Really though.. Vayne for example is around 50% win rate meaning she lose just as much as she wins. Its like you beleive she is balanced if she lose more games haha ahri,riven, etc.. all around 50% but if they are 40% then they need buffs. Its not like any of them are around 70%-80 like sej and kass.
Sightless663 votesIts not like any of them are around 70%-80 like sej and kass.
Uh, what? Kassadin never broke a 50% winrate. I'm serious, look up his history. He never even broke 50%. Neither did Azir, but he was so broken that he had a 100% pick or ban patch. Sejuani topped out at 55%. 70%... Dude, not even release Xin Zhao had those numbers.
A 50% winrate doesn't mean much if a champion is hard to pick up and learn, particularly if that champion is very popular. The players who haven't played the champion much lose quite often and bring the champion's winrate down. It's why Vayne having a 51-52% winrate in tandem with a 40% pick rate is very concerning. If she's being played that much, while supposedly being a somewhat difficult champion to play, then that says that she's way too effective in the hands of players who are skilled with her. Players who have never touched her before are earning 49.5% winrates, while skilled players are winning upwards of 56%. So, yeah, there's a problem.
Her weaknesses are not proportional to her strengths right now. She does need to be taken down a peg, or every other ADC needs buffing relative to her. Either way, something has to change.
Anomander2 votesWell is that 50% at bronze with less then 20 games played or is that 50% at diamond with 200+ games played as that champion.
Win rate without additional information can be very misleading. As high skill cap champions can be very OP with a lower win rate over all. However when you play 100+ games as that champion you might end with a 65% win rate. But at only 20 games the same champion might have a sub 45% win rate.
A lot more information is needed to determine actual Power level of a champion then just win rate.
Lets look at vayne since you brought her up.
Vayne has a overall win rate of 52%. However when you start looking at number of games and her win rate you get a better idea of her overall strength.
Anyone who has 100+ games with her has a win rate of over 53% which is still a balanced win rate. Vayne has a low skill cap and it shows as players with only 5+ games still have a above 50% winrate.
What does that mean for vayne? It means that she is easy to play and yet still a very strong champion. This doesn't mean she is OP or that she needs nerfs. This will very based on meta.
Vayne has become stronger over the last few patches with nerfs to armor and the new juggernaut items benefiting more from health stacking. These were indirect buffs for vayne.
There are a lot of things that have to be looked at to determine balance and win rate is a important but not All Encompassing variable
Live2LetDie1 votesWell is that 50% at bronze with less then 20 games played or is that 50% at diamond with 200+ games played as that champion.
Win rate without additional information can be very misleading. As high skill cap champions can be very OP with a lower win rate over all. However when you play 100+ games as that champion you might end with a 65% win rate. But at only 20 games the same champion might have a sub 45% win rate.
A lot more information is needed to determine actual Power level of a champion then just win rate.
Lets look at vayne since you brought her up.
Vayne has a overall win rate of 52%. However when you start looking at number of games and her win rate you get a better idea of her overall strength.
Anyone who has 100+ games with her has a win rate of over 53% which is still a balanced win rate. Vayne has a low skill cap and it shows as players with only 5+ games still have a above 50% winrate.
What does that mean for vayne? It means that she is easy to play and yet still a very strong champion. This doesn't mean she is OP or that she needs nerfs. This will very based on meta.
Vayne has become stronger over the last few patches with nerfs to armor and the new juggernaut items benefiting more from health stacking. These were indirect buffs for vayne.
There are a lot of things that have to be looked at to determine balance and win rate is a important but not All Encompassing variable
Agreed and this is why you pointed out that she is not op just a meta champ right now. She is 50% in all elos for a reason but is the most played champ as well. Meta is stack health tanks meaning she is the most viable choice to counter these juggernauts but is that a bad thing? She has an extremely weak early game to compensate for the late game.
Anomander2 votesI think something does need tweeked though. Her pick rate combined with her win rate means that she is removing other adc's from viability. This doesn't mean nerfs it just means changes. Something either in her kit or in the overall meta needs to change to add viability to other adc's. I have no clue what needs to change. But something definatly does need to change. She is a little too consistent in this meta and I am not sure if we need change the overall meta or change her kit.
A buff to assassins wouldn't do it as Vayne has great escape and safety with ult and tumble. Tank buffs won't do it as she is already the tank shredder. Vayne is really hard to balance around as she has such a great kit.
Binxy Prime1 votesThe stats people are using are from champion.gg which only takes Plat+ games into account. But yes she also has a 50% win rate or higher even in Bronze.
Anomander1 votesI know. In fact all the data I used was from champion.gg. The point was to show that win rate is not a all encompassing data point and is only part of determining balance.
Kat Head2 votesVayne is at a 39% Pickrate over the last 7 days, that is the highest I can remember any champ being for a very long time.
Today she is at a 40% Pickrate.
Live2LetDie1 votes[{quoted}](name=Kat Head,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MQaxxaiQ,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-09-06T20:55:42.384+0000)
Vayne is at a 39% Pickrate over the last 7 days, that is the highest I can remember any champ being for a very long time.
Today she is at a 40% Pickrate.
That is because she is a meta champ right now. Tanks are all stacking health making her the best choice to go against them. Her weak early game though and lack of mobility, when a pink is placed, compensate for this.
Kat Head1 votesThat is because she is a meta champ right now. Tanks are all stacking health making her the best choice to go against them. Her weak early game though and lack of mobility, when a pink is placed, compensate for this.
