AP - Every Stat matters, AD - DAMAGE!!!!

FreshAsFebreze··43 votes·4,727 views

All opinions welcome, plus I'm just killing some time. In my own view, it seems like AP champs have to build an item for each stat. Obviously, ability power is the key but you need magic pen since maw and merc are so efficient, you need cooldown reduction since most cooldowns are 8-10 seconds, you need mana and probably mana regen, and if you don't build zhonyas........well we all know what happens if you don't build zhonyas. On the opposite side, for AD, you build items for damage, damage, and more damage. Critical strike? enhances damages. Attack speed? more damage per second. Lifesteal? return that damage so i can do more damage. Thats about it. So, while AP champs have to think about the best way to be teamfight efficient, these ability spamming auto-attacking AD champs are having their way.

89 Comments

Athron30 votes

Sucks to be playing ap's atm, they feel like garbage. But i still refuse to partake in this boring right click spamming meta.

HighH111 votes

I used to be like you to. Now I have level 5 Yi and Udyr. You either die an AP mage or live long enough to see yourself become the AFK farmer

RespectPlus1 votes

Life is cruel

Athron7 votes

Gonna die a an Ap mage all the way, right clicking never appealed to me and never will. I'd play a different game if i was interested in right clicking.

Divewing2 votes

Who needs positioning, mana management, aim, timing, and cooldown management, when you can right click on things and they die :D

The Sword Saint12 votes

Attack speed = cooldown reduction for auto attacks Critical strike = ad version of deathcap power multiplication Armor pen = magic pen lifesteal = spellvamp

qss is the ad version of zhonias = an item active used defensively, except ap champs can also buy the qss while ad champs cant afford to get a zhonias

mana is something every mana using champion needs to manage, with ad champions buying items like frozen heart and iceborn gauntlet

ad champions inherently have more tower pushing power while ap champions have more tower seiging power

etc.

Madra4 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Sword Dancer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MQMKoMU1,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-03-14T13:38:19.412+0000)

Attack speed = cooldown reduction for auto attacks Critical strike = ad version of deathcap power multiplication Armor pen = magic pen lifesteal = spellvamp

qss is the ad version of zhonias = an item active used defensively, except ap champs can also buy the qss while ad champs cant afford to get a zhonias

mana is something every mana using champion needs to manage, with ad champions buying items like frozen heart and iceborn gauntlet

ad champions inherently have more tower pushing power while ap champions have more tower seiging power

etc.

Did you really compare lifesteal to spellvamp? Have you not seen Varus, Caitlyn and Corki siege a tower?

RoodToob7 votes

Caitlyn was reworked to be a "siege marksman"to be fair, that's her identity now

Varus and cork are played more as AD casters than ADCs, like a xerath, ziggs or lux

ADCs meaning auto attack, crits with ats speed and such

As for spellvamp, Riot said mages and adcs have different play styles which is why one has life steal while spell vamp is so exclusive. A mage (normally) is longer range or have their damage in bursts. Those who don't (Vlad cass Ryze) have plenty of healing, whats basically life steal for a mage (case e) or a shield when their burst is ready (ryze passive)

Also, the reason mages have slightly harder build paths is that they're abilities are more impacting and their items do unique things, such as

  1. percent health burn item 3151
  2. slows item 3116
  3. zhonyas item 3157
  4. ludens item 3285
  5. are mr reduction item 3001
  6. spell blade item 3100
  7. mana shield with mana ap scaling item 3003 item 3040
  8. stacking over time of health mana and APitem 3027
  9. AP on hit item 3115
  10. percent missing mana region item 3174
  11. grievous woundsitem 3165
  12. and finally (something AD does not have at all) Full magic penetration, (not bonus) item 3135

Now Ad items have some of these things, but at a cost like item 3036 item 3033, all adcs would prefer the former but sometimes must give it up for the latter

