This poppy rework article is full of inaccuracies

Orenin··39 votes·7,244 views
News of Legends

So I read this article, which made several points about why Poppy is probably going to be reworked. The only thing is, some of the points are a bit off the mark. The real reason they are reworking her is probably that she is unpopular, but as a poppy main seeing all of this slander against my favorite champion annoys me greatly.

Quoting from the article:

  • However, Poppy isn’t exactly handing out counterplay tips. Her main cons – an abysmally small mana pool and lack of wave-clear – don’t give enemies an opportunity to abuse; they just keep Poppy toned down so she doesn’t dominate.

This is absolutely untrue. Poppy has clear weaknesses that are not hard to exploit, and they are fairly obvious. This article makes it sound like no waveclear and low mana are trivial, but this is not true. Minion waves will constantly be pushed into your turret, making it possible for the enemy champion to roam freely, and putting damage on the turret. Her mana pool is so low that poppy can literally run out of mana before doing enough damage to kill the enemy champion, if they have any form of sustain. Of course, in a 1v1 she would have the damage, but again, poppy can only go in at set times(determined by the minion waves which she cannot clear) so invariably the opponent has ample time to sustain back up. This weak early game is a big weakness. These weaknesses are the whole reason she is not played. If she were dominating, people would be playing her more.

In addition to these, Poppy's other weakness is that she has several bad match-ups. Anybody with range counters her, because her only gapcloser(which costs more mana than her hammer blow) does minimal damage and pushes her into the enemy minion wave(Assuming they dont decide to randomly walk next to a wall). If poppy goes even in laning, then she has done her job.

Also, Poppy also has extremely poor pathing compared to other champions. She is the only champion I have played where you can literally permanently get stuck between a minion and a wall, until you kill the minion. This doesn't happen every game, but it happens frequently enough. even without this, you will miss more cs from being randomly pathed around than you would on another champion.

  • The main offenders are her passive and ultimate. Blocking chunks of damage innately and constantly is just raw statistical power. The enemy gets hardly any feedback, visual or number-wise, when spells hit Poppy for halved damage. It’s not really a passive you can play around in a teamfight or even in lane, unless you’ve true damage or low-cooldown spells.

The enemy knows when poppy was saved by her passive. About every other game I hear "Poppy passive OP". If the problem is that her passive doesn't give the enemy feedback, then implement that feedback. The passive itself is very unique and well designed.

  • Worse, still, this passive defines Poppy as a bruiser, meaning her appeal lies in bad design.

Can I please slap whoever wrote this. The passive doesn't define poppy as anything. Barring a veigar ultimate, this passive ussually only comes into use when poppy is less than 200-300 HP and about to die. If the numbers fall right, it can practically be nullified and not matter. It ussually gives her an extra autoattack or 2 of survivability, no more. Her kit is what defines her as a bruiser, not her passive.

  • Lategame Poppy

Lategame poppy is strong. Not dominating, but strong. The problem is that when she uses her ultimate, the counterplay is to simply walk away from her. If the carry is not near a wall, she has a hard time killing them without ignite. In addition, whoever she ults can either CC her(if you ult the support), or do massive damage to her(if you ult someone else). This means poppy has to be very careful about when she goes in. The question is always "Can I catch up to the fleeing carry and do enough damage to kill them". Poppy doesn't have insane amounts of damage, and she has to stick to the carry for at least long enough to deliver 2 hammer blows(4~ second cooldown) if she wants to kill them unaided. Thinking about when to ult and who to ult is an important lategame decision that will test a player strategically.

  • Diplomatic Immunity reminds me a bit of Magic The Gathering’s Black Lotus, in that almost every Champion can replace their ultimate with Poppy’s.*

One can make an arguement that x champions ult could be swapped with y champion, and in some cases it's true. But poppy's ult suits her very well. The ult is very well named, since poppy is a diplomat, and diplomats have diplomatic immunity. The ult is very clever and goes with her kit.

TL;DR: Please don't take the unique champion poppy is and turn her into a generic bruiser. Her current design is not bad. At the moment, she is fairly balanced, has exploitable weaknesses, and has counterplay options. All poppy needs is some QoL buffs, such as improving her pathing around minions.

If there is a rework just plz keep her Q the way it is. hitting someone in the face is what makes poppy fun.

97 Comments

Kingsgrave38 votes

Poppy's R is never used for its intended purpose Poppy's W is just a bunch of random stats thrown on there for no real reason Poppy's Passive is a lot of invisible power

Her football tackle is iconic and interesting, the rest of her kit could use some thematic work

Kitten of Evil4 votes

I think her Q and E are fine, and I think her ult is iconic... it's just too long a period of invulnerability. Basically 3 Kayle ults in a row.

Kingsgrave4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MnU1tyGi,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-02-04T21:14:27.479+0000)

I think her Q and E are fine, and I think her ult is iconic... it's just too long a period of invulnerability. Basically 3 Kayle ults in a row.

Her R is Iconic maybe, but it gives a damage spike against a target and she almost always uses it to ignore the person she ulted. Very odd.

Her Q is mostly bland and uninteresting, could be a lot cooler of a skill.

Her E is probably the most iconic part about her and I wouldn't be surprised if they made it a skillshot and amped it up to 11.

