League has become too changed from the competitive game of its past

InfinitexMortal·Jul 9, 2016·112 votes·4,761 views

League is no longer fun creative or inventive it is now just a monogamy of who can pick more broken champs. Even if you outplay the enemy team, if they have more broken champs than your team, most of the time they will win.

I've given your game so many chances and yet with every new change you seem to break the game further. First it was the bounty system, then the gold changes, then removing solo queue and replacing it with dynamic queue, then the new bs dragons. However irritating and game changing (not in a good way) this all was, none of that stopped me playing. It was the old formula, matchmaking and balanced champ pool that made me and so many others make your game the biggest game on the market. However, sometime while buried to your eyeballs in swimming-pools of money and e-sports fame your game strayed away from this trying to draw in a bigger audience while completely turning this game into something else entirely. The new horrendous matchmaking system makes games so one-sided and nothing but a stomp-fest. You are leaving champions super broken while nerfing non-broken champs that needed no tweaks (like voli) and causing the team with the more broken champs to instantly have a huge advantage even over a team of superior skill. And this, along with several of your other changes i mentioned earlier has killed any of the fair competitive game-play that I used to enjoy in League.

Your game isn't fun anymore, and now it is no longer a fair competitive experience. It has turned into a "who can grab the most broken champ" and "who has the lucky end of the one-sided matchmaking". This has turned this "competitive" game into a casual stomp-fest in which skill is only a small factor and that is not what got me into league and not what kept me coming back to it. I hope that you, Riot, sees your faults and makes changes to bring league back to its glory days in season 7 but i fear your eyes are too clouded by the casual market money and you will continue to mainstream this once competitive game.

InfinitexMortal

84 Comments

Zero ShingetsuJul 9, 201643 votes

Yes. I think it really took off when Riot started enforcing a meta. They looked at how the pros were playing and started tuning the entire game towards pro play, like they're more important than the hundreds of thousands of players who pay the utilities at Riot's front office. As a result, all the experimentation and fun was sapped from the game. They started creating champions specifically to fill certain roles, and thus tailoring them to that role. Then it became, as you say, about picking the champion most undeniably made to play your role.

"The game is often won or lost in the pick phase," I've heard. That's absurd. In a balanced, fun game, the pick phase shouldn't mean more than 20% of the odds to win the game. Player skill and teamwork should win or lose the game. If pick phase is that important, something has gone horribly wrong on the design front. This is just one of many problems Riot needs to step away from the summer broadcasts to correct before their game starts losing players by the hundreds.

A LiberalJul 9, 20163 votes

Whats worse is that the games players are no longer accepted of ACTUAL off-meta stuff (Not shit like or Urgot mid that is "offmeta").

When Soraka was reworked ~10 patches ago I had something like a 80% winrate with her toplane as an offtank mage. I probably also had a 80% dodge/flame rate, and the one game I went against a riven who smashed my ass, I got reported for trolling.

I have level 5 Kalista having almost only played her support, and I won most of my games with her (Or at least I assume, since I got her and Champion Kalista from a world's party and her support stopped working after the marksman update in november)

League used to be a game that I could have fun experimenting with without having to get 5 people together. But very rarely now can I do weird offmeta stuff even in normals (Heck, even in rotating game modes/ARAM sometimes).

PopppyseedJul 9, 20163 votes

And Riot dosen't seem like they care about off-meta things. Like AP caitlyn and AP MF use to be my favorite things to play in the game but in the marksman updates they just gutted AP MF and straight up killed AP Caitlyn to make the main builds be strong.

ElikainJul 9, 20161 votes

Do you seriously believe they could balance the champion that can make use of every single stat in the game and be entirely healthy + balanced for the game?

PopppyseedJul 9, 20165 votes

Akali Evelynn Nasus Sion Fizz

Yes.

ElikainJul 9, 20161 votes

Akali, Evelynn, Nasus and even Sion are not seeing play at all. Is this a good representation of these champions being viable by every single stat? Wouldn't this mean that all 4 of these champions, regardless of how the game changes, would always find their place and be relevant?

If that's the case, why are they absent?

By the way, AP Cait was never a thing and was never called off-meta. Marksmen don't scale with AP and this should never be a second build, much like Riot destroyed AP Yi. There's a problem once the "off-meta" builds take over because they are easier to invest in and then not interact with your opponents at all. AP Yi didn't have a counter at all and was frustrating to play against.

PopppyseedJul 10, 20163 votes

I assume when you talk about not seeing play you mean not seeing play in E-Sports. What they do in E-sports is totally different than what we play. All of these champions are fine picks with average playrates, not absent at all. And them being able to make use of all stats dosen't mean AP sions gonna make a place as the meta Sion build.

And what are you talking about there shouldnt be second builds? Jhin can build standard crit or the SECONDARY armor pen build. AP yi was just op because his scaling was very high and had uncontestable damage with invulnarability. And since AP yi was the meta build for yi hes not even an off-meta. So please stop making assumptions for all offmeta builds from AP Yi.

ElikainJul 10, 20161 votes

I'm not talking about E-sports. I'm in Diamond and i don't see them played much at all. Granted, Diamond is not the only ELO RIot takes their champ stats from but their play rate is way bellow what the community considers "viable".

