Can we zoom out a bit more?

abdul569·May 25, 2017·72 votes·57,417 views

Seeing more on one screen would be nice.

65 Comments

ZielmannMay 25, 201727 votes

The FoV that you have is actually an integral part of the game design and balance. If they nudge it out slightly, it would have much larger implications that you might think. And after they adjust balance and design to account for that FoV, you're likely going to be left wishing the FoV were slightly wider yet. If they change it, it'll just start a cycle of wanting to zoom out even more and more.

nice tableMay 25, 20172 votes

OP wants to zoom out more not actually be able to see more, don't think this would require any "balance changes".

ZielmannMay 25, 20172 votes

FoV is field of view. I think you're talking about fog of war, which is different. Even if fog of war is left at the same distance, a wider field of view is still a huge deal.

nice tableMay 25, 20173 votes

maybe if you are missing the ability to unlock your camera

AMYS GRAVEMay 25, 20176 votes

slippery slope argument.

ZielmannMay 25, 20175 votes

Of course there's a point where it becomes unreasonable. But you can't just ignore that FoV is an integral part of the game design, either. If the game were designed to have a larger FoV, there would likely still be people asking for a wider FoV.

Why make a change that requires a complete overhaul on the game when the benefits are minimal, and you'll never please everybody?

AnidanMay 25, 20174 votes

I would actually have to agree. Not only that, but the more FoV you have, the more potential knowledge you have available to you. Now, that sounds great initially, until you realize that the FoV is as narrow as it is for balance reasons at much as it is gameplay and aesthetic reasons at this point, just like DotA2's FoV. You have to balance out what information you can see in detail with the generalities of the minimap. Sometimes less is more.

AMYS GRAVEMay 26, 20173 votes

Of course there's a point where it becomes unreasonable.

So zooming out slightly wouldn't in fact lead to that unreasonable state. Ok then, we can better optimize the FOV.

Why make a change that requires a complete overhaul on the game when the benefits are minimal,

Overhaul? Really? Watch some LCS games and watch how they zoom the camera out. You get information about the entire fight and that could hardly be considered a minimal change ... it actually amazes me that having knowledge of a fight happening around you is marginalized by you and others here.

and you'll never please everybody?

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. You don't have to have 100% approval over a change to make things better than they are. This is a suggestion for improvement, not meant to make the game perfect for everyone, and the hypothetical people you cite who would not be pleased still would be happy over increasing the FOV, they just want it to be farther out still so they would get an improvement. The change would make some people happier, while having no effect on others. Where is the downside then?

ZielmannMay 26, 20171 votes

So zooming out slightly wouldn't in fact lead to that unreasonable state. Ok then, we can better optimize the FOV.

Nice try. You know that's not what I was talking about. Obviously, there's a point where you've zoomed out too much for the game to be playable (see sarcastic comments about just making the minimap full-screen and playing on that).

But zooming out a little bit would require big changes to the game in terms of balance, models, animations, etc.

Watch some LCS games and watch how they zoom the camera out.

I have, and it looks awful when they do that. Animations looks clunky, the whole game appears to be moving in slow motion. It highlights exactly why major changes would be needed.

You get information about the entire fight and that could hardly be considered a minimal change ... it actually >amazes me that having knowledge of a fight happening around you is marginalized by you and others here.

How is "this would require major balance changes" minimizing how that extra knowledge changes the game? Of course it's a huge deal.

The question is really...why? Sure, people have more info visible on the screen. But there will always be more information you could have that's just off the screen. Why make an arbitrary change to something that's so central to the game design? The benefits to the gameplay experience overall would have to be massive in order to justify the work required.

AMYS GRAVEMay 26, 20172 votes

But zooming out a little bit would require big changes to the game in terms of balance, models, animations, etc.

Balance changes? Please explain.

Models? Animations? We already see how the game looks zoomed out more, in LCS replays and when using Jhin or Xerath ults and it looks fine.