Kitten of Evil5 votes

Yeah, she only uses it to kill her target if it's mid-game and she intends to towerdive. For teamfights, though:

  1. Ult the support
  2. ???
  3. Profit!
HeartOfTheCards1 votes

I honestly don't know about ulting the main person that peels. Should probably ult the assassin whos going to be too busy diving your back line. But who gives a shit about them. You're poppy.

CataclysmCrash4 votes

{quoted}

Poppy's R is never used for its intended purpose Poppy's W is just a bunch of random stats thrown on there for no real reason Poppy's Passive is a lot of invisible power

Her football tackle is iconic and interesting, the rest of her kit could use some thematic work

Really.

The most iconic thing you get from Poppy's kit is a body check.

Poppy is a self buffing paladin. Her kit is thematically about golden auras and glowing shit.

Also, why are we arbitrarily deciding what an invulnerability spell is designed for? That's like saying Kayles ult should only be used to stop her from dieing rather than ignore the burst in the first place.

But thematically if they rework Poppy she needs to be a fuckin golden paragon with a massive ass hammer.

Gray Fanchon4 votes

I think it's just because all the golden auras and glowing shit are passive, and not always super obvious in the effect they're having. Her W might be giving me a boost to armor and attack stats, but I'm not going to notice that the way I'll notice slamming someone into a wall and stunning them. I've been picking up Poppy and honestly enjoying her, but I never got the "aura paladin" vibe. I play her to slam people into things and blow up their kneecaps. :D

Edit: Oh! And, well, obviously the ult is intended for you to duel someone and blow them up, no questions asked. Why would she have immunity to everyone else and boosted damage towards her target otherwise?

Orenin6 votes

She does need that long to make an attempt on the enemy carry though. She doesn't have insane damage, and she ussually needs at least 2 hammerblows to have a chance of killing them. And, if they are not near a wall(which is ussually the case), they can walk away. If poppy overpursues, she will die.

AetherKingdom2 votes

It's better than Kayle ult because you can't even be CC'd

lDontLiftIcarry3 votes

Yes you can. you ult the support and recent supports are overloaded as shit. you can usually get CClocked for at least half the duration of your ult. If you're not running merc treads ona cahmpion with a long CD basically melee range gap closer you're probably doing it wrong.

Kitten of Evil4 votes

A good poppy won't ult the support if it's Leona. They'll ult whoever has the least damage and CC. Remember, her passive makes her not care as much about damage already.

lDontLiftIcarry1 votes

leona isn';t a recent support kiddo. She's not an issue if you dodge E or R she's just as immoible as every other melee that isn't yolomcgapcloserswag2015Iclosed1kdistance

Kitten of Evil3 votes

Yeah, I'm aware she's not recent. But I assumed what you meant was "don't ult a support that's got tons of CC"

lDontLiftIcarry2 votes

Nah I ment don't ult a support that has CC thats basically unavoidable. Like ulting an ali would be stupid because he's going to headbutt you and it can't possibely be outplayed you will be knocked away and zoned out of the fight.

Leo has skill shots. completely avoidable if done correctly and you're going to be running ghost as poppy 9/10 times If leo isn't standing by the adc because she's garbage at supporting the adc dies. Simple as that.

Someone like thresh or nami is the broken overloaded support, i ment, with basically unavoidable CC both have slows that make it so their other skillshots are garunteed hits on anyone - slow into hard cc. Basically. Leo is "land 1 skill shot to chain with other skill shots or land nothing at all"

Thats what I ment by recent overloaded supports.

Riot seems to remove more depth from this game every year.

Oh well. I'll still play. But I'll always bitch at riot until the game returns to the endless pit of depth I fell in love with. I'm a passionate gamer and everything I do bleeds compassion and love for my game and the bettering of the game itself.

These recent champions and changes are just disgraces to the design riot used to put into champions or at least try to put into them.

Ya release leblanc was shit. But look at her kit its fucking fun as shit. I've had my fair share of leblanc games where I decieve mid passive proc and send the ghost out to the middle of nowhere while they chase it. It's fun as fuck to get that sneeky bastard shit eating grin feeling.

Reikken1 votes

I laugh every time a Poppy ults me and tries to kill someone else while I'm playing Rylai's Annie. and it happens so often too

not a starburst5 votes

She's a lot like old Sion.

Old Sion's kit was a weird mess that was confusing and torn between AD and AP, with a passive that has weird interactions and a ton of hidden power. The only thing that redeemed Sion, and the only thing that keeps Poppy from complete irrelevance, is their ults. Both had kit-breaking ults that forced Riot to keep a tight lid on the rest of their kits, lest they become the newest toxic pick.

I'm pretty pumped for the rework, by the way. They did a great job with Sion, and I want to see what they do with Poppy.

Kuroi8615 votes

she is fairly balanced

... I cannot believe I actually heard that. That is seriously like calling Urgot or Taric balanced...

gubigubi13 votes

Not saying this is necessarily a bad thing but poppy is going to get karmaed. What that means is all the poppy mains will more than likely absolutely hate it. Everyone else will think it is a good change.

Gray Fanchon3 votes

How do you figure? Riot's admitted Karma - and Trundle - isn't something they want to repeat in terms of reworks. Y'know, that whole losing signature aspects of the character?

edit: Actually, no I see what you're saying based off this thread. People who've gotten used to Poppy's kit and grown to like it will miss it, but she'll be a better character overall.

chumbler2 votes

[{quoted}](name=viva la me,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MnU1tyGi,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-02-04T20:43:28.397+0000)

Not saying this is necessarily a bad thing but poppy is going to get karmaed. What that means is all the poppy mains will more than likely absolutely hate it. Everyone else will think it is a good change.