And what's the problem with Jhin exactly? Going armor pen and still building damage? This isn't an off-meta build, it's a variation to his existent build and trading crit for armor pen. In fact, him, MF and Lucian share the same traits of dealing with a lot of ability damage and not particularly caring about duking it out the old fashioned way Marksmen always did.

An off-meta build is going completely opposite of what you usually do and that was Tank Ekko, Fizz, Zed and Yi build. Trading all the stats you usually need to succeed and going full tank and still managing to do good, even better than before. AP Cait and AP Yi were the off-meta builds that took over their traditional ones because they "were fun" and easy to do and had no agency.

As a matter of fact, AP Cait and AP Yi were toxic builds that "were fun" for the player and not for his enemies. And since we're talking about what's fun for the user and not for the opposing team, Zed's a pretty fun and balanced assassin but everyone's been hollering for his dumpstering for months.

This is the " i want Riot to allow my form of fun but dumpster everything i don't want to play against" argument that i don't like. If you want it your way, then you're going to have to accept all other tank and AP builds and Zed in your games without question. Considering that the exact opposite has happened and that no one wanted to play in this clown fiesta meta, your builds can't exist at all because the majority has spoken against them.

PopppyseedJul 11, 20161 votes

Jhin wasnt an example of off-meta builds, it was a counterpoint to the "marksman should have no secondary build". Tank ekko,Fizz, and Yi aren't examples of off-meta builds because...there meta. AP cait was off-meta because it wasnt a meta build at all for her. Even something simple like building manamune on Ashe can be off-meta.

ElikainJul 11, 20161 votes

One item replacement is not off-meta building. It's called adaptation. You're either attempting to adapt the champion you're playing closer to your play style or you're trying to answer your opponent's strategy. Suddenly building Banshee's Veil to counter that Veigar on a Marksman does not make it off-meta.

Mages have multiple build paths, either straight glass-cannon builds and relying on protection from their teams or scaling builds and not worrying about dying too much. One build offers early damage while the other one offers it late game. The trade off is "damage now and squishy" VS "damage later and pseudo-tanky".

Tanks have options to build full tank and be unkillable but deal no exceptional damage or they can go with bruiser builds.

Assassins can build full damage or they can build armor pen and damage. The trade-off here is super damage build VS mobility and moderate damage builds.

Marksmen can build traditional AD, Crit + AS items and some can even go with armor pen, damage and mobility.

Supports can go AP, can go semi-tanky or build full tank as well.

None of these are off-meta builds, they are just different variations in the build paths that are available to them. The fact that the norm is just a singular build and all others are "forgotten", does not make it off-meta.

ElikainJul 9, 20164 votes

Riot never enforced the meta. Don't spread misinformation. Morde rework, Cass, Azir and Yasuo were attempts to see if they could make someone else a duo laner, outside of the ADC + Support lane. But their experimentation showed that attempting to make such a champion or even balance to survive ranged match ups makes them inherently broken for all other lanes. The systems need to be more receptive of other roles and unfortunately, League has been balanced for years with preset roles on lanes. So this change isn't something that can be implemented in a patch or two.

They looked at how the pros were playing and started tuning the entire game towards pro play, like they're more important than the hundreds of thousands of players who pay the utilities at Riot's front office.

What does this have to do with anything? Riot balanced certain champions for pro play only a handful of times during the 7 years LoL has been around and most of the times, the stats they use is Plat+ with 30+ games played to estimate the champion's learning curve and see if they need changes in future patches. What good would it do if Riot attempted to balanced the game based on the worst ranked players in LoL? Where did you get the idea of this being more fun for everyone? Instead of worse players getting better, we all should stoop to their levels and enjoy the clown fiesta games?

They started creating champions specifically to fill certain roles, and thus tailoring them to that role.

What do you even mean by this? When was this ever not true? Every champion Riot created has had a specific primary role in mind and at least one secondary role to fill. Morgana, Zilean, Zyra, Vel'Koz, Karma, Brand were fully intended as mages but the community itself transitioned them to a support role, where they became damage supports. Lulu was the opposite. Envisioned as a support, she found her way into mid and top lanes. Trundle was also an oddball, Fiddlesticks, Annie, Malphite, Veigar...

The game is often won or lost in the pick phase," I've heard.

What does this mean? This exists in all multiplayer games, where a character pick is important. Do you mean to tell me that a team with proper composition should be on equal footing against a team made entirely of supports or assassins, for example? Would a TF2 team made entirely of Medics be able to beat a team made entirely of Soldiers? Would an Overwatch team made entirely of Mercys be able to beat a team of Pharahs?

What makes you think you cannot pick Teemo, if you understand his strengths and weaknesses and know how to outplay Rivens and Irelias at top? Or even play him mid/jungle? Pros are setting the trends with their LCS picks and it's your own fault for following them without giving it a second thought. If you hate being a sheep, don't follow the trends blindly and call it "meta enforcing".

Zero ShingetsuJul 9, 201611 votes

{quoted}

Riot never enforced the meta. Don't spread misinformation. Morde rework, Cass, Azir and Yasuo were attempts to see if they could make someone else a duo laner, outside of the ADC + Support lane. But their experimentation showed that attempting to make such a champion or even balance to survive ranged match ups makes them inherently broken for all other lanes. The systems need to be more receptive of other roles and unfortunately, League has been balanced for years with preset roles on lanes. So this change isn't something that can be implemented in a patch or two.

I'll get to this in my answer to your next question.

