Why is Ancient Coin's stats meager compared to Spellthief's Edge?

Deep Terror Nami·Sep 14, 2014·3 votes·1,801 views

I'm not asking for a change to either of them, but I'm wondering why Ancient Coin has a meager 3 MP5 for raw stats, while Spellthief's Edge has a superior 5 AP + 2 MP5 + 2 GP10, on top of a superior gold generating Unique Passive: Tribute as long as you poke the enemy occasionally?

Unless you upgrade your Ancient Coin to Nomad's Medallion on first or second back, if you want Talisman of Ascension it's often better to just go with Spellthief's Edge and sell it later for the full Talisman. This, of course, is still assuming you poke decently for Tribute gold.

If someone would like to put me in my place by number crunching gold gain from the two items and their upgrades, please do. I'd prefer to have correct information rather than just my own opinion.

9 Comments

Battlecast SonaSep 14, 20143 votes

You're forgetting that Ancient Coin gives you health back every time a minion dies near you. That's pretty significant in early laning.

MrBuffingtonSep 14, 20142 votes

Ancient Coin also has some HP regen as a passive (you gain HP when a minion dies), so it has that going for it (5.7 HP5 according to the wiki, if you're in range for all the minion deaths).

Some investigative number crunching, since I'm curious too:

So, Ancient Coin gives 4.2 GP10 (if you're in range for all minion deaths) according to the wiki. Spellthief's can theoretically give 7 GP10 (you get a charge every 10 seconds that gives you 5 gold). This is only if you manage to use all your stacks constantly, though, and Ancient Coin's passive doesn't have a cooldown if you accidentally kill a minion (it doesn't give you the 2 bonus gold, but it doesn't have a cooldown like Spellthief's). Spellthief's sells for 146g, so the passive basically has to be worth 219 g, so 4.2x vs 7x - 219. Unless my math is wrong, it'll take ~13 minutes for this gold trade off to be worth it, assuming you're perfect in terms of gold generation (on both sides), so if you're selling Spellthief's before this, you're probably losing gold overall, but if you're holding onto it for longer, you'll probably be gaining more gold.

Nomad's Medallion gives 8.3 GP10 (according to the wiki), where Frostfang gives 12 GP10 max (10 gold per charge). Frostfang sells for 346g, so, 8.3x vs 12x - 519. Not taking into account the gold advantage from Spellthief's>Ancient Coin, unless my math is wrong, it'll take another ~23.3 minutes with Frostfang to equal Nomad's Medallion. That number isn't totally accurate, since it depends a lot on timing of when you buy your item, and the amount of gold you gained from Spellthief's over Ancient Coin, etc. but basically it takes some additional time for selling Frostfang to be worth it.

So (again if my math is correct), it seems like if you're going for Talisman, but you're not going to upgrade before 13 minutes and you're playing a heavy harass champion, getting Spellthief's and selling it later is a bit more gold efficient. Otherwise it seems smarter to stick with the Ancient Coin line.

Deep Terror NamiSep 14, 20142 votes

Thank you very much. I guess I could've gone to the Wiki, huh? I wish the Match History would show how much gold you gained through items, it would make determining what you're most efficient with easier.

MrBuffingtonSep 14, 20141 votes

Yea, I would appreciate that feature, I like how they've added the times you go back to buy now

Serpents EmbraceSep 14, 20141 votes

Spellthief's gold generation passive is potentially more potent, but also a lot more risky. A Coin is going to do what it does without any input from the support, but the Spellthief's requires constant vigilance and action.

I've also always thought that the Active of Talisman was another reason, as it's worlds more powerful than Frost Queen's.

Deep Terror NamiSep 14, 20141 votes

Ya I very very rarely upgrade Spellthief's even to the second tier, I just drop it late game for the full Talisman. I spend most of my laning phase poking, but I prefer Nami so it's easier than a melee support, but in their case I get Relic Shield anyway. It just feels like Ancient Coin (just the basic, not upgraded) is kind of lame.

Serpents EmbraceSep 14, 20142 votes

Well, you should always upgrade to the second tier just for the huge rise in gold generation. This is true for any support gold item you get in lane.

But often times I want to get Frostfang and then sell it mid or late game for Talisman when I can afford it.

cshakesSep 14, 20141 votes

Even when I'm playing melee supports, I generally sell my Relic Shield and buy a Talisman when my teammates start to deal over 200 damage to minions.

FlemmanSep 14, 20141 votes

For these two items, the biggest injustice is that, compared to relic shield, they don't have a passiv who also help the adc in the lane.

Don't know for you but, except for mage who need the ap on spelltief, I will never take ancient coin over relic shield since the last allow me to heal my adc if he needs it