Can we have back the old Athene?

Swarovsko·Dec 10, 2016·14 votes·1,497 views

It was an amazing item for supports who have mana problems ( ). Everytime I play Sona and Nami I have to back after every single teamfight because I'm oom, that's really annoying, especially for Sona. Why the changes? I just can't understand. Also, can anyone here tell me what to build on Sona? I hate being oom so I thought that building morello could be nice but that's too expensive for a support who has to buy and or first.

(sorry if I triggered you with my bad english, I'm not a native speaker).

47 Comments

SeenanDec 10, 20162 votes

They nerfed/changed it cause it was almost a mandatory buy on mana-intensive mid mages.

hhaavviikkDec 10, 201617 votes

but all that did was make morello a mandatory buy on mana intensive mid mages

NineTailedMysticDec 10, 20162 votes

The difference is that Athene's gave a ton of Mana Regen, MR, and AP. Meaning if your laner bought Athene's you perobably had to as well to keep up with their pushing power. Let's keep Athene's far far away from Mid.

LordGeovanniDec 10, 20162 votes

How did that change with item 3165 which is first buy no matter what mage you are and the only ap champions that dont get it are mordekaiser and energy based ninjas

NineTailedMysticDec 11, 20161 votes

The fact that it doesn't give MR and it's not a Mana battery unless you get kills and assists, which was the intent of the MYMU Mana item changes. Some champs start RoA as well.

LordGeovanniDec 11, 20161 votes

while giving you more tools to get those kills more easily. Sure i suppose your low heath enemy would want to heal some of the damage they took to defend themselves but whats that self healing 40% less effective one one of the top damage items with utility on it. It only gives you mana back if you get kills or assists like that is hard to do with how much it has packed on it when you compare it to the first item of any other class it now looks 3 times better than just considering it alone. You kill the enemy or force them out of lane to back to base. whats that a win win situation considering mages mostly farm with high wave clear and dont even need kills to get strong

SwarovskoDec 10, 20163 votes

Still better than a non-sense item which gives hp regen to champions who don't need hp regen, since most of the supports who used to build it (and sometimes still build it, but mostly because they don't know what to build after item 3504 item 3222 item 3190 item 3107 ) already had heals in their kit.

Sraeg2013Dec 10, 20162 votes

Morello was mandatory for months before Athene's was changed, even on mana-intensive maged.

Frankly only a handful of champions went for Athene over Morello.

JDB8eoX8x0Dec 10, 20162 votes

They changed it because around the time they decided to do so it was an absolutely unfavored item that not even Lux built in most games. The mix up of mediocre MR, Mana on Assists/Kills and mediocre AP never convinced most mages in the meta to buy it when they could instead build pure damage.

Why waste your gold on mana regeneration to spam more skills if instead you could have full damage items that seal the deal in 3 spells or less?

Not even most Supports used that item before it's rework. So yeah, people ditched it and Riot wanted to bring it back into the meta. Honestly though, if you see yourself having Mana problems on Sona, either do what I do and get yourself 5-10 Mana per 5 seconds in runes, build Ardent Censer and if that's not enough, get yourself Athene's. I never have Mana problems on Mana reliant champions like Soraka, Janna, Nami or Sona.

Sire HippingtonDec 10, 20162 votes

Î think you need to be more specific with what you mean with "old athene's". Judgeing by the comments, most people seem to think you reffer to the one befor the mage-update that didn't have the healing proc. Not 100% sure, but i asume that you actually refer to athen's after the mage rework, so already the support version, but with huge mana sustain rather than (in compareision)usless healthregen. And i totally agree with you. Back when it gave alot of manaregen, i used it alot on supports and even some supportive midlaners, now i never see it in any game, cause without the high manaregen, there doesn't seem to be a point in getting it, besides maybe as last item for the healing proc.

SwarovskoDec 10, 20161 votes

Yeah I referred to that... I actually had to check the "old" Athene because I started playing this season so I don't know how was the item back in s5/before the mage update, and yeah, that's what I meant, Support only build it as a last item just because they don't know what to build over it, which is really bad if you consider that b4 these stupid and unnecesary changes (noone wants hp regen based on mana regen, expect Soraka who doesn't build it anyway) everyone used to build it for the mana sustain.

DeathBurstDec 10, 20161 votes

Hum, the new Athene is still great on Sona AND is one of the best item to solve mana problems? Ardent Censer + Athene + support item is largely enough to get your full mana back in under a minute, you don't need to back.

