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Damage needs to be lowered.

GigglesO··63 votes·2,450 views

The reason isn't inherently obvious either.

A huge section of the boards is defending how high damage is because "we have to deal with the adc's" "Tanks have to be killable" and all this other stuff...

Well the truth is that instabursting the enemy doesn't show any skill expression. There is only "I pressed 2 buttons gg". When damage is lower, more skills are needed to properly play the game, and one of those is micromovements.

Adc's damage is high enough that they don't have to kite or use micro-movements to be effective. The reason that bruisers historically beat the shit out of adc's is because an adc's main skill was micromovements. The better they were at kiting, the higher the MMR the adc could achieve. Bruisers were not quite held to the same standards. Though tank itemization bruisers saw lesser gains though micromvements because they weren't punished as hard. Now that damage is so insanely high adc's just get to stand there, its the common "heh must take skill to right click" joke. It also means that melees aren't able to do their jobs without being able to be blatantly op to the point where if the adc can stand still they win, and if the melee can insta-nuke the adc they win.

So Lets get on with the above points. If damage is lower adc's don't heal as much through lifesteal, and that micro skill expression is what allows either class the melee/ranged to win. Lets be real, tanks will have more ignore-able damage if it is lowered, which sure they will take longer to kill, but it won't be impossible to kill them. Instead of a 3 second fight it will be a 4-6 ohh boy, atleast adc's will be forced to micro-move unlike they are now.

Lowering damage won't just instantly create a tank meta. You know what makes a tank meta? When tanks deal too much damage, because then its a free win. Guess whos damage would also be lowered. FUCKING TANKS.

As a suggestion, the runes are the easiest place to hit. The game was fairly less complained about even with higher than previous damage last season. Now it is just out of control.

TLDR: Damage needs be lowered because micro-movements no longer contribute enough to the skill of champions. Damage makes it too easy to just stand still and nuke someone without any skill other than "I hit you first, even though I wasn't positioned properly"

41 Comments

datfatguy17 votes

This is a point that is being well discussed at the moment. Damage is becoming disgusting.

GigglesO10 votes

It is just really sad because nothing is being done about it. There are so many things that change from low damage to high damage metas.

Sure too low of damage is shit because then everyone just build tank and nothing happens, but on the other side you remove a lot of skill expression when damage is too high. It also makes the game infuriating to play when losing.

Origami Kaiju10 votes

It seems crazy that team fights are essentially over in 2-5 seconds. When tanks are actually tanks, fights last much longer - and are in my opinion more nuanced and exciting.

H00KIE6 votes

Yeah I love being penta'd by a master yi in less than 10 seconds, I envy his skill tbh

doombotMECHA7 votes

In addition, damage metas make comp boring to watch because the "fights" are just a team pulling the trigger after so many minutes of posturing.

ZT Xperimentor3 votes

So much of this, there's no skill to be displayed when you can't even do a rotation of spells.

FurriesAreHot8 votes

As an ADC main, I played ADC because kiting was fun. Can I have my kiting back? And, teamfights that last over a minute or 2, without the involvement of Stasis?

Yara01 votes

Rip Ashe

Madsin257 votes

Just think back to what they did to nasus.

Literally doubled his damage output to the point where no top laner can match him.

Still barely gets over a 50% W/R because ADCS.

Pool Party Nasus7 votes

As someone with terrible reflexes, this season has been very hard. Back in S7, I could manage to outplay enemies in longer fights by strategically analyzing my surroundings and carefuly make decisions.

Now I just blow up in 2 secondes without being able to really do something. This makes the game less fun, and me more reliant on my teammates.

ReshiKillim5 votes

In my opinion, one of the most problematic things is item 3087

Because when it crits, it's as much magic damage as a melee duskblade's phys damage proc, without IE, against up to five people. Without an infinity edge.

The amount of damage Stattik deals should be perfectly fine to lower, because against tanks it doesn't make that much of a difference, while it's a massive chunk to everyone squishy.

So nerfing the proc damage wouldn't be a real game changer when fighting tanks, but instead takes a chunks a chunk out of overall instant burst from champions that don't need it to perform their role well. Not only would it help level the playing field for both other crit builds, but also for other squishy roles.

Strugglers would also be much easier to clean up rather than just nerfing anyone that starts to edge ahead of the pack.

GigglesO2 votes

Or we could make it so that rapid fire and shiv atleast don't stack...

ReshiKillim2 votes

Personally, I think the best option would be buffing rapidfire so it can crit and does shiv's current damage, while reducing shiv's damage a little, as well as making them not stack their procs. So it's more a decision of taking single target burst vs taking multitarget damage, rather than just building both because there's no reason not to.