Saint Millay15 votes

AP Item / AD Equivalent

  1. percent health burn item 3151 / item 3153 (% health damage, faster, scales better)
  2. slows item 3116 / item 3022
  3. zhonyas item 3157 / item 3139
  4. ludens item 3285 / item 3087
  5. are mr reduction item 3001 / item 3071
  6. spell blade item 3100 / item 3078 or item 3025
  7. mana shield with mana ap scaling item 3040 / item 3155 or item 3072
  8. stacking over time of health mana and APitem 3027 / item 3071 (without all that pesky stacking over time + penetration and CDR)
  9. AP on hit item 3115 / Every single item
  10. percent missing mana region item 3174 / item 3508
  11. grievous woundsitem 3165 / item 3123
  12. and finally (something AD does not have at all) Full magic penetration, (not bonus) item 3135
  1. Free Assassination Buff AP No Item / AD item 3147
  2. Free AOE Attacks AP ... / AD item 3085 or item 3074
  3. Bonus Range AP ... / AD item 3094
  4. Reduce Enemy Damage by Flat % AP ... / item 3046
RoodToob2 votes

Many of those do do that yea, but this is about ADCs, and theres no way adcs get item 3022 item 3071 item 3147 item 3074,

Also, item 3153 item 3085item 3078 is kit reliant, extremely so, While item 3025 is a one man wonder ADC item, if you can call it that. , plus you list separate things for item 3085 item 3094 item 3087 item 3046 but no adcs can get more than two, and even that drops needed items, also as stated item 3123 requires a sacrifice meanwhile item 3165 is nice on most mid laners as first item. Other examples such asitem 3072 or item 3155 dont compare well to item 3040 seeing as one gives mana on your list, but you are right APs don't have that. Lastly all ADCs must have on hit damage or else they aren't useful, which kinda is why i showed item 3115 because it's not a mages play style typically to auto a lot, they have more impacting abilities

Anyway my point wasn't to show that mages are better off, its their items are more unique than say ADC's (not all ADs, ADCs Bruisers and AD assassins are different class which is why other items such as item 3022 exist for the bruisers or item 3147 for the assassins). I am of the opinion Riot made mages weaker with the Marksman update because of the flashy new ADCs and because they had a mage update planned afterwards

DrCyanide17 votes

Attack speed = cooldown reduction for auto attacks Critical strike = ad version of deathcap power multiplication

So item 3087 item 3085 item 3094 item 3046 are all the equivalent of item 3089 + item 3108 ? Want to explain to me how that's a fair deal for the AP side again?

lifesteal = spellvamp

I have yet to see a mage with item 3152 heal up as much as an ADC with any completed lifesteal item.

The Sword Saint3 votes

It's not about ad and ap having the same power in the same areas or about some issue of 'fairness', it's about the statement in the op - which is that ad champions only have to consider doing more damage when choosing items. The fact of that matter is that ad champions also have to consider other stats than raw ad and like mages have the option of itemizing for unique effects like phantom dancer damage reduction, which kind of last whisper to get, do I go for the fire cannon to poke towers or the shiv for wave clearing, do I get essence reaver for cooldown reduction or the ie for bigger crits, etc.

doombotMECHA1 votes

so, besides pd mitigation, do i do more Damage to high-health targets, or more Damage to healing targets? Do i do more Damage to towers or do i do more Damage to minion waves....

I'm starting to notice a theme here. dunno tho...

TurquoiseYoshi2 votes

You've never seen a good Ryze or Cassio?

DrCyanide2 votes

So you're saying mages need Spellvamp built into their kit plus an item to keep up with any ADC with a Lifesteal item?

Paletongue4 votes

both of them have built in heals/spell vamp, hardly counts.

TurquoiseYoshi1 votes

He said he had never seen a mage out-spellvamp an ADC's lifesteal. I gave an example of two that can. That's it.

Ratbert3 votes

But he said with WOTA, which cass and ryze rarely get.