Typical Sona build is: Gold item tiers 2 -> Sightstone -> Idol and/or Chalice -> full support item based on the 2 previous components (Redemption, Censer, Athene/Mikael) Merge your sightstone and gold item when you have the spare gold or need the slot, you don't need to go for QSS or upgrade to an Eyestone immediately. After your core stuff, you can also consider Luden's for high AP and some burst, the Aegis line for defense, an early Tear if you're snowballing. Don't go Lichbane, it sounds good but it's a noob trap. Luden is barely less burst, but it's more AP so it benefits your heals and speed buffs too. In rare situations, you can also consider Zeke and Knight's Vow, but it's quite uncommon.

chipndip1Dec 10, 20161 votes

Redemption gives as much mana regen as Athene's now. Why build shitty Athene's when you can build an aoe heal that heals like 500 - 650 per ally in range? For the 200 healing per W cast in a fight, you can burst heal like 2500 - 3000 per Redemption cast. There is no reason to build Athene's anymore.

DeathBurstDec 10, 20161 votes

Hmm, I didn't play a lot recently, I couldn't experiment well with Redemption, and I did forget about the "Harmony" passive being changed 2 patches ago, my bad.

I still like the "Blood stacks" passive, and I think I'll still build Athene on Sona, only later into the game.

chipndip1Dec 10, 20161 votes

Don't. Just build Redemption. Trust me.

DeathBurstDec 11, 20161 votes

I usually have enough gold to build more than 1 item, you know...

chipndip1Dec 11, 20161 votes

Just don't build it anyway.

ZephyrDrakeDec 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Hum, the new Athene is still great on Sona AND is one of the best item to solve mana problems? Ardent Censer + Athene + support item is largely enough to get your full mana back in under a minute, you don't need to back.

Typical Sona build is: Gold item tiers 2 -> Sightstone -> Idol and/or Chalice -> full support item based on the 2 previous components (Redemption, Censer, Athene/Mikael) Merge your sightstone and gold item when you have the spare gold or need the slot, you don't need to go for QSS or upgrade to an Eyestone immediately. After your core stuff, you can also consider Luden's for high AP and some burst, the Aegis line for defense, an early Tear if you're snowballing. Don't go Lichbane, it sounds good but it's a noob trap. Luden is barely less burst, but it's more AP so it benefits your heals and speed buffs too. In rare situations, you can also consider Zeke and Knight's Vow, but it's quite uncommon.

Athene's does not solve mana issues at all... hell item 2301 gives you more mana regen than Athene's now. Athene's passive was change so that it gives you HP regen based on your mana regen which makes it pretty pointless on every champion that is not named Soraka since most supports don't care about the health regen.

The item itself is pretty decent but i much rather have that passive changed to what it was before, aka boost either regen when one less than the other. Since that one at least is actually helpful to everyone who builds it. Hell scrap that annoying passive altogether and give it some AP back or put it into the healing passive something that i can actually feel good about having not some random HP regen increase that i could care less about

DeathBurstDec 10, 20161 votes

Hmm, I didn't play a lot recently, I couldn't experiment well with Redemption, and I did forget about the "Harmony" passive being changed 2 patches ago, my bad.

I still like the "Blood stacks" passive, and I think I'll still build Athene on Sona, only later into the game.

RequiemsfireDec 10, 20161 votes

Old Athene would be kinda crap in today's itemization.

theArtifactsDec 10, 20161 votes

Sona item 3092 item 2045 item 3003 item 3174 item 3100 item 3020

If you're having mana problems I feel bad for you son, I got 99 problems by my mana aint one.

SwarovskoDec 10, 20161 votes

I'm kinda hesitant about item 3003 , isn't item 3030 better at this point?

theArtifactsDec 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I'm kinda hesitant about , isn't better at this point?

Debatable. 1000 Mana means you're not going to run out easily.. plus it refunds 25% of whats used. You get +120AP (I believe) at full charges and you can use it as a shield. I personally like going with the tear.

Sraeg2013Dec 10, 20161 votes

It's +110 AP from item 3040 alone.

SwarovskoDec 10, 20161 votes

I'll try that, I'm just scared I won't do damage early because I would build item 3070 instead of item 3057 / item 3113 / item 1026

MXXXXXLDec 10, 20161 votes

Having back the old Athene when the new Morello exists shouldn't happen with them having the exact same passive.

ScissorsNstuffDec 10, 20161 votes

no you may not

TalisidDec 10, 20161 votes

Honestly the only champion who actually gives a shit about Athene's health regen is Soraka but she can't really take advantage of the Blood Well passive so the item kinda fits on nobody right now.