Phantom dancer, logically speaking, should be a pretty core item on most of the champions that use them, since it gives great stats and has a great passive. But shiv + rapidfire just does too much damage to too many people from too far away, so it's not.

GigglesO3 votes

Well why would you build defensive type items, when you can just instaburst the enemy?

doombotMECHA2 votes

Yeah IDK why they don't, I think they used to be exclusive

ReshiKillim2 votes

They did use to be exclusive, then Riot changed it when marksmen were during a rough spot, and now that the problems that caused it are gone, the change hasn't been reverted.

y0r1ck1 votes

Those problems aren't gone, they're just covered by a band aid

saltran1 votes

And also the Guinso 1 ítem power spyke.

Salson4 votes

It's not just the new Runes, the removal of resists from Runes also contributed to the damage creep. But I agree, damage has become way too high.

They should lower it by some 5-10% based on champ/class. Add item 1054's minion killing passive to other Doran items and increase it to 10. Should help with last-hitting without adding needless champ damage.

Jaspers2 votes

{quoted}

It's not just the new Runes, the removal of resists from Runes also contributed to the damage creep.

All of my rune pages before the new stuff had 9 armour and 9 MR. Every one of them. When Riot did the Runes Reforged patch note they said:

"Our old rune system gave champions a lot of raw base stats, and especially early game those stats heavily impact the feeling of basic actions, like last-hitting and jungle clears. We want a lot of the instincts players have about the game to remain consistent, so we're pumping a lot of base stats directly back into the champions themselves. For the most part, this means Health, Armor, or Attack Damage, but we've also taken this opportunity to introduce a new stat into the game: bonus Attack Speed at level 1."

All my rune pages had 9 armour and 9 MR. Yet you know what Midlane mages got in their compensation? Some HP and HP growth stat. Nearly every other champ that wasn't a midlane mage got armour, most AD got base AD stat increase. Heimerdinger had 19 base armour at level 1. 19. He has the one of the lowest base HP in the game and they increase that by 12 hp. Anivia is the same. Caitlyn who also has low HP has 32 armour level 1 and she got that in the compensation buffs.

It was so weird.

Dasdi961 votes

{quoted}

All of my rune pages before the new stuff had 9 armour and 9 MR. Every one of them. When Riot did the Runes Reforged patch note they said:

"Our old rune system gave champions a lot of raw base stats, and especially early game those stats heavily impact the feeling of basic actions, like last-hitting and jungle clears. We want a lot of the instincts players have about the game to remain consistent, so we're pumping a lot of base stats directly back into the champions themselves. For the most part, this means Health, Armor, or Attack Damage, but we've also taken this opportunity to introduce a new stat into the game: bonus Attack Speed at level 1."

All my rune pages had 9 armour and 9 MR. Yet you know what Midlane mages got in their compensation? Some HP and HP growth stat. Nearly every other champ that wasn't a midlane mage got armour, most AD got base AD stat increase. Heimerdinger had 19 base armour at level 1. 19. He has the one of the lowest base HP in the game and they increase that by 12 hp. Anivia is the same. Caitlyn who also has low HP has 32 armour level 1 and she got that in the compensation buffs.

It was so weird.

Thing is hp/level yellows actually gave you more effective hp than armour yellows against physical damage at level 6.

NìghtKnight3 votes

I know this isnt related to thw thread but how did you reach high elo playing Mordekaiser. Any tips on climbing will also be apreciated

GigglesO2 votes

Well I'm having a lot more issues (this season in comparison to last) with this high damage meta that we are in. If you ask each morde main, he has a different style of playing. Mine was/is the tanky/run at you style of morde. I basically learned that it does't matter what you build on morde, its a matter of how you want to play him. Morde scales off of Hp, AP, AD, CDR, Movement Speed, Attack Speed, Armor and MR. He is unique in the fact that he is the only champ to scale off of of literally everything (except mana, don't build that shit).

If you talk to the Morde mains group chat, there is one guy playing Black Cleaver/duskblade Morde. There are a few guys running things like Ludens, Trinity Force, or etc...

The biggest thing is to learn how you want to play him.

If you want to nuke someone down, play the ludens/lieandris/sorc shoes route. If you want to get in someones way, build things like Visage, and Thornmail. (I'll get back to this in my playstyle) If you want to feel like an ADC get a Trinityforce and Stereks Guage.

From finding how you want to play (which I have done all 3 before, and more) its only a matter of knowing how fast you can kill the enemy vs how long you can live just like in any matchup.

So back to my play style. My play style involves a lot of micro-movements that optimizes a build to get in the way of the enemy as much as possible.