Nah, she's going to get Cassiopeia-ed, not Karma-ed. Karma's rework has at least some value and was starting from a very flawed champion. Cassiopeia's rework took a champion who was totally fine apart from bugs, dumpstered her, was given idiotic buffs to become barely passable, and then was dumpstered again for literally the exact thing they claimed they were fixing with the rework. That's what would happen to Poppy.

Poppy doesn't need a rework, just like most champions who got reworks didn't need them. It just a thing Riot does to distract people from the fact that they aren't fixing the actual problems in the game.

Oh, and the complaints about her passive are stupid, because it doesn't affect dots unless the caster is fed enough that it doesn't matter, but that's not Riot's idiotic definition of counterplay. Oh, and dots are apparently anti-fun according to the garbage Cass rework.

Kitten of Evil10 votes

Eh, they nerfed her early-game and made laning as her miserable simply because she has a godly late game. That's riot balance for you. And, like they said, it's her passive and ultimate which are the culprits here. Her passive makes her deceptively tanky even with no defensive items, and the only solution to her ultimate is run away unless you're the person who she ulted (i.e. the support).

Thinking about when to ult and who to ult is an important lategame decision that will test a player strategically.

Not really. You basically always ult the support, because (unless it's Leona) that's who has the least damage/CC. Not much of a strategic decision in a teamfight, really.

Riot has decided that long periods (6-8 seconds) of fully-functional invulnerability are unhealthy for the game, but that's precisely what Poppy's ult gives her. Kayle, on the other hand, has 2-3 seconds of fully-functional invulnerability for a teammate, and even that's considered a very solid ultimate. Lissandra has 2.5 seconds of invulnerability but she can't move or cast spells during that time. Vlad has 2-second untargetability and Fizz has 0.75 second untargetability, but neither is invulnerable during that time (DoTs and leashes still have effect).

Kingsgrave3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MnU1tyGi,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-02-04T21:06:27.082+0000)

Eh, they nerfed her early-game and made laning as her miserable simply because she has a godly late game. That's riot balance for you. And, like they said, it's her passive and ultimate which are the culprits here. Her passive makes her deceptively tanky even with no defensive items, and the only solution to her ultimate is run away unless you're the person who she ulted (i.e. the support).

Not really. You basically always ult the support, because (unless it's Leona) that's who has the least damage/CC. Not much of a strategic decision in a teamfight, really.

Riot has decided that long periods (6-8 seconds) of fully-functional invulnerability are unhealthy for the game, but that's precisely what Poppy's ult gives her. Kayle, on the other hand, has 2-3 seconds of fully-functional invulnerability for a teammate, and even that's considered a very solid ultimate. Lissandra has 2.5 seconds of invulnerability but she can't move or cast spells during that time. Vlad has 2-second untargetability and Fizz has 0.75 second untargetability, but neither is invulnerable during that time (DoTs and leashes still have effect).

Her passive also punishes her for building defensively.

Orenin4 votes

Actually, a lot of the time it's better to ult someone without cc even if they have some damage. If you ult thresh you will have a very hard time reaching the carry. Same with most supports.

Linna Excel6 votes

I agree that Poppy isn't as terrible as people make her out to be. I think half of the problem is people rarely see her and don't really know the matchup against her well. I think if her Q did physical damage (with built in armor pen) instead of magic damage, that's all the change she'd need. AD poppy can still have that big spammable AP spike and it's harder to itemize against her mixed damage.

This article makes it sound like no waveclear and low mana are trivial, but this is not true.

No waveclear is awful, especially when laning against someone like nidalee who can harass you constantly. The mana issue is worse. I'll get something like ER on her because she burns through it very quickly when using her skills. I think these two things together make it so that she's a hypercarry in that her early game is terrible. That's when you abuse her.

The enemy knows when poppy was saved by her passive.

Agreed. I mean since when does armor give feedback... oh yeah, those damage numbers that pop up are smaller than they should be.

NinjaFifer6 votes

Her ultimate is the number one reason why she needs a rework. It's impossible to balance around a champion that can just actively not be affected by ANYTHING from 4 of 5 enemies for 6-8 seconds, while ALSO amplifying your damage by 20-40% against that 5th champion. Even ignoring the damage amp, being able to ignore everything from 4 champions of your choice is just poor design. There's no counterplay, and the duration is so long that you can't justify running away until it ends.

Kayle's ult is similar, but only lasts 2-3 seconds, and doesn't block CC, but is targeted. You can actually do something about it, or, at worst, wait it out.

Poppy just creates a situation almost every teamfight where the only rational choice is to ignore her or run away from her for 6-8 seconds. That's the only major problem with her kit, but, OH MAN IS IT A BIG F-ING PROBLEM.

IwfiKe3qjM5 votes

for Poppy rework...

just left Q and E untouched... (maybe a small number in damage) change on R is fine but not too much... (that's what unique about Poppy I think) don't care for Passive or W... (maybe total change... or it won't be called Rework/Relaunch)

Solidair35 votes

The problem with Poppy is her ult. It gives her a damage steroid against its target, which is who she should be attacking when it's up.