I have, and it looks awful when they do that. Animations looks clunky, the whole game appears to be moving in slow motion. It highlights exactly why major changes would be needed.

I disagree. When they do that then i appreciate the viewpoint, as does the OP and others i'm guessing. If you don't like it that way then you don't have to zoom out, its only adding the option for those who want it. I still fail to see what major changes would be needed as all your arguments against adding an optional feature so far have been your aesthetic opinion. "no one can have this because i don't like how it looks" is all I've gathered from you so far.

How is "this would require major balance changes" minimizing how that extra knowledge changes the game? Of course it's a huge deal.

So "the benefits are minimal" isn't accurate then? Is it "an arbitrary change" or is there any reason/drawback for it. You're taking both sides of this point, pick one.

But there will always be more information you could have that's just off the screen.

Continuing the slippery slope. We can't have more because we can't have everything.

The benefits to the gameplay experience overall would have to be massive in order to justify the work required.

What work? The technology is already there....

Lux Is Mai WaifuMay 26, 20172 votes

just saying "hurr durr slippery slope" doesn't make them wrong

AMYS GRAVEMay 26, 20172 votes

I mean, is it really too much to ask for meaningful discourse on these forums?

just saying "hurr durr slippery slope"

hurr durr

... i guess so...

Lux Is Mai WaifuMay 26, 20173 votes

I'm asking for you to provide meaningful discourse instead of spouting memes, you should have stated why you thought it was a slippery slope in the first post.

AMYS GRAVEMay 26, 20172 votes

you should have stated why you thought it was a slippery slope in the first post.

I thought it was fairly obvious when the post said ...

If they change it, it'll just start a cycle of wanting to zoom out even more and more.

That's a textbook example of slippery slope.

SzGamer227May 26, 20172 votes

You've got a case of the fallacy fallacy.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-fallacy-fallacy

You presume that by pointing out that an argument is flawed that there is no need for discourse over why the argument is wrong, which itself is a fallacious approach to an argument.

AMYS GRAVEMay 26, 20171 votes

No, the fallacy fallacy would be me saying he is wrong because he used a fallacy. I was simply pointing out the fallacy and hoping for a better argument/reason for his stance. I'm not going to base a conversation on a fallacy as that leads nowhere, and as a result of my post he continued and we had a meaningful conversation on the matter.

Lux Is Mai WaifuMay 27, 20171 votes

And it's on you to show why it won't go all the way down the slope. Which you should have done in the first place.

AMYS GRAVEMay 27, 20172 votes

What? You must be trolling at this point. He was the one making the claim that it would go down the slope, the burden of proof lies on the one making the claim, not on the one who points out the fallacy with the original statement.

Lux Is Mai WaifuMay 28, 20172 votes

He already gave his scenario for why it would go to the extreme case, you didn't point out why it wouldn't, you just said it followed a pattern until asked to. Your comment didn't encourage any further discussion about anything except your ability to identify patterns and then not do anything with it.

General Esdeath May 25, 20175 votes

Just show the whole map :^)

ZielmannMay 25, 20177 votes

Max out the size for the minimap, and just play off that

General Esdeath May 25, 20172 votes

I play with a big 2 ft by 1 ft TV behind my monitor with just the minimap

DarkRitualMay 25, 20172 votes

Coming up in Random Game Mode Queue: 6v6 Dominion Hexakill Minimap only!

Darkdemon653May 25, 20177 votes

{quoted}

Just show the whole map :^)

It makes last hitting really hard, though.

http://imgur.com/a/BdSrC

General Esdeath May 25, 20171 votes

I meant bird's eye view

farmer1Jun 6, 20181 votes

B I G B R A I N rift

SzGamer227May 26, 20174 votes

First of all, slippery slope fallacy. People would stop wanting a bigger screen when their screen exceeds a champion's vision range.