SwarovskoDec 10, 20161 votes

That's what I'm saying, the changes were REALLY unnecessary

Sona x RubickDec 10, 20161 votes

item 3504 item 3174 item 3222 item 3107 item 2301 item 3190 -------->support sona

midlane sona is an other build

SwarovskoDec 10, 20162 votes

I usually go item 2301 item 3100 item 3504 item 3107 item 3089 as Sona support, is that wrong? I tend to build ap because once I ulted the enemy team's carry (who is usually squishy) I can q + auto/passive and I can get them low, so it's easier to kill the enemy carry.

Sona x RubickDec 10, 20163 votes

it can work depends your elo, i'm taking high elo as a reference

lichbane and rabadon costs so fucking much gold by the time you have it the enemies will outlvl you and the damage won't be relevant

on the other hand, the other support items are extremely cheap and can increase your heal suddenly to 400 +AOE shield to 400 while it's on 3 sec cd in late game. that's the strength of support sona.

SwarovskoDec 10, 20161 votes

I was Silver 2 last season, that's probably why it worked lol (anything works in silver). Anyway thanks for the advice, I'll try that build.

Sona x RubickDec 10, 20161 votes

if you win less with my build i advise you to continue to play with yours tbh, damage may work better than healing and shielding in silver

Weasel KenseiDec 10, 20161 votes

No we cant.

EDIT: Downvote me all you like because you dont like that first sentence, but Riot reworked the mage roster, several items, added a lot of mana regen to items and champs. We ARE NOT getting the "buy it and forget about mana" infinite regen item back, or any like it. I dont care if you downvote me, Im just telling you what reality is, like it or not, NO WE CANT GET IT BACK!

It was so good it was on nearly every mage and pretty much meant never running out of mana. Riot has decided that mages should have to manage their mana for better or worse.

Here is a post I made from another thread that talked about this issue.

I dont find the item 3028 that bad, though the problem is that there are other ways to get decent mana regen on supports than Chalice that dont take the 800 gold investment... so it tends to not get bought unless youre going for item 3174 .

Chalice gives 25 MR, and 50% mana regen and health regen % equle to your % mana regen. Its actualy a decent sustain item in its own right because of this.

Certain supports do well with item 3174 Lux Karma Lulu Janna and even Bard situationally.

Lux, Karma, Lulu all have shielding that can turn their poke into heals, Bard shrines can have their healing enhanced by it for his poke. Raka heals so hard that the extra healing is nearly overkill. Sona is probably better off building AP for damage in many cases, though she can function with it too based on play style.

So I find the item 3028 a decent stepping stone item to item 3174 . It does give mana regen, though not the "free never run oom" regen of the original. I personaly dont think its trash, and was tailored to serve the needs of a few supports.

I run Mana and HP regen runes for most of my supports, focusing on sustain. With Meditation Recovery/Runic Armor masteries, this further increases my HP/mana sustain. Chalice is a natural extension of this. When I need even more sustain than I have built for, I pick up a Chalice instead of a item 3165 . The old Chalice isnt coming back, but the one we have isnt "trash."

Original thread: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/zgkAqnuc-could-we-get-mana-regen-on-chalice-back-please

Sraeg2013Dec 10, 20161 votes

The hypocrisy of that situation was the fact that the day before the change, when you wanted a CDR/mana item on a mage, you went for Morellonomicon, because of how trashed Athene was.

I've been one of those 2 people who were still buying it on Syndra, because how invaluable the %mana on kill passive was durning teamfights.

SwarovskoDec 10, 20161 votes

I never said It's "trash". That's a really good item tbh but the problem is that the item doesn't fit any support. That's why in most cases you usually build it as the last item, like "I don't know what to build now, let's pretend this item is good, having this is still better than nothing". Also, item 3174 on Janna and Lulu is pretty useless since you don't do damage so you don't stack.

Weasel KenseiDec 10, 20161 votes

I know you didnt call it trash, however; you may wish to go back up and see where I specifically said its a post from another thread.

I simply disagree that lulu doesnt do damage, glitter lance is a fairly decent poke tool. Janna has the lowest potential for solid poke to get charges I agree, but she can still build charges with disengage, and trun those charges into healing when she shields the ADC.

After using it a bit more on Bard, Iv nearly moved it over to a core item against enemy AP supports, he is so pokey and it really adds a lot of healing to his low cooldown shrines.

SwarovskoDec 10, 20161 votes

I don't know, i tried Lulu support and the damage didn't really impress me. I'm just a silver scrub btw, i'm probably wrong.

Weasel KenseiDec 10, 20161 votes

The damage isnt huge, but its a fairly inexpensive poke from her Q. It isnt blocked by minions, and is very reliable. The speed of the skillshot means a properly lined up one basicly cant miss, and if you Pix reposition it, then avoiding it is nearly impossible.