Astôlfo6 votes

Oh look, I can do that too! Overgeneralistic statements, check! Incorrect assumptions, check! Biased argument and phrasing, check! Cherrypicking, check! Anecdotes as evidence, check! Hmm, what else did I leave out?

FreshAsFebreze4 votes

Missed 2 things.

  1. You're pretty immature.
  2. You need to find a dictionary and learn what opinion means.
Astôlfo4 votes

Look at all the QQers frantically downvoting me, how amusing. Anyways, just having a bit of fun at your expense since you gave me so much to work with ;) And for an opinion, you sure are trying to promote it like it's fact :^)

FreshAsFebreze4 votes

Well seeing that you're statement just makes you look pretty.....not gonna say it. You do realize there's probably 100s of articles saying quite the opposite for AD champs? The boards is one gigantic argument site. Did you go try to bring them down, or is this the only way you feel good about yourself?

Astôlfo4 votes

I mean the boards is a huge ball of spam, QQ, random memes, some reasonable balance talk here and there, and then a few other things. I don't really expect much out of the boards, I just find it amusing how far people can try to go at times. And sure, if I notice dumb threads, then I'll point it out. Why? I just find it amusing. And it's not anywhere close to a way I pursue happiness, so... Nice assumptions. ;)

FreshAsFebreze4 votes

How far do you think I'm going? Asking for opinions on the matter? Holy shit called the CIA on this one, we got a security breach.

RedCyclone5 votes

I am often resorting to rushing a Void staff as my second item on most AP's now, because if you don't you are going to be doing so little damage to anyone who has brought a shred of MR and god forbid if one of those MR items are completed

Evewynn2 votes

before luden's, it was pretty much every Mage's first or second rushed item, after the deathcap Rush fell out of favor

Used To Main Zed5 votes

Let's think about this...

AD champs have AD. AP champs have AP.

AD is typically capped at ~400max discounting Jhin and other gimmick passives i.e. Hecarim or Rammus.

AP is typically capped at ~800max discounting Veigar and others i.e. Cass or Thresh (yes thresh). So AP champs can build more flat damage. Surely that isn't fair? Especially with Rabadons %increase. Incorrect. AD champs have IE, with a %increase of damage. The two stats come in completely different forms but perform their jobs well.

AD casters use CDR. AP casters use CDR.

AD casters use mana. AP casters use mana. AD champs and AP champs BOTH use and benefit from Mana/Regen. Sorry but AD champs use mana just as often as AP champs, discounting AA-reliant champs.

AD has penetration. AP has penetration.

AP has zhonyas. AD has maw. We all know what happens if you don't buy zhonyas? You die. We all know what happens if you don't buy maw? You die.

Each class has nearly identical requirements. Sure they have their respective differences but if they didn't then it would completely defeat the purpose of having two classes of damage.

If AD offered the EXACT SAME BENEFITS as AP, why not just use AP? Conversely, if AP offered the EXACT SAME BENEFITS as AD, why not just use AD?

I don't believe either class is superior/inferior.

I think people need to stop comparing the classes and realize, if you want to play a champ that benefits from maw... Play an AD champ. If you want zhonyas, play AP. But comparing the two and saying AP doesn't have the right number of options to compete with AD is fairly ignorant, no offense meant to you.

skullzx713 votes

You're blatantly Ignoring the fact that that 800 AP usually translates to ~500 damage, and if you went straight AP you're missing out on CDR and Mana Regen, plus AP damage is heavily gated by CD's

Not to mention a LOT of AD champions have nearly 100% scaling on abilities plus 100% on auto attacks, so they're throwing out that 400 damage about once or twice a second, while having to do nothing for it. There's no aiming for basic attacks, It's all lock-ons, whereas for AP, usualy skillshots have the better scalings.