However, this is not the case. This is never the case. Every Poppy that uses it immediately targets the the lowest damage/cc source that cannot stop her, then she dives the most important target and blows them up all the while no one can do anything for SEVERAL seconds.

Sure, there's other unstoppable champions, but their invulnerability lasts MAYBE a second, and is immediately followed by punishment.

With her current ultimate, Poppy CANNOT be allowed to be good. It's just not possible. She creates what riot hates most in 0 counterplay scenarios.

I'm sure she will still thematically be similar, but if her rework quality is anything like Sion, then I'm sure it will even be GOOD.

Mama Soraka4 votes

I don't necessarily like where Poppy is at, but Orenin really does make a strong case for this article being full of it. Poppy

doubleguac4 votes

This is absolutely untrue. Poppy has clear weaknesses that are not hard to exploit, and they are fairly obvious. This article makes it sound like no waveclear and low mana are trivial, but this is not true.

I think you might be misinterpreting the article? Or maybe I'm misinterpreting it.

I don't think he is saying these are trivial weaknesses. I think he's saying that her lack of wave clear and her tiny mana pool or not interactive, dynamic forms of counterplay that both people participate in. They are not fun for either poppy or her opponent. They are just blunt, non-negotiable ways of making her weak in lane.

The passive itself is very unique and well designed.

I will strongly disagree with this. Sure, it's unique, in the sense that it is easily the most powerful passive in the game. it is not well designed in the slightest.

It's just a massive amount of free invisible health, with no gameplay or counterplay on either side. if you're fighting Poppy, you can't "bait it out" or avoid it, or work around it. It's just going to massively reduce any burst damage you deal to her when she's low on health. Are you playing a champion like Garen or Voli who relies on an execute? Tough beans, she will always take 50% damage from it the entire game with no counterplay.

If this effect was tied into an active ability, or if it had a cooldown, or if she had to do something to trigger it, it would be fine. But she doesn't have to do anything. It doesn't change the way she plays. There's no way to "outplay" her passive. It's an unbelievably overpowered passive, and the only reason she gets away with having it is because the rest of her kit is intentionally kept weak to prevent people from playing her often.

SmokingPuffin4 votes

Please don't take the unique champion poppy is and turn her into a generic bruiser.

Do not want generic bruiser. We have way too many samey bruisers.

Do want football tackle to be amazing.

Kinda want mechanics that give her additional strength when her health is lower than the opponent. Seems like a thing she'd do.

Her current design is not bad.

Poppy is the worst designed kit in the game. Let's go over it.

Passive - Obnoxious amounts of power with no associated gameplay, for either her or the opponent. Q - It's k. Just a vanilla damage move. Bleh. W - Press for more stats. Bleh. E - Absolutely fantastic fun. R - What a nightmare. Unclear. Ridiculously powerful. Best used in a nonintuitive and unintended way. Completely breaks designed teamfight mechanics.

If I had my way, the only thing that stays from this kit is the E. You could keep Q, but I think it's a pretty boring button and I'd rather something that isn't just a targeted damage nuke.

PotatoMine4 votes

Your looking at this from the perspective of someone who mains Poppy. How much do you know about Hybrid Ezreal mid, my main? Did you know he has really bad wave clear? Most people do, but did you know that he out scales most mids? Did you know that a massive part of his counter play is to position where he cannot land shift? Did you know he has a Poppy like late game? Did you know that flux's hit box is longer than the animation? There are a lot of things that are simple to me, that I see clearly as a hybrid Ez main. But are not at all clear to the people I play against. You see the weakness of Poppy clearly because you play her, but you do not see what others see. I have been playing for years and still am confused on how Poppy's ult works because I have attacked Poppy's who I thought are ulting and I've done DMG to them. And lack of wave clear and a low mana pool does not present clear counter play. It's not don't get hit by a skill shot, it's not don't get close to her it's abstract weaknesses that though very real are not seen. Same with the power given from her passive and the DMG her ult gives to her target. Her W is just a pile of stats that gives little counter play and has right at no interaction, and the cheery on top is the fact that her Q scales off max HP, though that does have reason.

Then as an enemy how do you get repaid for falling prey to not abusing her abstract weaknesses? With one of the most powerful late game monsters, who seams to have even less weaknesses. He passive, W and ult my he amazingly hard to kill and it's not clear why. Poppy can build a lot of DMG and still be very tanky. Bottom line is the reason you don't see the problems with her is because you play her, you don't play against her. And even when you do play against her you know what to do because you play her.

You know why people say "Poppy's passive is OP" in chat? Because it is not apparent and does not give good feed back. We are in a fight, and the entire lane my spells have done 200 DMG to you, your at 400 life and I have 3 spells, 200 DMG each. I got you low with autos because and have not relyzed how little my spells do to you now. So BAME I all in you, hit you with all 3 spells, expecting to have more than enough DMG to kill you but to my amazement you live at a sliver of HP and return your combo, killing me. I look at death recap floored and then it hits me what had happened. People don't say "Poppy's passive is OP" in chat because they know about it, they say it because they don't know about it. It's not tell after the fight that the see what happened, and quite frankly if you think that's a well designed passive you don't understand what clarity means. To you it was clear, to you you knew all along that another spell rotation would be reduced by her passive and you are safe, in fact that's the only reason you positioned the way you did. I know this feeling very well as hybrid Ezreal, I get comments too about his power because people don't know how much DMG he does. People don't expect me to full to dead you(with ignite) as hybrid Ezreal, they are used to AD Ez. However unlike Poppy they can still doge my skill shots, they may not know just how much DMG I do, but they do know they need to not get hit by a skill shot. Poppy needs work, and hopefully her rework will let you still enjoy what you love about her, while fixing her problems.