Second of all, all it would do is put more power in the hands of newer players who aren't comfortable or proficient at unlocking the camera and using freecam. It wouldn't break the game, it would be a crutch for players who don't have the camera control that higher skilled ones do.

ZielmannMay 26, 20172 votes

This is a benefit to it, yes. But I disagree that it doesn't break the game (or at least require major changes if they do it). The FoV used is as integral to the balance of the game as Flash's existence is. On top of that, we already see how awkwardly slow everything looks when Riot zooms out in the LCS broadcasts. Work would definitely need to be done.

And I acknowledge making a statement that pushes a slippery slope. But I do still believe that, within reason, players are always going to want more information available to them than what they have. Information is incredibly valuable in a game like this. And I also believe that, when making the game originally, had Riot set the max FoV to something wider than we have now, this conversation would still be happening due to the value of information.

And thank you for actually contributing to the discussion rather than dismissing arguments entirely due to a single statement.

SzGamer227May 26, 20172 votes

Information is important, yes, but I'd argue that actual vision (revealing the fog of war) is the more important factor, not how much of the map you can see on your screen, especially when you consider that you can already see the whole map on your screen at once via the minimap; having the ability to zoom out further just increases the amount of that information you have rendered on your screen in graphic detail, and how much of it you can click on.

If you interpret the minimap as having the entire map in your view, the only adverse benefit that would affect a champion's power/behavior to having the game's FoV increased by enlarged camera zoom would be a larger area where you can precisely point and click. The only champions that would have their power shifted by this benefit are ones with long-ranged skill shots that don't already have special FoV alterations built in (e.g. Xerath and Jhin ultimates). Draven and Jinx ultimates might become easier to use, and long range snipes with Jhin's W that would otherwise be just off screen would be more reliable, but that's all I can think of.

Champions are designed to operate within the given FoV window that you see in-game, and letting players see just beyond that window wouldn't be game breaking. It would just put more information at the forefront of a player's mind if they aren't in the habit of keeping the minimap in mind and using freecam regularly.

Keep in mind that when I hear "let us zoom out more" what I have in my mind is something to the effect of seeing a half-inch (or centimeter) in any direction beyond the FoV of current default zoom at the very most, just because I feel like on-screen visuals feel a little cramped with the area where I'm interacting with the playing field. I don't want an expansive cinematic bird's-eye overhead of my lane, just a little more distance between where UI elements are and where I'm pointing and clicking the most. I doubt I'd notice any awkward slowness from being zoomed out just a little further. I don't know for sure, but I'd like to give it a try.

{quoted}

And thank you for actually contributing to the discussion rather than dismissing arguments entirely due to a single statement.

lol np ;D

ZielmannMay 26, 20171 votes

Relative to your FoV, models all shrink. Particles shrink. Hitboxes shrink. It would vary by ability, but some things may become easier to land, other more difficult.

Regarding vision, the minimap doesn't show you nearly as much as what's on the screen itself. But I do think there's a lot of value when you start showing a lot more than the normal fog of war radius on the screen. Yes, normally this will be hidden, but it's not uncommon to have wards in the nearby areas of the FoW that are important (especially during laning). So you would certainly be able to see more than you can now, despite FoW.

Also, there are other factors, too. With a larger area in view at all times, it may be the difference between noticing that Ashe ult on the way and sidestepping just in time, or getting hit.

I'm not really trying to say these things are inherently bad or inherently good. They're just points you'd have to think about when you go to address the balance of the game after making such a change. This is where I question whether the work required from such a change is justified by what's gained.

SzGamer227May 28, 20171 votes

So we've boiled it down to a conundrum that can never be really solved. I say increasing the zoom wouldn't require many changes, you say it would, and neither stance can be proven or disproven without actually implementing the change and testing the waters for how much would need to be adjusted.

