How to fix AD Assassins destroying Tanks in one easy step

Rebonack·Jan 19, 2015·86 votes·5,514 views

%Armor pen now applies only to auto-attacks like it did back in early Season 1.

If AD Assassins want %Shred they can get Cleaver. Giving them access to two forms of %Pen is overkill.

68 Comments

cshakesJan 19, 201517 votes

RIP Legolas Varus

RebonackJan 19, 201514 votes

{quoted}

RIP Legolas Varus

Just to make Varus feel a little better:

item 3035 UNIQUE passive: Your basic attacks (including OnHit effects) ignore 35% of the target's resistance.

Oh God the downvotes...

Maybe I should clarify. I was talking about a potential buff to his Tank-Busting OnHit to make up for the loss of his Q %pen. You guys like popping Blight stacks, right?

cshakesJan 19, 201519 votes

{quoted}

Just to make Varus feel a little better:

UNIQUE passive: Your basic attacks (including OnHit effects) ignore 35% of the target's resistance.

"Legolas Varus" is the fan term for stacking AD and CDR and having Piercing Arrow become the next iteration of the dreaded Nidalee Spear.

DecaedeusJan 19, 20156 votes

Sorry buddy. The next variation of the dreaded Nidalee spear is already here. Jayce .

ChrisB5Jan 19, 20156 votes

Dude Jayce has always had potential, but nobody gives him a chance. His spells are very expensive. Early game he can't do much damage, but late game he can really pick up if played properly. He's always been strong, but like nid's spears, easy to hide behind minions from ): Though his Q applying AOE is nice! I've gotten doubles from a single Q, even seen a triple from someone else haha. I just wish he wasn't an asshole... he stole from Viktor and one of the reasons Viktor felt compelled to tear away from his humanity. Poor guy.... I know the feeling all too well. Blitzcrank , you would've been in better hands....

-ChrisB5

JustBoneBrookJan 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Dude has always had potential, but nobody gives him a chance. His spells are very expensive. Early game he can't do much damage, but late game he can really pick up if played properly. He's always been strong, but like nid's spears, easy to hide behind minions from ): Though his Q applying AOE is nice! I've gotten doubles from a single Q, even seen a triple from someone else haha. I just wish he wasn't an asshole... he stole from and one of the reasons Viktor felt compelled to tear away from his humanity. Poor guy.... I know the feeling all too well. , you would've been in better hands....

-ChrisB5

Jayce she be a tank / fighter not a poke / carry / support.

ChrisB5Jan 19, 20151 votes

Be more specific. You tagged Jayce but said she as if nid. Jayce is an AD champ who can be built as a bruiser, tank, or poke. Nid can be poke APC, support, or bruiser. You specified her spear, not her role.

EdbwnJan 19, 20151 votes

I think he meant "should" instead of "she"

ChrisB5Jan 19, 20151 votes

Ah that makes a lot more sense lol.

trexmixGJan 19, 20154 votes

{quoted}

"Legolas Varus" is the fan term for stacking AD and CDR and having Piercing Arrow become the next iteration of the dreaded Nidalee Spear.

thanks wikipedia ahahahaah

(sorry but that sounds like an encyclopedia definition)

Epilogue of LifeJan 19, 20158 votes

I personally would prefer to give set bonuses(like epic/legendary items in RPGs), like if you got item 3083 + item 3068 + item 3143 , you get XXX amount of bonus tanky stats, maybe even straight out % dmg reduction. That way, a bruiser with 3 dmg and 1 tank item won't 1v5 your team, but tanks still become immortal once they reach full build.

MathbalnaseJan 19, 201518 votes

{quoted}

tanks still become immortal

No. Bad. Go to your room.

Epilogue of LifeJan 19, 201515 votes

I like how you only quote a section of what I say. That's basically bending MY words to mean what you want them to mean.

MathbalnaseJan 19, 20156 votes

No, those words - your words - meaning exactly, precisely, and nothing other than what those words mean, would be BAD FOR THE GAME. There is no reasonable interpretation of those words that would not be bad for the game. There is no reasonable interpretation of the sentence from which those words were quoted that would not be bad for the game. There is no reasonable interpretation of the paragraph including that sentence that would not be bad for the game. Because that sentence and that paragraph include those words with their inherent meanings.

You have presented a bad idea. Congratulations. Move on.

Epilogue of LifeJan 19, 201513 votes

Lmfao, it's called a hyperbole, if you passed middle school, you might actually know what it means.

ChrisB5Jan 19, 201511 votes

It's okay, some of us know what you meant. Mathbalnase is just silliness.

MathbalnaseJan 19, 20152 votes

See above re: 'reasonable interpretation' This concept accommodates the use of hyperbole, where and as such would be reasonable.

straight4freeJan 19, 20154 votes

{quoted}

See above re: 'reasonable interpretation' This concept accommodates the use of hyperbole, where and as such would be reasonable.