If you want to compare look at everything.

doombotMECHA1 votes

also adcs honestly dont need mana lategame like you just need rightclick and sometimes summoners. just heal with lifesteal, kill with autoattacks, and live by not mucking up your positioning.

Auz the Ripper1 votes

Not disagreeing with your main point, But a 100% bonus AD ratio is roughly equivalent to a 60% AP ratio based on gold efficiency. Which is a pretty average ratio

Crits on the other hand are equal to about a 120% AP ratio (150% with IE)

5050BS4 votes

I hate the champs that have to build ONE thing. Riven, Fiora = AD = DAMAGE = TANK Tahm, Vol = TANK = DAMAGE

For AP we have those that can kill fast and easy BUT are paper Akali, Fizz, Veigar = AP = DAMAGE = NOT A TANK

LordGeovanni2 votes

id say invisibility and untargetablity counts toward psudeo tankynes in the same way that rivens 2-3 second vulnerability in between shields works. and tahm and voli tank = damage is far more conditional than any of those other things. first things first is voli and tahm have less damage than carries but carries have less health and defenses which evens it off in terms of fighting same with every tank except the ones with long cooldowns and small base damages

FreshAsFebreze3 votes

Quick side note, I'm not saying do away with AD champs for most of you who came rushing to their defense. I'm saying the game doesn't have balance between the two damage types. There's a reason most lanes are becoming AD heavy. AP hardly exists top lane anymore except for your occasional ryze or vlad. Jungle, elise is still strong and gragas is making some noise, but mostly for his tankability. Mid, there's still a good amount of AP there so no compaints. Bot lane.......need I say more. So AD has main control of at least 3 out of 5 lanes (ADC, Jungle, Top). Supports are becoming more tank, at least in my games and Zed and Yasuo are growing in popularity. Minus bans.

It Hertz When IP1 votes

What'd you expect from bot lane? Utility supports get nerfed for going mid and Riot consistently shits on sustain supports for being "uninteractive". All you're left with is tanky initiators/peelers.

flibitydoo3 votes

...except cdr is a stat roughly every champion (except for non-caster adcs both melee and ranged) cares about. Tanks, supports and AD assassins (such as nocturne or rengar) care greatly about CDR and will itemize heavily into those. It's not a "ap mage stat". It's an everyone stat.

and there's a thing called armour pen you conveniently left out of your post, despite bringing up mag pen as a stat that matters. And comparatively, there is substantially far greater armour items than there are MR items to deal with. At least try to make your post sound unbiased?

and then there's the lifesteal- What exactly do you mean by return that damage so I can do more damage? lifesteal doesn't uhhh.... do return damage? It's not thornmail. It's lifesteal: your attacks provide health based on damage dealt. It's a defensive tool similar to buying health regen on a champion (except it requires a victim to attack). It's a defensive sustain option just like how max mana/ max regen provides sustain for a caster (I hesitate to say mage, since again, tanks and supports do care about mana as well and also jayce who I would class as not a tank or a support). And the comparison between lifesteal and mana regen becomes even greater on certain casters, where mana/regen becomes literal sustain (healing) when certain abilities are used (such as swain or ahri or soraka).

Also, here's a link to the wiki http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Mercury's_Treads if you notice under cost analysis, mercury treads are 94% gold efficient (aka not cost efficient unless you factor in tenacity, who's value perpetually changes based on circumstance). And a lot of players have been forgoing these boots since you can already nab a good deal of tenacity off of the defensive tree (which is why any tank buys merc treads in the first place, you run a quick check when buying to see what cc the enemy has, then you decide if it's worth it).

and Maw of Malmortius actually sits at 99% cost efficiency until the passive is popped (which means that if you aren't taking magic damage, then the MR stat isn't being used and it rapidly drops below 100% efficiency). The thing about maw though, is it's not an item that anyone would rush first to maximize damage output. It's a reactive item for when you anticipate the enemy will be bursting you down with heavy magic damage. Most assassins would much rather be grabbing the almighty longsword, then building them into youmous or the new duskblade (or hydra). And most ADCS would rather build into IE/ER and then follow up with their attackspeed item.