Only Play Darius1 votes

Champs with mobility, like Ezreal, are the ones with truly no counterplay.

"So this champion is going to come attack you, and when he realizes he is outmatched he is going start walking to a wall and if you aren't mobile that's just too bad. Oh wait, this champion went out of his way to pick a fight with you, and because he doesn't know your abilities and didn't check your items, he didn't realize he would lose until after he started attacking you. But everyone deserves second chances, which is why he gets to survive if he can reach that wall in x amount of seconds. Also damage is OP, which is why we are going to nerf non-mobile high damage champs to the point where they are incapable of killing that champ in x amount of seconds, but at the same time we are going to buff their defenses so that way it is defined as a rebalance instead of a nerf (cough coughGaren) ."

You should go play an immobile champ (I define immobile as a champ that cannot pass a wall without flash). Because you don't have a flash with 10sec cooldown, you really learn how to assess a situation and learn combat patterns before you pick a fight. It will be satisfying, I promise your strategic skill in the game will improve significantly.

And then you will see how infuriating it is to be screwed out of a kill when someone absolutely insists on picking a fight with you, then realizes that you are capable of killing them without breaking a sweat, so they spend the next five seconds walking toward a wall, and if you can't kill them before they reach that wall well then it's your fault for not knowing how to fight.

Immobile champs are punished with death for walking into a bad situation. Meanwhile if an unskilled player fails to bother learning abilities or checking items, he gets no punishment for making a terrible decision because he can flash through a wall every 10 seconds, while the skilled player he tried to pick a fight with gets punished by not getting a kill he rightfully deserves, simply because he is an immobile champ.

Kitten of Evil1 votes

Depends on the champion and the situation. If Malzahar finds himself overwhelmed by a single enemy? Ult. If Lux is being chased? Q-snare. I do think that mobility should be inversely proportional to CC. You have gap closers and blinks out the ass? No CC for you then. Oh, you're completely immobile? Okay, you can have a snare and a slow. Currently this is not always the case -- Gnar and Leblanc on the one hand, poor Mordekaiser on the other.

4nth0l0gy3 votes

As someone who has played as squishy champions and has had their entire team's existence nullified by poppy as she walks up, does her combo twice, and kills me within the duration of her ult, on many occasions: Poppy's ult is bullshit.

Furthermore, Poppy's appointment to the League is bullshit because of her conflicting identities. A. She's a weaponsmith. Nothing to speak of in combat training. Yet, b. she's a fucking hardcore warrior, randomly, also. Admittedly, one line of lore would change that, but it's not there.

Economicz1 votes

That's totally your fault for not shutting her down while she absolutely sucks for the first half hour. Then late game you managed to not escape a bruiser RUNNING at you.
If she did her combo that means she slammed you into the wall because you suck at positioning. Deserved to get wrecked.

4nth0l0gy1 votes

I mean, of course SOMEONE is going to say exactly what you said here, that it's the individual player's fault rather than the game's design. And sure, I'd be willing to agree with you, if it was an occurrence limited to me. But it's not.

Poppy is bullshit because she doesn't interact with other players. She's kind of like how Olaf was before he was Olaf'd, except not only does she have a speed boost with her W, she also has a gapcloser. I'm not saying she's broken, because she's not; I'm saying she's not fair. She's like the kid who calls a bunch of bullshit rules whenever he's the Ace in the foursquare diamond, rules that kind of ruin the game.

Economicz1 votes

[{quoted}](name=CC Shepherd,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MnU1tyGi,comment-id=000900010000,timestamp=2015-02-05T18:19:50.374+0000)

I mean, of course SOMEONE is going to say exactly what you said here, that it's the individual player's fault rather than the game's design. And sure, I'd be willing to agree with you, if it was an occurrence limited to me. But it's not.

Poppy is bullshit because she doesn't interact with other players. She's kind of like how Olaf was before he was Olaf'd, except not only does she have a speed boost with her W, she also has a gapcloser. I'm not saying she's broken, because she's not; I'm saying she's not fair. She's like the kid who calls a bunch of bullshit rules whenever he's the Ace in the foursquare diamond, rules that kind of ruin the game.

lol blame the game and not skill. tell you jungler to gank against poppy once and kill her. she's the weakest laner in the game and it's an auto loss for her once she's behind

4nth0l0gy1 votes

I think you're missing the point of what I'm saying. I'm not saying she's broken or OP. I don't care if you can win against her or not, I'm not concerned with her win rate. I'm saying she's unfun to play against, because you can't "play" against her. I've beaten Poppies. I just don't have fun doing it.

Jungle Lux God3 votes

Having a minion wave constantly pushed up to your turret is not always a bad thing. If anything, you trade map pressure for free cs, and on a hypercarry like Poppy, that is amazing.

Not to mention that she has one of the best late games in the entire game, excluding infinite stacking mechanics.

Also, what makes Poppy unique is either unhealthy for the game, invisible power, or her football tackle. How could you make her into a bruiser more generic than she already is?