You don't know what the principle of charity is, so I'm going to assume you're a preteen.

Am I correct?

MathbalnaseJan 20, 20151 votes

The principle of charity extends only so far as reasonable interpretations.

If you think there is a reasonable interpretation that would be healthy for the game, let's talk about that, instead of some asinine implicit ad hominem.

IS1a442cd69a169ed293a39Jan 20, 20152 votes

{quoted}

The principle of charity extends only so far as reasonable interpretations.

If you think there is a reasonable interpretation that would be healthy for the game, let's talk about that, instead of some asinine implicit ad hominem.

Stop, you look really stupid.

Tin TarantinoJan 20, 20152 votes

You can't use hyperbole on the internet, people take everything literally, like a very busy kleptomaniac.

KingsgraveJan 19, 20156 votes

This still doesn't really effect Zed or Yasuo in the slightest which are 2 of the biggest abusers of item 3035

This change also heavily nerfs Pantheon Urgot which I don't see as fair but oh well

Auz the RipperJan 19, 20152 votes

It would affect zed alot. The majority of his damage comes from his skills; Only about a third the damage of a typical zed combo is from AAs (disbarring gimmicks like Crit Zed), half at maximum.

Brenticus12Jan 20, 20151 votes

This would affect Zed quite alot.

Yasuo, not sure. He gets 50% Bonus Armor pen from his ult and LW makes it even more broken...

RebonackJan 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

This would affect Zed quite alot.

Yasuo, not sure. He gets 50% Bonus Armor pen from his ult and LW makes it even more broken...

Samurai Bob is an ADC to be quite honest, in the same sense that Yi or Fiora is. He's the sort of champion that should be ruining a Tank's day.

Brenticus12Jan 20, 20151 votes

Yeah, I know he's an MADC like Fiora, Trynd, Yi, Jax etc and is actually one of the more balanced ones with the least damage output (But he reaches his late game power faster). I love the guy and he's alot more interesting to play than Fiora and Trynd (Yi and Jax are still cool in my books).

HawkefireJan 19, 20156 votes

I personally prefer changing lw to %bonus armor instead and making it cost money (it should cost a lot of cash....it is supposed to be a lategame item, yet it is one of the cheapest in the game.).

RebonackJan 19, 20158 votes

{quoted}

I personally prefer changing lw to %bonus armor instead and making it cost money (it should cost a lot of cash....it is supposed to be a lategame item, yet it is one of the cheapest in the game.).

This wouldn't fix the problem.

Riot has said that if they went to %Bonus on Whisper it would need to be an insane value, somewhere in the 58% range to work. Against a squishy who just has Hourglass or GA plus runes as their only armor source, 58% pen would still nail them for somewhere on the order of 45 armor reduction. Combine that with armor pen runes and Yomama's ghostblade and soft targets are still getting shredded down to nearly nothing.

On Tanks you would be encouraged to build Ninja Tabi and then just stack HP, which would make BotRK even more obnoxious than it is already.

Argomecha PerdixJan 20, 20159 votes

{quoted}

Yomama's ghostblade

I laughed so hard.

Kowe The EwokJan 19, 20154 votes

Sounds solid to me.

But I dare say that it nerfs too man other AD champions, thus they won't do it.

RebonackJan 19, 20157 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kowe The Ewok,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MVhZTfk5,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-01-19T16:18:58.524+0000)

Sounds solid to me.

But I dare say that it nerfs too man other AD champions, thus they won't do it.

LeeSin "But muh skillshots.'

JunkοJan 19, 20152 votes

I actually really like this idea.

Blue Collar BearJan 19, 20152 votes

To be honest, I feel this would be a good change. ADCs will still be able to deal relevant damage. Team fights would feel less bursty.

What about modified auto attacks, such as Garen Q / Rengar Q?

junglerboy16Jan 19, 20156 votes

they act as normal AAs for the purpose of crit and other on hit effects, so they would be treated like AAs for this new idea.

Blue Collar BearJan 19, 20152 votes

While the new idea does mitigate some of the current issues, you would still have problems with champions who deal damage in AAs, primarily assassins.

RebonackJan 19, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fluffysaurus Rex,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MVhZTfk5,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2015-01-19T18:42:05.098+0000)

While the new idea does mitigate some of the current issues, you would still have problems with champions who deal damage in AAs, primarily assassins.

Said Assassins still deal a pretty sizable chunk of their damage through their skills. Losing armor pen (and 30 AD) for those skills would be a major hit to their burst damage.

Blue Collar BearJan 19, 20151 votes

I can see some assassins losing out on the 30 AD, and having a rough time coping with that loss plus the lack of armor pen. I'm just seeing Rengar who can still do his R - Q - Hydra - Q combo and melting someone's face. Some champions do not lose out.