What do you even mean by this? When was this ever not true? Every champion Riot created has had a specific primary role in mind and at least one secondary role to fill. Morgana, Zilean, Zyra, Vel'Koz, Karma, Brand were fully intended as mages but the community itself transitioned them to a support role, where they became damage supports. Lulu was the opposite. Envisioned as a support, she found her way into mid and top lanes. Trundle was also an oddball, Fiddlesticks, Annie, Malphite, Veigar...

I don't mean roles. Roles are fine. I mean positions. Lanes. Riot isn't just making Fighters or Tanks or Mages anymore. They're making mid-laners, top-laners, junglers. Look at the previews for any of the last five or six champions and you'll see their lane right in the first paragraph. This says to me that Riot doesn't want you playing that champion ANYWHERE else, and proof of this is that they've taken active steps to shift even semi-popular out-of-meta picks away from viability.

For example, Support Skarner is less effective as now that his E slows down as it passes through units. Soraka is completely useless anywhere but support, whereas she used to be great mid or even top if you really tried. They tried to tone down MF's AP scaling to make AP Mid MF invalid, though I can still have decent luck with her if I really try. They tried to nerf Zyra's support strength before the mage rework, which ended up even breaking her mid. Lulu got specific nerfs because she was strong pretty much everywhere, but Riot ONLY wanted you to play her as a support.

It's not that they're enforcing that this caster with low HP and high damage is a Mage, it's that they're enforcing that they're mid. If something in the design ends up getting used to good effect by toplaners with that champion, they quickly "fix" it so that you can only play that champ mid. They discourage experimentation. They've even done this with items to a degree. I used to run one of the jungle items on my supports, before trinkets came in, because it gave me extra tankiness and a renewable ward. Then they made it so you HAD to take Smite to buy that item, even though it didn't directly interact with Smite, because they only wanted junglers to use it.

What does this mean? This exists in all multiplayer games, where a character pick is important. Do you mean to tell me that a team with proper composition should be on equal footing against a team made entirely of supports or assassins, for example? Would a TF2 team made entirely of Medics be able to beat a team made entirely of Soldiers? Would an Overwatch team made entirely of Mercys be able to beat a team of Pharahs?

That's not quite what I mean. In Overwatch, let's say you have a defense team with Reinhardt, Bastion, two Torbjorns, Mercy and Hanzo. On paper that's impossibly strong. But there are specific ways that good play can counter that setup. A good Genji can dash or sneak past their defenses and wreak enough havoc to get the rest of his team in, and if they can get one of those turrets or Reinhardt down, their fortunes change. A good Symmetra can whittle Reinhardt down through his shield and force him back so your Widowmaker can take out their Bastion and open up a push.

Overwatch games aren't decided by the picks, they're decided by the skill of each player with who they've picked. If you pick ALL Mercy you're going to have a hard time against a team of ALL Pharah, yes, but firstly that's very unlikely. Secondly, it's not impossible to win with that. If all the Mercy players are extremely good at Mercy it can be done. In League, there are some picks that almost guarantee a win in normals or low level ranked play, and Riot doesn't seem to care. Hell, there are some high-level picks that are the same way, hence the term "games are won and lost in the pick phase".

What makes you think you cannot pick Teemo, if you understand his strengths and weaknesses and know how to outplay Rivens and Irelias at top? Or even play him mid/jungle? Pros are setting the trends with their LCS picks and it's your own fault for following them without giving it a second thought. If you hate being a sheep, don't follow the trends blindly and call it "meta enforcing".

First I'd like to say I laughed out loud at the end of this statement, so thank you for that! To be honest, the concept of esports makes me ill as a gamer and I've never seen an LCS game in my life. With that out of the way, I'll answer your question: Right now, nothing is preventing that. But Teemo is an older champion. One they haven't reworked a great deal. Even when they did rework him, it was more... mechanical tweaks than a proper rework.

It's the newer champs that bug me. The ones that have their role and their items built right into their previews. It's Riot telling you before the champion even comes out, "Here's where you will play this champion." Back when League was new, you got a champ every other week and it was fun to experiment with them. Now there is no experimentation.

Take Illaoi. I hate her, but her kit is fun, and from the beginning I saw how she could be a dangerous tanky, pokey support. But the preview said she was a toplaner. Every time I tried to take her support, I was chewed out and called a troll. Even after myself and many others started having good games with her at support, people assumed we were trolls. In fact, people still sometimes rip into me for picking Support Illaoi.

Rammus, too. Rammus is an older champ made before the meta was really established to the degree it is today. He's built to support, the way his kit works. I had a nearly 80% ranked win rate with him at support one year, over ~120 games. But I'm called a troll every time I take him there. Why? Because when Riot talks about Rammus today, they call him a jungler. When they institute jungle changes, Rammus is one of the champions they reference. So the community believes he's a jungler and nothing else.

Sorry I got a bit long winded, but I hope that explains what I meant about the things you were unclear on.

ElikainJul 9, 20162 votes

Riot isn't just making Fighters or Tanks or Mages anymore. They're making mid-laners, top-laners, junglers

The reason why Riot is no longer mentioning the role but a lane is because they are paving the way to this kind of transition in the future. Taliyah is mentioned as a mid laner mage but she works as a support too. Aurelion Sol was intended as a mid mage but people took him jungle and even as a support. Zed is an AD assassin but he can take up a mid lane and even top. Hell, even jungle Zed works and he can go bot because of his inherent safe play style.