The easiest way to explain this is that for someone like morde who is slow to get all 3 q's off without the enemy just standing ontop of you, you have to micro walk with the enemy between each hit. Once you figure out how to micro-walk to get all 3 q's in there is only the basics of micro positioning for W, and E. W needs, NEEDS to hit two targets to get its full healing effect. For E all you have to know is its range and how it functions. If you have multiple enemies you just need to do a combination of micro walking and positioning to get the enemy where you can get max shielding/healing from the enemy champions. R is terrible to micro manage. The coding is awful on it. Honestly just spam the fuck out of the R button when you have a ghost, and hopefully it will listen. Controlling two champions at the same time is extremely difficult.

This is the easiest way to show you what something looks like. In the client this was recorded at HALF speed. So to watch it at normal speed, you must use the youtube 2x feature.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWFX2_yryp0

So the video starts with me INTENTIONALLY getting caught ontop of kogmaw. This did two things First, It popped Guardian, second, I was in position to get in the way of the enemy team. If you look, I had my W going on the kogmaw. I also popped it for a 400hp heal to deny the darius ulti reset. If you see dragon attacking, he has a short attention span, that was me literally spamming the fuck out of the R button. He still takes commands while you are cc'd. All of that focus on me, after the kog died, allowed for my team to do things, which again is what I decided I wanted my playstyle to be. My literal goal each game is to piss off the enemy team as much as possible. From there after my flash out, if you notice I pull dragon back to myself (using w to give it a little more MS) at the same time I cast a W to heal. Now here is the important part. Jungle monsters let you heal for the full amount. So I used Jungle monsters to get a full heal from W. I immediately start micro walking to get my Q's off. As soon as the 3rd Q is done I start walking out, only to micro walk back to where I get my E shield and another heal from the jungle creeps, all while trying to spam R on the kassadin. Again, that video was recorded at 1/2 speed. If you want to see it in full speed move youtube up the the 2x option XD.

So Long Story short, if you want advice from the better than me Mordes, they are going to say things like "Build more damage" and they are right, damage this season is key. I just don't like that style of play. I learn what I need to beat each champ individually, and then I build to counter my biggest threat, or help my ally. If you look through my match history I have some games where I'm support and I get a zekes herald and knights vow with banner of the command. Want to counter someone like Yi, go zhonyas and trinity force with sterkes gauge, as soon as he alphas 9/10 yis also use their e for bonus true damage, and they also used their ulti to get to you. So by time zhonyas finishes he basically no longer gets his buffs, now you are just free to auto him to death. You can round out that build with a phantom dancer for 12% damage reduction too.

The reason Spirit visage and Tmail are my two favorite items build wise is because I feel that they give the most value for their cost. Mordes shield Makes up for HP, so you don't necessarily need ALOT of hp to become decently tanky. If you properly micro-move to get a max W and E off, you can live for a very long time.

My playstyle often involves getting the enemy to over commit by making them think I'm squishier than I actually am. The biggest trick of all is to use W's bonus movement speed, and an ally or minion wave to trick them into melee range. Damage morde's tend to get around this either through ludens 10% MS or the MS bonus from Trinity force.

Tldr: Abuse the shield as much as possible to try and reduce enemy damage as much as possible. If they get close to you use micro-movements to reduce enemy damage/maximize shielding and healing. Learn what to build against what champions. Each item has its place in mordes kit. Its been awhile, but one of my tactics for awhile was to even build phantom dancer first item for the 12% damage reduction.

p.s. last season I would have considered myself high elo, diamond in two different queues, and plat in the other, however this season I wouldn't. I just haven't quite found my place in this high damage meta. I'm also glad you asked this question, because my playstyle is directly related to this thread. I got to a higher MMR last season through Micro-movements, and game knowledge. This season since there is a large number of champions that don't need to use mircro-moevements to be useful it makes it much more difficult (for me) to play anything that doesn't just instantly nuke down the enemy. I do strongly believe that if Riot wants to keep the game in this state its because higher damage lowers the skill requirement to play this game properly, which in turn makes it feel better for people that just want to instanuke the enemy. Its very similar to spawn camping in first person shooter games. It very much removes the need for skill.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

{quoted}

Well I'm having a lot more issues (this season in comparison to last) with this high damage meta that we are in. If you ask each morde main, he has a different style of playing. Mine was/is the tanky/run at you style of morde. I basically learned that it does't matter what you build on morde, its a matter of how you want to play him. Morde scales off of Hp, AP, AD, CDR, Movement Speed, Attack Speed, Armor and MR. He is unique in the fact that he is the only champ to scale off of of literally everything (except mana, don't build that shit).