Gray Fanchon3 votes

Actually, Riot's gone on record saying they love her concept and gameplay but felt they executed on it badly. That's why they're taking another pass. I'm sure they wouldn't mind her being more popular. Also, they've said they want to keep her football tackling, diving playstyle. This isn't like Sion where they're intent is to nuke from orbit and pick through the remains, I don't think there's cause to worry that she'll become a different character.

I originally made some points in this post about her gameplay as a player who has picked up Poppy recently and honestly had fun playing her, but other people have already made my points and I don't think you wanna hear them incessantly. :P Don't worry, Riot's had a lot of chances to learn from their mistakes with reworking champions. They like Poppy. It'll work out.

Possta3 votes

Okay, I strongly disagree with what you said about Poppy, and I will argue that Poppy is the single most broken champion in the game and desperately in need of a rework.

{quoted} Poppy has clear weaknesses that are not hard to exploit, and they are fairly obvious. This article makes it sound like no waveclear and low mana are trivial, but this is not true.

You're absolutely right, no waveclear and low mana aren't trivial. However, they aren't by any means fun for the Poppy player, nor do they necessarily hold her back post-lane phase. It's strictly an early game limitation that can be bypassed with a crystal flask start and a rushed sheen, which would give her ample mana to blow up whatever opponent is facing her. You mentioned that Poppy can run out of mana quite easily when fighting, but then you say:

Of course, in a 1v1 she would have the damage

One of the staples of top lane is that it is relatively isolated from the rest of the map. Many times Poppy is left in a 1v1 for an extended period of the game. Not to mention she can also get an early vamp scepter and lifesteal up to full.

In addition to these, Poppy's other weakness is that she has several bad match-ups. Anybody with range counters her, because her only gapcloser(which costs more mana than her hammer blow) does minimal damage and pushes her into the enemy minion wave(Assuming they dont decide to randomly walk next to a wall).

Let's make this clear: any ranged counters (Quinn, Vayne, Lissandra) Poppy might have, every other top laner has as well. Furthermore, literally every top laner has huge counters. You pick Sion? Let me pick riven. You choose tryndamere? Hi, I'm Jax. Having counters that can shut you down in the lane is nothing new, nor is it a good reason to argue a champion's overall strengths or weaknesses. You also fail to mention that her gapcloser that does "minimal damage" gets that damage more than doubled if she runs someone into a wall. At max rank, it's a 183% increase in damage compared to the initial damage. That's not minimal. Nothing about her kit is minimal. Her q does 8% of a target's max hp AND and flat bonus AND scales 100% off of ad AND applies on-hit effects AND converts her auto into magic damage. No wonder it has a high mana cost; it literally does everything a damaging ability cold possibly do.

Also, Poppy also has extremely poor pathing compared to other champions. She is the only champion I have played where you can literally permanently get stuck between a minion and a wall, until you kill the minion. This doesn't happen every game, but it happens frequently enough. even without this, you will miss more cs from being randomly pathed around than you would on another champion.

Excuse you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMxiQl-s-7I

The enemy knows when poppy was saved by her passive. About every other game I hear "Poppy passive OP". If the problem is that her passive doesn't give the enemy feedback, then implement that feedback. The passive itself is very unique and well designed.

Yeah, we know when she was "saved", and we are extremely frustrated by it because a champion that can literally become invincible also mitigates 50% of the damage done to her. It has no counterplay, no way to get around, it simply tips every fight more in her favor. Is it well designed? Of course not. It's a simple damage mitigation. if you want a unique passive look at Sona or Syndra. Their passives enhance their gameplay and open up more options for them, and consequently more decisions for the opponents. Poppy's passive does none of this. It's simply: Hey, you're not doing damage to me!

The passive doesn't define poppy as anything. Barring a veigar ultimate, this passive ussually only comes into use when poppy is less than 200-300 HP and about to die. If the numbers fall right, it can practically be nullified and not matter. It ussually gives her an extra autoattack or 2 of survivability, no more. Her kit is what defines her as a bruiser, not her passive.

Her passive comes in literally every time she goes in for a trade; it just happens more often when you're low. Imagine you, Poppy, have 1000 hp. Any ability or attack that will do 100 damage or more will lose half of its damage. That's at least 50 damage that simply won't happen. It doesn't matter if this passive defines her or not; it's a ridiculously overpowered passive. An auto or two in a fight-to-the-death can be huge, and this passive mitigates that damage and more!

Lategame poppy is strong. Not dominating, but strong.

Tell that to the adc that was one-shot by Poppy and watches her run away clean because she can't be cc'd or damaged by anyone.

The problem is that when she uses her ultimate, the counterplay is to simply walk away from her.

Exactly. This is terrible counterplay, especially considering Poppy has a speed boost, targeted gapcloser/stun, and regularly builds BotrK. You just gave a huge reason why Poppy needs to be reworked.

If the carry is not near a wall, she has a hard time killing them without ignite.

I assume you don't play any squishy carries, or just don't notice when you delete them from the map.

poppy has to be very careful about when she goes in.

Again, everyone has to be careful about when they go in. I can't 1v5 a team as Zed, nor should I initiate a fight as Amumu unless my team is behind me. This point is irrelevant to your argument.

Poppy doesn't have insane amounts of damage, and she has to stick to the carry for at least long enough to deliver 2 hammer blows(4~ second cooldown) if she wants to kill them unaided.