And AD champions have to care about what items they buy as well: after core AD items (AD champions do care about dishing out their damage of course), you need to build reactively to your opponent (otherwise you lose one teamfight and then deathtimers and then there goes your towers and there goes your nexus): Heavy armor? go get some pen Zed? go grab a QSS Leblanc? go grab a hexdrinker juggernaut fed? frozen mallet works wonders against garen poke? you might be able to heal back some of that caitlyn headshot with lifesteal basically, what I'm saying is that there are decisions to be made with AD. It's not just build pure damage. An ADC is expected to deal damage- which is why their core item build (usually big ad item+big attackspeed+crits item) is there. A similar case exists with mages- they don't blanket cover all stats in their builds. Usually they buy their core items (archangels+roa, athenes/morello/frostqueens (is this still a thing? is spooky ghosts mid still a thing?), liandries/rylais, ludens/abyssal scepter), then they too must decide if they want to invest in more ap with a deathcap or perhaps go for a void staff or hourglass or rylais or ludens or abysal scepter.

And finally, you're arguing that APs need to itemize towards every stat that affects their to contribute... and then you say that ADs need to itemize both AD, attackspeed and critical strike chance... which just means that ADs need to use every autoattack based stat possible as well to increase their DPS.... just like what you argued with casters using every spell-based stat (except for spellvamp, which is only purchased on champions who care about sustain) perhaps you were trying to say that mages can contribute more than just damage, they contribute utility such as CC, buffs and support (in the form of healing/shielding). So what? Is your argument that ADs are dealing too much damage? because you just said that ADs are just damage (like that's all they do, that's all they have). So... you want AP to provide more damage than AD on top of all of the utility? You want a playstyle entirely dedicated to dealing damage to not be the top tier damage dealer? That's terrible! That's what leads to imbalance. What's next, you want thresh to outheal soraka now? It's that kind of logic that leads to Nautilus/malphite/Poppy 2.0 where we have a champion that provides immense cc, tankiness and as of recently 100-0 damage. A champion that generalises in everything without weakness of any type-but ore importantly, one who outclasses everyone at their jobs. Why pick a tank like sion who gives cc and tankiness when you could pick naut? And after your issue with AD and AP: why pick any AD champion if AP does more damage while providing utility?

Perhaps you aren't saying any of that, in which case what are you trying to say then? Because you have a lot of incorrect statements and what sounds like a lot of frustration otherwise.

FROScountered2 votes

Its maybe because most of the good AD carry have no mana or only focus on auto attacking .

Turdong lite3 votes

{quoted}

Its maybe because most of the good AD carry have no mana or only focus on auto attacking .

there are no adcs that dont use mana and almost all of them rely pretty heavily on their skills to enable them.

FROScountered1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Turdong lite,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MQMKoMU1,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2016-03-14T20:25:43.458+0000)

there are no adcs that dont use mana and almost all of them rely pretty heavily on their skills to enable them.

Zed ad carry use no mana , aatrox ad carry use no mana , garen ad carry tank use no mana , yasuo use no mana , rengar use no mana , renekton use no mana , tryndamere use no mana , shyvana use no mana , riven use no mana , etc ... ADC doesnt mean marksman it mean ATTACK DAMAGE CARRY SO I DONT TALK ONLY ABOUT MARKSMAN .

AlwaysByMySide2 votes

{quoted}

Zed ad carry use no mana , aatrox ad carry use no mana , garen ad carry tank use no mana , yasuo use no mana , rengar use no mana , renekton use no mana , tryndamere use no mana , shyvana use no mana , riven use no mana , etc ... ADC doesnt mean marksman it mean ATTACK DAMAGE CARRY SO I DONT TALK ONLY ABOUT MARKSMAN .