JoySJoK3rFeb 7, 20181 votes

Personally, I physically don't have the mechanical ability to use the unlocked camera, my crappy laptop can't handle it. I've been using the locked camera for 8 years or so, and after 7 years I finally got into ranked. (Too many trolls in the early years of bronze) But using just the locked camera I went from bronze 5 to gold 5 in 3 months. From personal experience, I believe it takes more skill to be good at league with a locked camera because you have to adapt your positioning for the lack of expanded vision. I will be the first to admit that I've died from a gank I didn't see coming but could have, had I had, item 3348 a better camera angle.

rework trundleMay 25, 20177 votes

As long as it doesn't advantage those who have a bigger screen, I'm for it.

JRobin31May 26, 20176 votes

"The FoV that you have is actually an integral part of the game design and balance." "But you can't just ignore that FoV is an integral part of the game design, either. If the game were designed to have a larger FoV, there would likely still be people asking for a wider FoV. " " the more potential knowledge you have available to you. Now, that sounds great initially, until you realize that the FoV is as narrow as it is for balance reasons at much as it is gameplay and aesthetic reasons at this point" "if riot were to allow zooming out more then it would likely require an extensive overhaul of several abilities, masteries, models, most likely wards, etc. The change op is asking for is deceptively complex." "They would probably need to actually do a global bump in movespeed so things didn't look off, which would effectively shrink the whole map..." "As well as increases system resource use, by needing to draw more on-screen." "In the end it would be much more trouble than it would be worth and could potentially end up in a game that doesn't feel as satisfying to play."

So... Jhin what's that you're saying? "game design" "balance" "FoV" "aesthetic" "extensive overhaul" "global bump to movespeed" "increases system resources" "doesn't feel as satisfying to play" o you small, small minds

My genius will be understood - eventually. I cannot be good. I must be perfection.

ModAcademy KaynMay 26, 20171 votes

I have never been more confused...

JRobin31May 26, 20173 votes

Jhin This stage is beneath my talent, but I shall elevate it.

Jhin ult gives FoV increase.

Jhin I will bring them an opera of death.

Players are arguing against FoV increase, but RIOT has already implemented FoV increase for Jhin!

Jhin I am at my best only during the performance.

Where are the problems players are talking about? Do these problems really exist? Or are they manufactured?

Jhin You lack imagination.

If there really were any problems, RIOT could disable those problems during FoV increase. It's a non-issue.

ModAcademy KaynMay 26, 20172 votes

Alright, I getcha, but that's ignoring everything that happens mid-ult.

Jhin is not moving, and the screen purposefully puts him on the edge, so it's only showing him what's in front of him. Because they put him at the edge, they can afford an accurate farther out point of view, because it's only showing what's in front of him, which is considerably smaller than showing the exact same room behind him as it is in front.

You can't compare constant expanded FOW zoom out to Jhin's periodic standstill ult.

JRobin31May 27, 20171 votes

"because it's only showing what's in front of him, which is considerably smaller than showing the exact same room behind him as it is in front" What is this? Do you play with locked screen?!? The default button to unlock your screen is 'y'.

Jhin My audience awaits.

Story Time: Once upon time, there was a player who thought the FoV was too small. He thought about it for a minute and then hacked the game. But, unfortunately, actually using this in a game would be a form of cheating.

However, he was not the first person ever to think the FoV was too small... Once upon another older time, an different player pondered this same question... And he thought, "What if I had three monitors?" And he made this. But, obviously, it would be cheating to use that in an actual game.

But RIOT employees play the game too and one day one of them thought: "Hey guys, we could totally make a champion with a special ult that uses a larger FoV!" And RIOT made Jhin . In carnage, I bloom, like a flower in the dawn.

"You can't compare ... to Jhin's periodic standstill ult." Jhin Art requires a certain cruelty. Maybe a larger FoV doesn't need to be everything you get in a smaller FoV.

Is the player base unreasonable because a larger FoV because such a view would be standstill or forced to be limited in some way? Jhin Art must exist beyond reason.