Uh. Um. Poppy has assassin-level damage mid/late game. Killing someone in four seconds is kind of ridiculous, especially when you're able to tank an entire team while doing so. Furthermore, you failed to mention how much damage your gapcloser does, as well as the bonus 35 AD, 35 armor, and 25% ms you get from Poppy's w. This makes it easy for her to tank and kill a target quickly.

Thinking about when to ult and who to ult is an important lategame decision that will test a player strategically.

No it isn't. Not even close. Who should I ult? The tank that does no damage, has limited cc, long cooldowns, and wants to dive my team, or anyone else on their team? The question answers itself.

One can make an arguement that x champions ult could be swapped with y champion, and in some cases it's true. But poppy's ult suits her very well. The ult is very well named, since poppy is a diplomat, and diplomats have diplomatic immunity. The ult is very clever and goes with her kit.

Excuse me, but what? Poppy's ult could literally go on any other fighter/bruiser/tank in the game and make that champion OP. It doesn't just suit her well, it suits everyone well. The name, again, is completely irrelevant to the actual argument. We're arguing balance and kit health, not how one of her skills has "diplomat" in the name. Finally, your last statement is completely unsupported by any evidence. You simply throw it at the end of your argument like someone throws trash on the side of a road.

TL;DR: Please don't take the unique champion poppy is and turn her into a generic bruiser. Her current design is not bad. At the moment, she is fairly balanced, has exploitable weaknesses, and has counterplay options. All poppy needs is some QoL buffs, such as improving her pathing around minions.

Hate to break it to you, but Poppy is not just a generic bruiser, but a poorly designed one. Her kit exalts low counterplay, broken abilities, and a horrifically unfun experience for anyone who has the misfortune of playing with or against her. She has no real weaknesses that an opponent can exploit, and can't really be outplayed. Any buffs to Poppy now would make her broken beyond belief, leaving the only option a full rework of her kit and her identity.

Only Play Darius1 votes

Did you just say Poppy has a good laning phase? Maybe, and it's a** big **maybe, Poppy could go even vs some of the older champs like Skarner Chogath DrMundo . Put her up against any champ released in the past year and she is going to get decimated. Huge mana problems, no sustain, and no poke.

She makes up for it by having raw, unmatched damage and tankiness mid and late game, but Riot thinks having high scalings and high defenses is OP so they are going to rework AKA nerf her.

Poppy is right now one of the few immobile champs who can clown on these newer, highly mobile champs, simply because she can do lethal damage before they get the opportunity to self peel. Few things frustrate me more than fighting a mobile champ, because they come in and pick a fight with you, and the moment they realize they are outmatched, all they do is start walking toward a wall. I know exactly what they are going to do once they reach that wall, but because I have no mobility there is nothing I can do other than try to kill them before they get to that wall, i'm fighting the clock instead of my actual opponent. Many champions can't kill fast enough anymore thanks to nerfs because apparently having enough damage to do that makes them OP, but being able to pass through a wall every ten seconds is perfectly balanced. But when I'm playing my beloved Poppy, I laugh at this tactic. Not only am I usually doing insane damage before they realize they are outmatched, but by walking directly to a wall, they give me a free stun and double the damage on my E.

Of course mobility over everything, which is why a champion that gets a free stun when someone tries to abuse mobility is going to get nerfed, because "lacks counterplay". Hell they'll probably try to even stuff some mobility in Poppy's reworked kit. But i'm doubtful that Poppy will keep her identity as the deceptively strong and durable killer that we all know and love.

RIP the only assassin tank in the game, you will be missed dearly. Poppy

Tilomentry4 votes

Poppy has a dash and 25% MS boost. I would hardly call that immobile.

noobatallgames1 votes

{quoted}

Okay, I strongly disagree with what you said about Poppy, and I will argue that Poppy is the single most broken champion in the game and desperately in need of a rework. Poppy has clear weaknesses that are not hard to exploit, and they are fairly obvious. This article makes it sound like no waveclear and low mana are trivial, but this is not true.

You're absolutely right, no waveclear and low mana aren't trivial. However, they aren't by any means fun for the Poppy player, nor do they necessarily hold her back post-lane phase. It's strictly an early game limitation that can be bypassed with a crystal flask start and a rushed sheen, which would give her ample mana to blow up whatever opponent is facing her. You mentioned that Poppy can run out of mana quite easily when fighting, but then you say:

One of the staples of top lane is that it is relatively isolated from the rest of the map. Many times Poppy is left in a 1v1 for an extended period of the game. Not to mention she can also get an early vamp scepter and lifesteal up to full.

Let's make this clear: any ranged counters (Quinn, Vayne, Lissandra) Poppy might have, every other top laner has as well. Furthermore, literally every top laner has huge counters. You pick Sion? Let me pick riven. You choose tryndamere? Hi, I'm Jax. Having counters that can shut you down in the lane is nothing new, nor is it a good reason to argue a champion's overall strengths or weaknesses. You also fail to mention that her gapcloser that does "minimal damage" gets that damage more than doubled if she runs someone into a wall. At max rank, it's a 183% increase in damage compared to the initial damage. That's not minimal. Nothing about her kit is minimal. Her q does 8% of a target's max hp AND and flat bonus AND scales 100% off of ad AND applies on-hit effects AND converts her auto into magic damage. No wonder it has a high mana cost; it literally does everything a damaging ability cold possibly do.