Zed isn't an ADC in any way.

Aatrox isn't good.

Garen isn't an ADC.

Yasuo is okay right now, but he's not as good as the best bot lane marksmen.

Rengar isn't an ADC.

Renekton isn't an ADC.

Tryndamere is once again okay right now, but he's outnumbered by the ADCs that use mana.

Shyvana isn't an ADC.

Riven isn't an ADC.

So is it okay to ignore everything you say? Because this statement of yours was extremely stupid.

AlwaysByMySide1 votes

{quoted}

Its maybe because most of the good AD carry have no mana or only focus on auto attacking .

Sivir is one of the best ADCs right now and she's more mana hungry than most mages.

Graves is also ability-reliant and mana hungry.

So is Jhin, or Corki, or Lucian, or Ezreal (who buys a fucking Tear of the Goddess).

In fact, unless you're including ADC Morde (who is shit and doesn't exist anymore), there is not a single bot lane ADC (I'm going to assume you weren't implying that Tryndamere and Yasuo were the best ADCs right now, because that would be very silly) that doesn't use mana.

Buttigieg 20202 votes

I don't see a difference....

You build ap for DAMAGE You build CDr to get DAMAGE out faster You build mana to pump out DAMAGE for longer periods of time You build magic pen for DAMAGE

When you are a damage carry, you tend to want damage.

Shahamut1 votes

And yet, aside from Jhin, I havent seen an adc with over 800 AD... 800 AP full build is pretty doable.

FreshAsFebreze3 votes

Full build rarely happens these days. So unless you build a item 3089 right away, ADs are probably going to have an equivalent stat number

Shahamut2 votes

If you have a bloodthirster 75 AD (3700g) and an IE 65AD (3600g) and lvl 18 (we will say average 110 AD) and 15 AD from runes, total AD is 265.

AP user has Rabadon's 120 AP (3800g) and Rod of Ages, 120 AP (3000g) and 15 from Runes. Total AP 255*1.35= 344 AP. Not too similar if you ask me.

crippler383 votes

100% of that ad is going onto auto attacks (more if you get crits) while less than 100% is going on most abilities, not including ad scaling abilities and such.

Basically the point is building AD gives your abilities more damage and your basic attacks more damage, while building AP gives you a higher number but generally less of that number is being used as most abilities don't pack a 100% scaling

Trundle Bundle1 votes

This. AP is not equivalent to AD. A case can be made for AoE making the argument grayer, but AD AoE is far from nonexistent.

AD always has autos for a 100% ratio, at a frequent rate. AP rarely ever has a 100% coefficient, and when it does it's usually at a very low rate of use.

Trundle Bundle2 votes

Perhaps you should explain why you think AP and AD are equivalent at 1:1

FreshAsFebreze2 votes

If you build 4 items with the highest base stat (no passives or actives), leave one slot for item 3089 and one slot for item 3031 and one slot for boots, an AP build is item 3285 (100) + item 3116 (100) + item 3157 (100) + whatever 80 item item 3165 for example. So, that's 380. For AD, its item 3147 , item 3072 , item 3812 , and item 3139 . Thats 300 AD. An 80 point difference between the two isn't much and probably favors AD.

Shahamut2 votes

Abilities typically have some or all of the following:

  1. Better range

  2. High base damages

  3. Soft CC

  4. Hard CC

  5. Area of Effect.

Its hard to compare it side by side since each ability is different. :/

Trundle Bundle2 votes

Even just going by what he said, comparing late game AP to AD, AD gets more value out of less stats because of auto attacks. There are in game constraints on it, and AoE becomes a point of contention, but AD ALWAYS has an option for a 1:1 ratio (autos), whereas AP is rarely ever 1:1, although it can be higher. So his argument simply doesn't work.

And in the case of ADCs even, AD gets heavily amplified so the raw numbers aren't going to line up just looking at the two scores.

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