There is experimentation still but people take it for granted and think Riot is setting things in stone when they are making champions and that can't be farther from the truth. Play however you want to play but certain things won't work as you want it to work. Zyra's rework has brought up some concerns that having her up for a mage class update would inevitably sacrifice one of her roles because she had to be balanced around one and yet, she is still viable in both positions and she did end up being a bit too strong for a pokey damage support and had her numbers slightly adjusted. In a world where you don't want a champion to end up in a specific place and you assume they can fill multiple roles, if you want balance to exist, you have to make them OK and not great at both. Or if they are stronger in one, they are inevitably weaker in the other.

You can't have a perfect support and a mid laner, much like Lulu was. Lulu was sporting the damage of an AP carry (good base damage + ratios) and she had the utility of a support. Then people started playing Lulu on carry lanes and enjoyed more expensive items. That meant more utility and stronger damage - Lulu filled both roles perfectly on a single position.

It's the newer champs that bug me. The ones that have their role and their items built right into their previews.

I am not certain what you mean by this. Riot never made a champion and literally left you to figure out how they work and what items they are good with + positions they are good on. Champion Spotlights exist for these reasons. Champions are made for specific lanes / roles and recommended items are not builds set in stone. Champions are not made on a whim, they are made to bring something new to League and that something has to have a specific place where it fits. You can't simply say "we don't have this type of a champion so here's this guy. Go nuts, we don't care about his builds, he works with what you want him to work".

Rammus was never a support. His roles were top or jungle. The fact that he could have been a support in a certain time period was probably his hidden potential and that's up for players to discover and not for Riot to disclose. He wasn't made with a support position in mind so think of this as his hidden potential that you've had the pleasure of discovering yourself. You can't blame Riot for not having super exhaustive champion spotlights and trying to place them in all 5 lanes by force. No champion is viable in all positions and all lanes at once.

Soraka is still viable mid lane, much like Lulu was. She dumpsters on combo casters and her heals are boosted more with stronger AP items on hand. Granted, she works better as a support but that's the problem with champions that can cover multiple lanes. Champions that cover multiple roles cannot be equally viable across all of them.

Zero ShingetsuJul 9, 20168 votes

{quoted}

I am not certain what you mean by this. Riot never made a champion and literally left you to figure out how they work and what items they are good with + positions they are good on. Champion Spotlights exist for these reasons. Champions are made for specific lanes / roles and recommended items are not builds set in stone. Champions are not made on a whim, they are made to bring something new to League and that something has to have a specific place where it fits. You can't simply say "we don't have this type of a champion so here's this guy. Go nuts, we don't care about his builds, he works with what you want him to work".

In the old days, the spotlight would cover items that worked REALLY well with the champion, and just... what their abilities did. Then it grew into entire builds. Now they've started telling you what lane to play the champ in as well. I wouldn't even mind this so much if they didn't give us options to begin with. The item system seems to encourage pretty much anything. I can play Tank Teemo, and everyone tends to focus him anyway, so why not? But in reality, you're punished for stepping outside certain narrowly defined builds.

If it were a game like HotS, where there were no items, I'd be more comfortable with that setup. But the irony is that HotS allows for more play style-specific tweaks than League's rigid meta does, because the different traits you can pick allow you to shift your hero's focus a but. If I want to play Nova as a marksman I can. If I want to play Sonya damage, it's as viable as playing her as a tank. If I want to play Kharazim as a healer, an assassin or a brawler, these are all viable play styles depending on how I spec. To be honest, League would be more fun if it had a loosely enforced meta and little tweaks like these to let you fine tune to your preference, rather than giving us items and effectively telling us that certain items are off limits for certain champs.

ElikainJul 10, 20161 votes

I have a feeling that you want League to desperately be something that it's not. Champions have their predefined builds because they are not made on a whim, they are made with a specific lane and role in mind, with the option of at least being good at one other role as well, minimum. That means that certain items work great with them, certain items are OK and certain items will never work.

No one said Taliyah is a good support and yet, players saw the potential and played her there with a lot of success. Riot didn't mention this anywhere and people did experiment on their own and figured it out - exactly what you think the game lacks. So in what way is Riot exactly forcing the roles and lanes upon certain champions, when the meta was defined by players themselves and RIot balanced the game how players wanted to play it?

Champions don't scale with every stat in the game. Plain and simple. Mages have a few build options - to build full damage and rely on their team protection or build scaling items and never worry about a gank. You can also afford a certain defensive item that isn't damage oriented at all to help with survivability when the situation calls for it. But building mages full AD or full tank? Their class doesn't scale with those stats at all.

If i understood you correctly, you want the option of building literally anything on anyone and succeeding? What would be the point of having 131 champions at all? What would be the point of champion classes if a Mage can be a Tank and an AD with equal success rate? Does this mean that enchanter supports are a useless subclass because they work best with a lane partner? No, it does not.

To be honest, League would be more fun if it had a loosely enforced meta and little tweaks like these to let you fine tune to your preference, rather than giving us items and effectively telling us that certain items are off limits for certain champs.

This tells me that you can only enjoy a game while it's new and fresh and once it shows the signs of being competitive in the slightest, you start to lose interest. This is the wrong way to enjoy games. If you were hyped for Overwatch, you're going be disappointed in a few months when certain heroes require of you to pick a counter hero to answer the opponent's strategy - a hero you maybe don't want to play.