Excuse you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMxiQl-s-7I

Yeah, we know when she was "saved", and we are extremely frustrated by it because a champion that can literally become invincible also mitigates 50% of the damage done to her. It has no counterplay, no way to get around, it simply tips every fight more in her favor. Is it well designed? Of course not. It's a simple damage mitigation. if you want a unique passive look at Sona or Syndra. Their passives enhance their gameplay and open up more options for them, and consequently more decisions for the opponents. Poppy's passive does none of this. It's simply: Hey, you're not doing damage to me!

Her passive comes in literally every time she goes in for a trade; it just happens more often when you're low. Imagine you, Poppy, have 1000 hp. Any ability or attack that will do 100 damage or more will lose half of its damage. That's at least 50 damage that simply won't happen. It doesn't matter if this passive defines her or not; it's a ridiculously overpowered passive. An auto or two in a fight-to-the-death can be huge, and this passive mitigates that damage and more!

Tell that to the adc that was one-shot by Poppy and watches her run away clean because she can't be cc'd or damaged by anyone.

Exactly. This is terrible counterplay, especially considering Poppy has a speed boost, targeted gapcloser/stun, and regularly builds BotrK. You just gave a huge reason why Poppy needs to be reworked.

I assume you don't play any squishy carries, or just don't notice when you delete them from the map.

Again, everyone has to be careful about when they go in. I can't 1v5 a team as Zed, nor should I initiate a fight as Amumu unless my team is behind me. This point is irrelevant to your argument.

Uh. Um. Poppy has assassin-level damage mid/late game. Killing someone in four seconds is kind of ridiculous, especially when you're able to tank an entire team while doing so. Furthermore, you failed to mention how much damage your gapcloser does, as well as the bonus 35 AD, 35 armor, and 25% ms you get from Poppy's w. This makes it easy for her to tank and kill a target quickly.

No it isn't. Not even close. Who should I ult? The tank that does no damage, has limited cc, long cooldowns, and wants to dive my team, or anyone else on their team? The question answers itself.

Excuse me, but what? Poppy's ult could literally go on any other fighter/bruiser/tank in the game and make that champion OP. It doesn't just suit her well, it suits everyone well. The name, again, is completely irrelevant to the actual argument. We're arguing balance and kit health, not how one of her skills has "diplomat" in the name. Finally, your last statement is completely unsupported by any evidence. You simply throw it at the end of your argument like someone throws trash on the side of a road.

Hate to break it to you, but Poppy is not just a generic bruiser, but a poorly designed one. Her kit exalts low counterplay, broken abilities, and a horrifically unfun experience for anyone who has the misfortune of playing with or against her. She has no real weaknesses that an opponent can exploit, and can't really be outplayed. Any buffs to Poppy now would make her broken beyond belief, leaving the only option a full rework of her kit and her identity.

i love poppy and have all her skins play her a fuckton and you sir are right people saying poppy have to stay the way she is nuts she unfair but same time very weak weak point low as fuck mana high mana cost early game but bring poppy in the jung and she lose all the negtive what u have a broken fucking champ with lil to no counter play

AMYS GRAVE2 votes

this is why we need more direct interaction with rioters. we are forced to get all our information about the game from infrequent and incomplete patch notes, or from inaccurate 3rd party sites.

Hellhammer2 votes

The problem right now is this rework is being made in the eyes of league as a whole who nods their head at anything new, while they should call in a Focus group of minority leaders who actually play her like us.

We know her strengths and weaknesses better than other people...

what pisses me off is the fact that Riot announces Poppy's rework and it gets shoved back by visual updates for champs that are already fine, whats it at now Ryze and Taric.

Poppy is eventually going to look like " Mr Game and Watch" from smash bros in terms of graphics.

lDontLiftIcarry2 votes

j4 gets stuck between walls/his E because riots new collision changes are complete shit. I've gotten stuck into walls so many times for the past few months because of it LOL

Poppy is not balanced. She's a ticking timebomb if they buff her wrong or nerf her wrong she'd easily become impossible to make work.

Or impossible to play against.

her R/W should definately stay but the rest of her kit needs work and needs it badly. She's a bad ass hammer weilding paladin. Thats what she is If riots not dumb it shouldn't be hard to figure out where to go next with her kit and how to make it feel good to play instead of clunky and "well I hope that support doesn't cc lock me so I can stick to ADC with ghost long enough to kill them"

Rinky Dinky2 votes

Her ult is confirmed to be getting massive changes.

Her ult is why she is a timebomb.

Reikken2 votes

Poppy's ult is the dumbest shit in the game as far as gameplay health and really needs to be removed ASAP

psychostabile2 votes

invulnerability is stupid, her ult by itself is to powerful especially on a high damage champ. to keep poppy from pub-stomping everything she has to be kept weak with no real early game, and since she has no inherent wave clear, or utility out side of her damage and situational stun she cant function from being behind. while i dont think she is bad or weak, but to be a fun reliable choice she needs changes to at the least her ult and passive. personally i would like to see her R inverted so she only gains protection from one thing and give her the ability to target towers as well. as for the passive, i got nothing. i play poppy alot and she wins for the same reason yoricks win, the hidden passive "confusion" people never see her so they cant gauge her damage. plus if she get less op in the late game rito might give her mana so she doesnt feel like a dota champ anymore.

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