ModAcademy KaynMay 27, 20171 votes

Alright, let's just go the simple way. The game was designed around it's view limitation. To change that any further out, save for fringe cases like Jhin's or Xerath, who become limited in that mode, is going to wreck a few things. A jungler sneaking up in your corner spot, only for you to see them miles away due to a further FOW, fucks over people. Artillery mages now get easy aiming as opposed to before, as they need to either scroll the screen further away, or predict.

JRobin31May 30, 20171 votes

item 2049 item 3340 The game is designed around us. There once was a time when players waged Epic Vision Wars. No matter how many champions it screwed over, RIOT ended that insanity.

Praying4GoodTeamMay 25, 20175 votes

i would love riot for that cause im so annoyed of champs who can kill you with out even coming in you FOV Lux Nidalee Twitch Velkoz Xerath

i know this is not what higher elo needs but lower elo really needs this (sorry for my bad english)

TimX24968BMay 26, 20172 votes

sir, that's how "artillery" works. whether its an ability or a champion, thats how it works.

Darkdemon653May 25, 20175 votes

I dunno. The zoom seems pretty good to me.

http://imgur.com/a/firAf

But in all seriousness, there really should be a way to zoom out more in the in-game options.

CowseedMay 26, 20175 votes

Just buy a 8k monitor. Sheesh. People are so cheap nowadays.

AMYS GRAVEMay 26, 20172 votes

It still boggles my mind that buying a higher resolution monitor allows you to zoom out more.

ZelorxonMay 26, 20171 votes

You can also do something with the in game resolution ratio, it will look awful and it will be annoying as fuck to play but you can still do it.

BrascusMay 25, 20172 votes

I would kill to have the camera lock at current camera position rather than on top of the champ

Velzard of KozMay 25, 20173 votes

Not sure If I get what you mean, but you can unlock this.

ZelorxonMay 26, 20172 votes

They should make a keyboard button that allows you to zoom out as a toggle just like jhin's ultimate (maybe not that far since is not necessary), so that you can use cait's ult, kog's ult, varus Q when you are red side, zac E, and a bunch of other offscreen stuff that need just for a little while to have the camera zoomed out without the need to unlock the camera for a second and then lock it again (the Y button is bugged as hell since i can remember, since i have to spam it and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, sometimes i have to alt tab and then reselect the game icon to make it work properly, and also sometimes it locks/unlocks by itself without me pressing anything) or just to gather more informations (hp/mana bars status, cooldowns, number of people) of what's happening near you without having to drag for a second the minimap cam there where the action is happening before getting there. It would be exactly like hotkeying a group of units or a building like starcraft, it would just reduce the amounts of uncomfortable clicks one must do to perform a very basic action.

It wouldn't change literally anything balance wise and it would be just comfortable to use. (also back then when my pc broke i had to play on several different monitors and i noticed that the camera angle and zoom changes according to both the resolution in game and the screen's size, never understood why)

Also as a jungler it would be awesome if we could macro the movements like in starcraft so that i don't have to perform 4 clicks, wait for the character to move the distance and then perform the next click while i wish i could use that time to look around the map and maybe i accidentally walk across mid since the pathing decided that i was 1 pixel wrong from the pathing i was thinking of, it happened to me a couple of times and it was pretty frustrating, i've been wishing for this since i can't even remember, weird nobody thought if it already...)

~~Also let us start the game with the camera already locked if we selected so since 0.25/10 games i trinket the fountain and i don't have the ward to scout where the enemy jungler starts~~

MorticianjohnMay 27, 20172 votes

I totally agree that we need slightly more zoom out. There are times and places on the map where I could be playing Caitlyn and my auto attack range is outside of my field of vision when I have the screen locked on my champion. Sometimes I'm able to position my screen correctly but there are other times where I am just too slow. I know that good players don't suffer from this issue and I will certainly get better about it but I think that at least the auto attack ranges should be within view of the champion so we don't have to unlock the screen for us bad players.