And if i understood you correctly, you're a streamer? Playing LoL because it's your job even when you don't want to, also massively contributes to you being fed up and then taking it out on League for whatever reason. You want League to change to your liking because you backed yourself into a corner where you think you cannot take a break from it or play something else to your liking.

The WhamboozlerJul 10, 20161 votes

Er... to intercede here, the OP's argument and this one kinda... clash.

The OP feels that the meta is defined strongly and champions are made to suit that meta now. For instance, Brand was built to be a mage, while older champs were designed to.... do stuff and people just sorta figured out their roles. What the heck WAS old Sion's role? No one knew because no one to this day really knows what old Sion was even supposed to DO. Was he a CC champ? A tank? A damage dealer? AD? AP? God, what a mess he was.

But now the meta is set. 1-1-2 and a jungler. Bot is ALWAYS an adc and a support. Mid is almost always a mage or assassin. Jungle and top are more diverse, but one most people will agree that one or even both of them needs to play a tank and/or bruiser for a good team comp overall. The OP then goes on to say that this means that anyone who is playing say support has only one or two champions available to them to pick who are the "best" supports... and that these champs are often the newer ones who were designed specifically to be a support. He's... not wrong. While oddball picks can do well or catch people with their pants down, Riot pretty consistently nerfs champs who fare very well outside of the roles they're "meant" for.

Now I'd personally say that Dynamic Queue kneecapped the game being an earnest competitive thing more than the narrow selection of top-tier champs for each role, but the OP isn't wrong. Of course a champion designed specifically to do something is better at it than a champion who wasn't but is able to accidentally. A top laner who can also support is probably an inferior support overall to say... Janna. If they're not, it's likely due to a mistake or oversight on Riot's part that they will correct to ensure that "pure supports" still have a place. This DOES leave many champions feeling like their role is set in stone by Riot. If they're good at someone beyond their role, they likely won't be for long. And if they're not... you were probably better off playing the champion that is designed for what role you've taken.

Does this mean off-meta champs or champs in off-meta roles can't win? Of course not. ADC freaking Anivia can win games. She's just at a large disadvantage for trying. Most people who are playing to try and win won't choose those sub-optimal choices. Most people spam the "best" picks over and over and over again.

In my opinion the problem would be solved if the champions were more balanced against each other, but in a game with over 100 champs this is unrealistic. Some poor bastards will just constantly sit on the tier of "why would you ever pick that?". It's sad, but unavoidable.

ElikainJul 10, 20161 votes

The meta right now did not exist in Season 1. Competing teams came up with their own compositions and strategies but Europe came up with ADC + Support, Mid Mage, Jungler and a Top laner and won a lot with it. The other teams simply adopted this strategy as the right way of playing League of Legends which in turn allowed them to adapt their strategies to the new way of playing League.

Players adopted this as the meta and Riot merely balanced the game in this direction. They did not change anything by force because everyone was happy with it and they have made recent attempts at trying to shift roles around the lanes, which resulted in champions coming out overpowered. This indicated that there are a lot of other systems that needed change instead of trying to adapt a champion to conform to a lane he wasn't designed to be in.

Junglers are specific with their summoner spell choice because Jungle is considered to be a lane of it's own and not an extra way for you to earn gold. This is further supported by the fact of map objectives that you have the power to secure with Smite and even Smite transitioning to be a dual Summoner Spell, allowing for ganks and skirmishes to be in your favor, rather than being strictly for non-champions. With this argument, i could well say that any lane for that matter is more or less locked out of their choices, as duo TP from top or mid is mandatory, Heal and Exhaust (sometimes Ignite) for bot and Flash being universal for all.

Malphite, for example, may be an inferior support against a Janna. Janna excels at negating damage and has exceptional peel which Malphite cannot compete with. However, an excellent counter to that would be a support champion who can break the shield frequently and force both parties to play defensive. Someone like Zyra, Brand, Vel'Koz for example. That's not to say Malphite doesn't have a place at being a support but just that against certain picks, he may be an ineffective as a laning partner, until teamfights start happening. Keep in mind that all 3 of these mentioned champions were not supports by design but that the community moved them in this direction and Riot allowed them to exist instead of curbing the trend to enforce "mages are only meant for mid" meta.

It's also certain that champions who transitioned to supports from mid lanes likely did so because they didn't have the necessary damage or item favor and that's why, having high base damages and poke is proven to be effective in lanes that want to farm up first. That was the reason why Annie was nerfed, Fiddlesticks was nerfed and why they both received buffs to their main roles because Riot did not mind them branching out BUT they did it for the wrong reasons and it was their weakness in their home lanes.

The WhamboozlerJul 10, 20161 votes

This just leads to the "rock paper scissors" effect, where there are a handful of champions for every role... usually one dominant one, one who counters the dominant one and one whom you pick when the dominant one is banned or preemptively countered.

ElikainJul 11, 20161 votes

Hard counters to champions don't exist in League. In DotA they do, which leads to "you win or lose in pick phase" effect. The reason why Riot is doing class updates is because they are trying to give every champion one strategic niche that no other champion can replicate, that can be the reason why you would want this champion in your team and not someone else.

That would eliminate "champions are only as good as their stats" problem. Sometimes, the meta might not be right for the champions to be played in and that's fine. However, playing only 30 champions out of 131 is a problem.