Those arguments sound very similar to the ones made for Katarina when the meta favored her, Kat has since received 5 different nerfs in Season 5 alone.
Lugg2 votesThe problem is that Kalista, Jinx, Vayne, and Tristana are ALL OP right now and basically the only ADCs played. So that is why they have the around 50% win rate, they are cancelling each other out.
Godaren2 votesThe problem is that Kalista, Jinx, Vayne, and Tristana are ALL OP right now and basically the only ADCs played. So that is why they have the around 50% win rate, they are cancelling each other out.
No they are not, none of those are really op but graves,lucian,corki, caitlyn are all trash that fall off the second you leave lane. op was like tristana last season no one you mentioned is op. Ashe and sivir are probably better then trist to because they bring more then just damage.
Lugg1 votesKalista is so broken she has a 75% ban rate in pro play. If you are going to argue that she isn't OP, i'm sorry but you are clueless. Jinx, Vayne, and Tris all have way too strong an early game for hyper carries.
Graves is weak since they nerfed his Q for no good reason. He is supposed to be a lane bully and he can't bully anyone now. Lucian is good at all stages of the game, but he isn't really strong at any stage either. Corki is a poke ADC and has a monster mid game. Cait has a great early and late game, she falls off mid some though.
Ashe and Sivir will always be good just from the engage their ults have.
Godaren1 votesKalista is so broken she has a 75% ban rate in pro play. If you are going to argue that she isn't OP, i'm sorry but you are clueless. Jinx, Vayne, and Tris all have way too strong an early game for hyper carries.
Graves is weak since they nerfed his Q for no good reason. He is supposed to be a lane bully and he can't bully anyone now. Lucian is good at all stages of the game, but he isn't really strong at any stage either. Corki is a poke ADC and has a monster mid game. Cait has a great early and late game, she falls off mid some though.
Ashe and Sivir will always be good just from the engage their ults have.
As a plat adc main I am just saying what I notice in my games. And that is corki is useless out of lane, caitlyns suck and lose hard to jinx, graves and lucian are to weak at their jobs to bully anyone, lane bully's exist and can crush jinx vayne trist the main being draven or ashe but a lot of adcs are very weak. And using pro play to justify a champ being op is very silly since lots of champions pros use well are not as good where 80-90% of the player base resides best example is azir or lee sin. No one complained about jinx or the new trist before now don't see what has changed they are not op most adcs just suck.
Lugg1 votesI have to disagree with you on Corki. He isn't a great late game champ, but he can really dominate mid game and be a poke champ late.
I do agree that Graves and Lucian need to be buffed back to bully status. That is one reason the top four are out of control.
People have ALWAYS complained about Jinx since her release. She has always been strong. Tris was so broken that they had to rework her. It took a bit for people to adjust to her new kit, but she is again OP. This mainly due to the stupid reset thing.
Godaren1 votesI have to disagree with you on Corki. He isn't a great late game champ, but he can really dominate mid game and be a poke champ late.
I do agree that Graves and Lucian need to be buffed back to bully status. That is one reason the top four are out of control.
People have ALWAYS complained about Jinx since her release. She has always been strong. Tris was so broken that they had to rework her. It took a bit for people to adjust to her new kit, but she is again OP. This mainly due to the stupid reset thing.
Jinx wasn't really big last season and she isn't really a big problem (yes i am bias i know) whenever the other team picks her I usually go malzahar or zed mid and can just 100-0 her every fight. Any adc with no mobility is easy to kill less your team is just bad or very behind. Vayne is problematic don't agree on anyone else tho. When enemy teams pick jinx I never usually have problems winning vs her. Hard engage like vi annie or malphite will wreck her.
Lugg1 votesThat's because last season Graves and Lucian could shut her down early and delay her powerspike. If she has any peel from her support at all, Jinx is a monster. If she gets QSS, Malz is a free kill for her. Zed does the 100-0 thing on every squishy in the game, so that's nothing new.
Plus Jinx has one of the most OP passives in the game. One kill or assist and you have just lost the fight.
Godaren1 votesThat's because last season Graves and Lucian could shut her down early and delay her powerspike. If she has any peel from her support at all, Jinx is a monster. If she gets QSS, Malz is a free kill for her. Zed does the 100-0 thing on every squishy in the game, so that's nothing new.
Plus Jinx has one of the most OP passives in the game. One kill or assist and you have just lost the fight.
stopped reading when you said zed 100-0s every squishy in the game lol vayne kayle zilean annie lissandra sivir? I'm guessing you dont play mid or adc
Lugg1 votesIf Zed has 3 or more kills, he will delete any carry in 3 seconds with ease. BTW, I have about a 70% win rate mid, so I do know what I'm talking about.
Durzaka2 votesBecause her pick rate is so incredibly high.
When a champion has a high pick rate, you naturally expect them to have a slightly lower than average win rate, but she has a perfect win rate despite having a 30+% win rate.
insaiyanbacca1 votesactually no one in the game has ever hit 70% winrate, not even pre hotfix lb or release xin, and iirc people are saying that shes got like a 54% winrate, which stuff like patch 4.20 weedwick has something like 56% at his peak and was considered broken
Mathbalnase1 votesSimple win rate is almost meaningless. Almost.
Win rate, ban rate, play rate, win/play/ban rate by division, by game length, by role, by build, by skill order, by all of the above combined. Those can start to tell you something meaningful. And I mean just that: start.
Matezoide1 votesWin-rate alone is not the point.
It is Win + Pick-Rate. Having a 40% pick and still winning 50% of games is unnaceptable.