matter. Now it's time to nerf hard all other tanks.

Smitty ManjensenMar 15, 20188 votes

{quoted}

Oh wow. "A tank is more close to being balanced than broken. It is so unfun to play him because I actually have to use brain to play him and not brainlessly mash buttons for free win". All it is to say in that matter. Now it's time to nerf hard all other tanks.

Ornn has the second lowest win rate on top, he isn't close to balanced, he's close to unplayability.

RevaliMar 15, 20184 votes

6 second nerf was justified as someone who also plays a fair amount of ornn, the unstoppable part I agree with, should be there. it was nice to be able to outplay someone like say jayce when you can read their thundering blow or yasuos knockup.

HethaleanMar 15, 20185 votes

I mean... he was unstoppable which i think is an awesome skill expression. I mean I thought that Ornn paid for that unstoppable with simultaneous uncontrollable. Is it really that powerful now that he can't put move inputs in there? Was unstoppable really an issue? I don't play him, but I loved that he had that small thing.

KythersMar 15, 20183 votes

ornn was never fun to play against though

BlanchefMar 16, 20183 votes

Oorn is the only top i play and i still find it fun to play... it just requires more skills. The later must be the thing you lack, not fun.

GigglesOMar 15, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Bellows Breath not having "unstoppable" anymore just dramatically lowers his skill ceiling.

You act like all of their targeted changes towards casuals isn't just to lower skill ceiling. Why do you think everything is one shot killing everything else. The "Ultimate kill fantasy"

Risen29Mar 15, 20182 votes

He's definitely not fun anymore. Being unstoppable is a key thematic part of what makes him feel like an ancient unstoppable powerhouse. It also thematically fits with him being able to break down m walls. He was a juggernaut that just keeps going forward despite what you throw at him.

If I had any refunds left I would throw ornn and his thunderlords skin in the garbage, because I wont be playing him anytime soon.

StovePanFeb 13, 20191 votes

Rito Needs to revert back to the old ornn were he had shield it sucks because facing other matchs up with champions that do alot of poke like teemo and jace is not fun at all or even dr mundo. At least add the shield and lower the brittle damage. PLEASEEEEE Ornn

IllabetheFeb 13, 20191 votes

You don't start W on new Ornn. You start Q. Great Scaling and semi low cooldown. Take Manaflow Band and toss Q through a minion wave about to die and hit a champ, and you'll make your lane twice as sustainable.

The only reason I'm not playing him right now is generally..... mage carry more. He's fine. Games I DO play with him I get a 8-12 KDA. You just need to think outside the "Tank only" box and figure out ways to compensate mobiity and get to 13 faster.