One of the reasons why Riot won't increase the number of bans is because of this problem. Only a "handful" of champions are being played so even allowing for 4 more bans might eliminate all potential problem champions and leave only the underdogs. But this might not sound as such a bad thing as well because other champions that are not being played right now might be in the spotlight. This reasoning is neutral to me and i see the potential of being beneficial to champion diversity however, 10 champions might be perma-benched constantly to allow others to be played in this manner.

The WhamboozlerJul 12, 20161 votes

I fail to see the problem with more bans. It would force people to use other champions. What's the point of having over a hundred champs if only 30 or so are worth a crap? Increasing the number of bans only makes sense, seeing how much the champ roster has inflated since bans were first introduced.

Does this mean that in an LCS game it might be possible for the teams to nuke almost every champ for a role? Eh, kinda. Is that a bad thing? NO! How fun would a game be to watch where both teams banned 5 junglers, forcing each team to run an oddball, off-meta jungler or something? Oh sure, they can drop all 5 bans to try and shut off a well-known pro from his favorite champions... but doesn't that just encourage the "best players in the world" to have WIDE champ pools, or to train in oddball picks that no one will think to ban? Sure you're the best yasuo/zed/Riven/Lee Sin of all time, but if that's all you can do at a pro level, maybe you don't belong on a pro team? All of this seems like it would make games more fun to watch. The only one who would be mad is the guy who wants to play NOTHING but the most top tier meta champs he can and who is vexed that they're always banned. The pros will adapt if they want to stay pros.

As for roles and counters. There is usually one or two "best" champs for a role... ESPECIALLY if the role is in bot lane for some reason. There is hardly EVER a reason to use a champ outside of the handful of top-tier OP ones or the ones who specifically do well against the top tier picks. This usually narrows the pool of champs for a role down to 3 or 4 at best... the "best" champs and the champs who fare well against the "best" champs. It's boring. Meta shifts and balance changes only ever really change which three are top tier, not how many are viable.

Now, team strategy can change this as some teams want champs for specific reasons even if they are overall inferior... say a strong push comp or a wombo comp. But in most games the team HAS no strategy... it's just five people all picking what they want to play. In this situation there is RARELY a reason to pick anything but the meta picks... which is exactly what people do.

And lastly... "hard" counters most certainly do exist in league. Not to the level of DotA perhaps, but there are plenty of champs who utterly curb-stomp others barring some massive screw up. TRY to play Udyr top versus a half-decent Quinn. I would consider a hard-counter in league to be a champion who either neutralizes your champion's purpose/strengths or who's mechanics make them impossible for you to play against unless they completely drop the ball or they have help. I don't know what you consider a hard-counter... but that's my definition. The best examples I can give are kite champions vs melee champions with poor mobility. For instance, Janna is a hard counter to people like Darius, Skarner and Udyr. Can she kill them? No. Can she prevent them from doing ANYTHING? Yeah, unless she screws up. Not sure what your definition of a hard-counter is, but if it's much worse than that I wouldn't say it's a counter so much as it is unfair and poorly designed.

ElikainJul 12, 20161 votes

If the system is faulty and ultimately, only 30 champions are always picked, then you're fixing nothing by allowing for more bans at the current time. You're not increasing the number of champions played at one moment as you're banning 4 usual picks and forcing 4 lesser known picks to replace them.

Riot is doing Class Updates for this very reason. They need to go through all classes and once they're done, they'll take a look if the picks are in the places they want and then reconsider increasing the number of bans.

All of this seems like it would make games more fun to watch. The only one who would be mad is the guy who wants to play NOTHING but the most top tier meta champs he can and who is vexed that they're always banned. The pros will adapt if they want to stay pros.

This seems to me like you want the number of champions to forcefully increase in order to make LCS more fun. Granted, League is a spectator's sport but trying to appeal to the audience with forced clown fiestas and making pros into dancing monkeys so that we get a chuckle here or there is also a bad way of playing League. If they are playing on a professional level, it doesn't mean they have to play Teemo if they don't consider him as a valid pick.

The WhamboozlerJul 13, 20161 votes

There is a VAST difference between four extra bans out of 100+ champs and "forced to play Teemo every game".

ElikainJul 13, 20161 votes

Regardless of how many bans you get, you are only trading one champs for others. This means that you're intentionally benching popular champions (and champions that do see play) in order to force everyone else to play less popular picks.

"Forced to play Teemo" is just an example. If you literally ban 10 supports (out of possible 12 by primary role in LoL client) you'd only be left with Nunu and Sona (the least popular of supports). If these were the only supports available, then support players have no choice in who they play, now do they?

Under the current system, where the majority of champ pool is governed by the stats they have instead of their strategic uniqueness, increasing the number of bans now will end up with the same result. No net gain for champion popularity outside of being forced to play something else when all other popular picks get banned.

##Which means that i am not against more bans (1 per player) but at present, increasing the number of bans would get us nowhere and therefore i don't see a reason why to force the change now.

The WhamboozlerJul 14, 20161 votes

So you're not against it, but you don't see the reason to do it? That doesn't compute, man. Either you see a reason for it and that's why you think it's a good idea, or you don't and you're against it.