I think this setup would reward champions who already have innate armor shred or penetration, and make them more unique picks. I never see Taric picked for his awesome AOE armor reduction. It's always, "hurr hurr, 5 AD comp gg."

junglerboy16Jan 19, 20152 votes

Only problem is that any AD caster who built it could still hurt really hard with their AAs. Zed could still cut you to pieces with it, because most of his damage in his combo comes from BotRK and AAs after one shuriken and shadow slash, so this would only help with a fraction of his damage.

RebonackJan 19, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Only problem is that any AD caster who built it could still hurt really hard with their AAs. Zed could still cut you to pieces with it, because most of his damage in his combo comes from BotRK and AAs after one shuriken and shadow slash, so this would only help with a fraction of his damage.

But Zed would be losing 30 AD off his build AND his Ult blowing up would no longer be ignoring a big chunk of your armor as well. BotRK's active would no longer be getting amplified by by Whisper, nor would his Q/E. That's a pretty major hit to his damage output.

This change also heavily nerfs which I don't see as fair but oh well

Well, Urgot is slated for a remake. Making his Q apply OnHit effects would allow him to still build Whisper. Or he could just be content with Black Cleaver. It would be a pretty huge nerf to Pantheon, though. I don't dispute that for a moment. But that would be a case where individual champions can be buffed after things settle out.

LordCrazyGlueJan 20, 20152 votes

AD Comps are a problem and the problem is this. To counter LW you need to stack health much like to counter Void Staff you stack health. Difference is that an AD comp will then buy BotRk and your health stacking idea is dead. Where as the Void Staff double AP comp has no answer to your health stacking. the answer is simple delete BotRK and move on.

LelouchtheGreatJan 20, 20152 votes

AD assassins don't destroy tanks unless 1. the Assassin is super fed and the tank is not (which is a situation that happens with any type of champion when they are far ahead) or 2. the "tank" is building hydra, trinity, or some other damage item instead of actual tank items.

RebonackJan 20, 20152 votes

You're attempting to fix an issue that doesn't exist. Bursty AD assassin champ, which u clearly got beat the hell out of by one based on u making this post alone, try works wonders.

Are you seriously suggesting that someone build Thornmail against champions that commonly grab Whisper and Yomama's Ghostblade as core? Champions who deal well over 80% of their damage through skills or OnHit effects that aren't reflected by Thormail's passive?

Do you even grasp what armor penetration does?

Malix FarwinJan 19, 20151 votes

Removing DFG without fixing AD issue is just going to force people to gravitate to AD champs. Will 5.2 be the AD meta?

tainteddazeJan 19, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MVhZTfk5,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-01-19T17:52:19.786+0000)

Removing DFG without fixing AD issue is just going to force people to gravitate to AD champs. Will 5.2 be the AD meta?

no just assassin mages will be removed from play unless buffs to stats comes along with the patch, but who knows what riot is going to or not going to buff with the removal of dfg. I don't really see them buffing people that much either cause then it would just make them overpowered in skill sets instead of using a item. This removal is going to be a interesting thing for riot here and i am 100% certain they will fail doing it and the game will turn to more sustain mages that don't really need dfg to do good. While the resourceless champions still crush everything in the game and recieve no balance updates that they needed since s4.

Yandere CarryJan 20, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MVhZTfk5,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-01-19T17:52:19.786+0000)

Removing DFG without fixing AD issue is just going to force people to gravitate to AD champs. Will 5.2 be the AD meta?

I think it'd be AD + non DFG style mids... So things like lux/cass/Ori.... oh what a surprise... it's ori again.

Silents429Jan 20, 20151 votes

And how would this effect Jarvans combo thats suppose to shred a teams armor?

HauntJan 20, 20151 votes

Wouldn't that make ADCs more annoying than they already are? More attack speed for them on an already flawed item?

Seriously, it should affect BONUS armor not ALL armor.

AetherKingdomJan 20, 20151 votes

RIP in peace all non marksmen AD champs

Subject 5Jan 20, 20151 votes

Why is a non marksman AD champ focusing a tank? O_o

KonidiasJan 20, 20151 votes

Let's do an experiment:

Take Quinn vs Nasus top lane and see who wins. Then come back here and talk about how much we need to nerf ADs because they are destroying tanks too easily.

I'll tell you what's not fun. Attacking a champ almost nonstop just to see them sustain it all back and laugh at you. Not being able to even kill a champ with multiple all in bursts when you are the same level as that champion. Is that what you want? You want to just tank all the damage and not even bother worrying about dying?

I mean where do we draw the line? Any nerfs to armor pen or AD right now would mean Nasus stacking armor would be invulnerable to AD.