If you talk to the Morde mains group chat, there is one guy playing Black Cleaver/duskblade Morde. There are a few guys running things like Ludens, Trinity Force, or etc...

The biggest thing is to learn how you want to play him.

If you want to nuke someone down, play the ludens/lieandris/sorc shoes route. If you want to get in someones way, build things like Visage, and Thornmail. (I'll get back to this in my playstyle) If you want to feel like an ADC get a Trinityforce and Stereks Guage.

From finding how you want to play (which I have done all 3 before, and more) its only a matter of knowing how fast you can kill the enemy vs how long you can live just like in any matchup.

So back to my play style. My play style involves a lot of micro-movements that optimizes a build to get in the way of the enemy as much as possible.

great tips, i will use them

Kaeblen3 votes

As a suggestion, the runes are the easiest place to hit. The game was fairly less complained about even with higher than previous damage last season. Now it is just out of control.

Well, I agree with everything except for this. Not saying runes don't have problems, but I like the current state of the game FAR more than the state last season. Hitting runes alone would serve to undo the improvements they have provided (strategic diversity, the existence of burst, etc), but would reduce total damage only to the state of last season--which is not nearly enough of a reduction.

GigglesO1 votes

{quoted}

but would reduce total damage only to the state of last season--which is not nearly enough of a reduction.

I agree, I would like to see it get reduced back below S7 values, but atleast S7 felt like I could do something more than die in 1 second.

Iffy Jarl2 votes

When did damage become so high across the board? I see it alot on the boards but I don't understand how such a change could occur without anyone noticing.

DuskDaUmbreon1 votes

Runes. No defensive runes for everyone, means lower armor and MR. Means higher damage.

No squishy is going to opt into resolve runes as it is. It scales too hard with %resistances, and screws them out of more necessary keystones.

Iffy Jarl1 votes

{quoted}

Runes. No defensive runes for everyone, means lower armor and MR. Means higher damage.

No squishy is going to opt into resolve runes as it is. It scales too hard with %resistances, and screws them out of more necessary keystones.

but with the old runes damage dealing champs would take things to deal more damage anyway and even if they didn't weren't eh old runes like single percentage differences?

GigglesO1 votes

Well there was old runes + Masteries, both systems combined had more defenses in them.

And I've actually been complaining about damage creep since season 3... so its been happening slowly over 5 years... it just finally got bad enough that the game is drastically different.

Saibbo2 votes

Adc's damage is high enough that they don't have to kite or use micro-movements to be effective.

That's not completely true, maybe with twitch, kog'maw and vayne but other adcs would get oneshooted if they didn't kite

GigglesO1 votes

All of the "good" adc's which include tristanna and did include MF (before nerfs) and etc required a position once mow down the enemy attitude.

All of the rest are garbage because even melee damage is too high for low range immobile adc's to kite.

So while yes, lower damage would buff some adc's by allowing them to kite without getting blown up, the worst offenders that just stand still and mow down the enemy would see a nerf.

Dameshi2 votes

Don't worry guys. Their data shows damage is in a good spot and people want this. /s

TEA Nietzsche 1 votes

Burst is too high, sustained damage for non-crit users too low. We need FoB back.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Lower damage, lower tankiness, lower shields.

When everything gets to the extreme, it swallows the middle.

ISLAMICWARRIOR991 votes

? damage makes micro way more important bc you cant fuck up and walk away.

GigglesO1 votes

No, because damage is so high adc's don't have to micro to be useful. You set up once and don't move while you nuke the enemy from full.

ISLAMICWARRIOR991 votes

{quoted}

No, because damage is so high adc's don't have to micro to be useful. You set up once and don't move while you nuke the enemy from full.

that's not even remotely true tho

GigglesO1 votes

Have you read the boards, its the single greatest complaint about twitch, tristanna, kogmaw, MF and general other adc's.

ISLAMICWARRIOR991 votes

{quoted}

Have you read the boards, its the single greatest complaint about twitch, tristanna, kogmaw, MF and general other adc's.

Just because silver players can kill them or because enchanter sups are op doesn't mean theyre broken lol. No adc can legit stand still and mow down a team unless super fed or being protected.

Yara01 votes

Yah i can see the to much damage problem but i dont think adcs are inherently OP i think its the items that when adcs get a lead it gives them a big advantage and that advantage is so big were always looking for that lead in bot causing allot of snow ball extremely early especially in low elo once you get ahead there is a point where adcs start to uncontrollably snowball and are very hard to deal with so i can see why riot is taking there team this is a really hard situation to remedy for them.

I encourage frustrated people to look at this situation from riots point of view and understand that they do want to make the game more fun its just a very delicate situation atm and if they rush this it could create massive problems that greatly over shadow this one.

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