Pix reposition means that you place Pix on a minion with your E, then fire glitter lance (Q), and one will come form you, and the other from Pix, much like Zed and his shadow both fire a skillshot. Using Pix both increases your range by putting it on a caster minion, and can radically change the angle you can fire it from.

Lulu also has a decent aa poke game with her passive and the added damage from Pix per aa.

Lastly if you have mana to burn, you can go up to your opponent and hit them with a W, E, aa, Q combo, then walk away. This lets you unload the damaging parts of your kit while theyre polymorphed, and then move away while theyre regaining control. Cost a lot of mana, but they cant offer much reprisal.

For Athenes playstyle you can go up to an enemy, and aa, W, aa, Q (as polymorph is wearing off), then E your ADC to hand over the pix passive + shield (+any healing from blood charges gained from that combo), then move in and Ult yourself to knock up them opponet to chain ALLLL the CC, Q again, Exhaust, aa, aa, aa, and thats how Lulu is the purple menace.

Lulu is strongest against melee assassins, and best supports aa based carries who need peel via her W, and R, because they lack of disengage of their own. Flipside is she also supports melee assassins/fighters on her team with her R, and Q.

If you try her out some more, and are ever in the support position, and you see a couple of Khazix Yasuo Illaoi Diana Elise Nidalee LeeSin Quinn Ekko Zac Twitch in a comp. Consider getting her. She can shut down most of them with W.

Her damage took a nerf at one point... a big one, but it was because she was so good at everything that they had to take something from her. Shes still viable, and her damage isnt that bad, but it isnt huge (but can be consistent).

Ill say this though, I get most of my use on the Athenes on Karma and Bard. Full charges on Athenes heals for more than the base (uncharged) W at level 5. Its really good for amping the spot heals for mid fight sustain. Karma gets easy charges from RQ hits.

SwarovskoDec 10, 20161 votes

I know about her nerfs: she was played top/mid back in s5 and was basically a stronger Teemo with lots of utility so they had to nerf her. I didn't think she was actually this strong support after the nerfs but thanks for telling me, I'll try her out.

RozzetaDec 10, 20161 votes

Not even asking for the % of missing mana increase in regen. At least the prior mana regen increase when HP was higher than MP was useful on mages with healing. The current increase to HP regen is a complete waste of stats on the heroes that are supposed to buy it.

FantasySniperDec 10, 20161 votes

item 3092 item 2045 item 3504 item 3222 item 3107 Boots vary, but item 3111 item 3020 item 3117 are the most successful (And in that order for this build). You can even buy item 3158 first, then replace it once you hit the CDR cap.

0/18/12 for masteries; Runic Armor, Bandit, Intelligence, and Windspeaker's Blessing. Armour Quints, MR/AP Glyphs, Armour Seals, Mag.Pen. Marks

I am a firm believer that building Sona to deal damage is pointless. You could pick Zyra or Brand if you want to output meaningful damage, and they've been much better at that for multiple seasons. Her shield aura and AoE stun are the most important features of her kit, so you want to build on those strengths. That means CDR and other bonuses. This build specifically employs maximum survivability. You have insane mana regen, and by way of the Harmony passive, you get 300% bonus Hp5 end-game, also giving you little to no reason to spend mana healing yourself, yet again improving your mana resources. Healing/Sheilding bonuses total up to 40%, and on top of the resistance grant from WSB, your team becomes very hard to kill with well-placed [W]s. And before you say "Why not just play Soraka if you want to be a health dispenser?", Sona can achieve 100% uptime on WSB's resistance grant, and gives insane levels of shielding, while Soraka takes 5 seconds to heal every member of her team and can easily be countered by Grevious Wounds.

You don't really have to listen to me, but still, good luck out there. http://i.imgur.com/Z9kcfgI.png?noredirect

Dominick DestineDec 11, 20161 votes

I don't know why they HARD nerfed Athene's Unholy Grail either.

LadyRenlyDec 11, 20161 votes

Athenes was a shittier Morellos that was a decent alternative to Abyssal Scepter that helped out starving mages such as Galio, but was a decent defensive for someone like Lux.

Sure, not many people built it, but it was nice at least having the option of "athene or morello" but nowadays its just morello.

Final Spark LuxDec 11, 20161 votes

Honestly I like the new athenes. I feel you on the mana part though, it really sucks to go oom so fast all the time. If they reverted it so harmony had mana regen again I'd be fine with it. I'd say put the morello passive back on there to restore % of max mana, but I think that would make it so mids start buying it again, and riot doesn't want that

SwarovskoDec 11, 20161 votes

I don't think so... Some mids like Lulu would buy it because they don't care about the 40 ap part but all they want is cd and mana sustain to improve their utility but some others like Lux or Ahri would go morello because all they care of is killing the enemy adc/apc with a whole combo.