Unless you don't care about the issue one way or the other, in which case I ask why you're posting in a topic about the idea.

eastcoastblazeJul 11, 20161 votes

What about the guy reworking morde, who said and i quote "play him bot or dont play him at all" when people where questioning the w change and how it would be enforcing a meta

ElikainJul 11, 20161 votes

If you're quoting him, then find his post. Otherwise you're paraphrasing it.

eastcoastblazeJul 11, 20161 votes

Not a paraphrase. It was his comment on the boards from at least a year ago or so. Ill have to go digging

redfeenixJul 9, 20162 votes

Well said I hate that riot is enforcing rules. Well never know whether double jungle or trilanes will ever become meta. Why? Cuz they have fixed roles to limit creativity.

Just because those 5 roles are meta now, doesn't mean it has to be for the rest of time.

ZT XperimentorJul 10, 20161 votes

Spot on, not many people remember champions getting rebalanced to play specific roles; like blitzcrank being relegated to support when he was a top lane tank, or shen being shunted top lane from the jungle with one of their first jungle 'optimization' sweeps.

ShonjlJul 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Yes. I think it really took off when Riot started enforcing a meta. They looked at how the pros were playing and started tuning the entire game towards pro play, like they're more important than the hundreds of thousands of players who pay the utilities at Riot's front office. As a result, all the experimentation and fun was sapped from the game. They started creating champions specifically to fill certain roles, and thus tailoring them to that role. Then it became, as you say, about picking the champion most undeniably made to play your role.

"The game is often won or lost in the pick phase," I've heard. That's absurd. In a balanced, fun game, the pick phase shouldn't mean more than 20% of the odds to win the game. Player skill and teamwork should win or lose the game. If pick phase is that important, something has gone horribly wrong on the design front. This is just one of many problems Riot needs to step away from the summer broadcasts to correct before their game starts losing players by the hundreds.

Games have been won at champ select before even S6. Which is funny since one of Riot's oldest philosophys were they would never allow champ select to be a factor in a game losing or winning. Even though it is entirely that now. Its to the point now that the only reason you play is basically because people don't wanna get reported. It used to be fun when you could experiment or at least use the entire pool of available champs to a lane and have fun. Not the only use Lucy/Ez on bot lane, use Zed of midlane and so forth.

eastcoastblazeJul 11, 20161 votes

Riot has always made Balance changes around pro play. The original jungle spawn change in season 3 or 4 was based on pro play. Theyve always balanced around high elo

Serpents EmbraceJul 9, 201616 votes

It's funny, 'cause I've been seeing people make this argument since Season 1.

Like...?

SaiannaJul 10, 20164 votes

Argument about Riot started meddling with meta?

If so then..

It's funny, 'cause you are lying.

Those threads/opinions showed somewhere in early S3

WolfeurJul 9, 201615 votes

Yeah, it was better before, I remember when people used to complain about OTHER broken champs!

It was really the best meta back in season <insert season you started playing in>

SaiannaJul 10, 20164 votes

Before they were broken because of poor balancing.

Now they are broken on purpose.

See the difference?

NarvuntienJul 9, 201612 votes

Um I am unsure about how now is different from any other time in league history.

There was no time in the past where just picking the OP champs was not a viable strategy.

ModCaptainMårvelousJul 9, 20164 votes

Rose-tinted goggles.

If anything picks are more diverse now than they were back then but people refuse to acknowledge it because don't you dare talk about the golden child that way.

The WhamboozlerJul 10, 20162 votes

More diverse? Arguable.

More fun? No.

Gone are the days of Dunkmaster Yi. Of Xin Zhao being a man and of the terror that was the "full revive boogaloo". The dunk squad is mia and the wolf pack is no longer breaking the meta. Most of the vids I see about league now are people who are laboring through playing it like it's a frustrating job... people who are talking about all the problems they have with it now (and POSSIBLY how they'd fix them) or just people saying they're quiting the game because of how frustrating it's become/lame dynamic queue is/awful balance is now. The game lost it's fun somehow along the way and almost EVERYONE seems to be feeling it.

Whatever you feel is the issue it seems VERY obvious that the game is a lot less fun to a lot of people. Old friends of mine have just... left. Lost interest in playing the game. Long-time players have bailed or speak all the time about how crap it's all become. People who literally make a living by streaming/posting videos about the game have given it up despite it basically being their JOB. I don't know how to make it fun again... Maybe it was just a result of it being new and people being excited about it.

But it's NOT fun anymore. It's stress, frustration and depression. The good in it is gone. The people who speak highly of the game now tend to be people newer to it... while older players from the earlier seasons seem to overall share the same sadness, frustration or just plain ennui that I myself have towards the game now. Call it jaded... rose-tinted or just nostalgia, but if you're not having fun playing a game... why are you playing that game? If you're having fun with it great. Riot is clearly doing well by you. But don't speak down to people who aren't and tell them they're wrong.

The game IS worse now than it ever was... to them. This is a thread made to talk about that feeling. If all you can say is "rose-tinted goggles" and "blah blah golden child" you're just doing it to be a jerk. The people here are posting because they loved the game and they don't anymore. You're telling them their opinion is wrong. It's not. That's what "opinion" means.

ModCaptainMårvelousJul 9, 201612 votes

This is beyond wrong.

Every season has always been about the most powerful pick. You are joking if you honestly think Season 1-3 was anymore diverse than Season 4-6. Hell, Season 5-6 have been extremely diverse especially considering the amount of viable and powerful picks there are. And no, "WELL THIS SEASON IS WORSE" is flat out wrong. You talk about balance changes because Riot has been tweaking champs rather than flat out gutting them as they did in Season 1/Season 2. Ekko still good? Awesome, so that means they're tweaking instead of destroying. Eve good in S2? Lol goodbye bitch.

If you think that the game hasn't always been about power picks you and I have been playing different games for the past seven years.

ShonjlJul 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

This is beyond wrong.

Every season has always been about the most powerful pick. You are joking if you honestly think Season 1-3 was anymore diverse than Season 4-6. Hell, Season 5-6 have been extremely diverse especially considering the amount of viable and powerful picks there are. And no, "WELL THIS SEASON IS WORSE" is flat out wrong. You talk about balance changes because Riot has been tweaking champs rather than flat out gutting them as they did in Season 1/Season 2. Ekko still good? Awesome, so that means they're tweaking instead of destroying. Eve good in S2? Lol goodbye bitch.

If you think that the game hasn't always been about power picks you and I have been playing different games for the past seven years.

To be fair, Ekko is broken from a kit level, so nothing short of outright changing his kit will fix him. They could gut his base and scaling and he still would be fairly strong. Personally that alone should reason a harsh nerf to him and not just moving power around. He gets too much for free. Free damage, free MS, free slows, spamable slows, free get out of jail free card. To be honest, what he has should be split into 2 or even 3 champs, all of that should never be in 1 champ.

Same could be said about Thresh as well. Riot could make it so he did no damage or even healed the enemy with any of his autos or abilities and he still would be a top tier support due to how he brings literally everything and the kitchen sink to the table. Tanky, shielding, an escape, an initiate, aoe disruption/heavy slow, and he does it all better than champs that focus on those things in their kit.

NautJul 9, 20168 votes

I'm surprised no one else pointed it out. Monogamy refers to having only one wife. The word you're looking for is monotony.

TeslynJul 9, 20166 votes

Did we forget about the Warmog meta?
http://media.tumblr.com/08d1d9a519cba2b941f11eede4ac3cd0/tumblr_inline_mwqlvp16le1r22yj6.gif

Riot has began changing things for a need then they shifted into change for change sake. although i like the mentality of evolving, but i question alot of things as well.. But i have never thought volibear was OP actually balanced and fun. I respect the community vote on the creation of that champ to be created.

the saddest parts was when riot started pulling in on themselves. i give them credit they do throw a bone every now and then, but seems that they let things fly until it is so broken that the community has to put a 90% ban rate on a champ. looking at you broke ass kassadin back in the day.

and still annoys me about Malz's delay shield. if you hit him and drop his shield he still has some protection. https://youtu.be/fNFk3pNyiq8 this is an example of the random BS that they put in the game for hidden strengths in champions. like when elise could repel farther than her actual range and other things like these crutches they put on champions.

LuggJul 9, 20165 votes

{quoted}

it is now just a monogamy of who can pick more broken champs. Even if you outplay the enemy team, if they have more broken champs than your team, most of the time they will win.

That hits it right on the nail. There are so many champs in the game now that Riot can't keep them properly balanced. This is why 5 bans per team is absolutely necessary now. There are always at least 10 broken champs at any moment now. Plus it would improve champion diversity at every level.

Tis a nice dayJul 9, 20163 votes

Was there ever a point in league where this wasn't the case?

LuggJul 10, 20163 votes

The tank meta (IMHO) was the most balanced state the game ever had. You couldn't just pick a faceroll champ and win games, you needed to actually use micro and macro play to win games. Plus the games were usually close and MUCH more fun, instead of the current stupid "be ahead all game and make one mistake and you lose the game" meta.

Tis a nice dayJul 10, 20161 votes

I remember the horrors of Sejuani though.

Pr0MeisterJul 9, 20164 votes

I don't know about broken champs but the games now really are snowbally as hell.

Part of that is the gajillion percentage dmg or healing buffs via masteries which translate 'tons of dmg' in-game. Add the new dragons to that (esp infernal) and making a turnaround seems far-fetched. That's one of the bad points in league that was augmented this season with the damage creep- a worse player can and will consistently beat a better player by stats alone. Even a perfect Zed ult is useless if the enemy adc has lifesteal enough to leech back half your dmg with lfiesteal and block some of it with Phantom.

This season I think the problems are with masteries/items/dragons, not OP champions per se. That's why we don't have a tank meta but a tank item meta.

ERQR2Jul 9, 20164 votes

The game has changed drastically in the past year. The only thing i could think of, that riot could do for a good change to league, is to stop nerfing items according to champions abilities to do good with that item. Imo, i think riot should nerf champions instead. My reasoning for saying this, is because whenever you nerf an item, yes you are reducing the ability for a champion to be a pain in the ass, but you are also causing another champion to be even more useless than the champion you mainly focused the nerf upon. That is the only thing i see defective in league right now, everything else i think is being done well. I like how they are enforcing the game to be more team oriented, by passing down the new dragons, and the rift herald. I also think riot should try to focus more on solo q players opinions, over nerfing stuff according to what they see in pro play. Pro play is completely different from solo q. In pro play you actually have people who play together for a living, whom have better communication than people who play in solo q.

arrowhead21kJul 9, 20162 votes

yeah it was totally about skill back in the day I mean look at that skill https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gI1aeS5H1Vs you might as well have been blind as lee sin to think that league used to be more balanced than it is now.