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These Janna changes are really ignorant

Swarovsko··53 votes·2,355 views
  1. What makes Janna strong is also ADCs being too strong. She's known as the champion whose power relies in his adc being good and the current ADC itemization makes almost every ADC player good. Have you tried nerfing that before approaching Janna this way? No.
  2. Have you nerfed coin? This item is extremely boring and made almost EVERY support uninteractive. I see Sona Nami Lulu not even trying to poke anymore, or simply not trying to poke as much as they used to. Sona in challenger gets played like this: buy coin -> upgrade it to t2 -> get a lot of gold -> buy item 3070 -> buy item 3504 as soon as you can -> spam W -> win the game and I still cannot believe that even Sona got ruined by this item. Also I don't understand how coin doesn't have stacks like item 3303item 3302 have and how it rewards champions for doing exactly nothing while item 3303 item 3302 both require something to do in order to get the gold. Whoever designed coin needs to stop doing whatever he/she is doing right now.
  3. Have you TRULY nerfed item 3504? No you didn't.

Before you overbuffed coin, ADC + support itemization Janna was a champion with recognizable weaknesses and strenghts and to see part of her theme and identity being changed with such a badly designed passive just makes me sad. And you know what makes me even sadder? The fact that when coin, ADCs etc will be addressed she's gonna be left in an even more miserable state than she's already gonna be in the next patch. In case you wanted coin, ardent and ADCs to be this strong then yes she needed nerfs because she's for sure overtuned with all this shit favouring her, but this is not the way you approach a champion.

42 Comments

Rainfall22 votes

riot is sending the e-girls back to the e-kitchen.

Velzard of Koz7 votes

Which is funny because when the support items reworks were released all vocality complained that the coin makes uninteractive supports become interactive and endanger theirselves :^)

Ariel the Cruel3 votes

It does. Then they added the mana component. Now those same supports can afford to use their defensive abilities more often; mitigating the risk.

dunder kill7 votes

What makes Janna strong is also ADCs being too strong

What if its vice versa though? Honestly I think its a combination of them being mutually beneficial to each other. We tend to view this as the damage dealer being the one who is too strong because they're the one actually killing us

Have you nerfed coin?

Yes they have

Have you TRULY nerfed item 3504? No you didn't.

Next patch. And they already said the Janna changes will not go through on the same patch because they want to see how it affects her first.

Swarovsko3 votes

Yes they have

The nerfs were obviously not enough, mana wasn't the only problem and there's a reason why the item is still being abused.

Next patch. And they already said the Janna changes will not go through on the same patch because they want to see how it affects her first.

This is my bad, I thought item 3504 nerfs and all these Janna changes were going to be released on the same patch.

Boulderox1 votes

Next patch. And they already said the Janna changes will not go through on the same patch because they want to see how it affects her first.

funny how NOW they are nerfing a champ, then the item... after all the patches in the past where they nerfed the item and the champ...

dunder kill1 votes

I literally JUST said they're nerfing the item THEN the champ. I dont understand

Swarovsko1 votes

Wait I just checked surr@20 and I didn't see any ardent nerfs, could you please tell me where you read that?

The Yetii Rider1 votes

http://www.surrenderat20.net/2017/09/914-pbe-update-eternal-sword-yi-chroma.html?m=1

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

funny how NOW they are nerfing a champ, then the item... after all the patches in the past where they nerfed the item and the champ...

Well Janna never relied on Ardent to be incredibly powerful, and the item itself is also a problem. In the past, the champion was usually reliant on the item and wasn't strong before it was buffed.

Lucifer3 votes

{quoted}

What if its vice versa though? Honestly I think its a combination of them being mutually beneficial to each other. We tend to view this as the damage dealer being the one who is too strong because they're the one actually killing us

Yes they have

Next patch. And they already said the Janna changes will not go through on the same patch because they want to see how it affects her first.

It's not - Janna is permanently banned at high elo, and ADCs are still busted as fuck.

dunder kill5 votes

There are other supports who fill the same role. Janna just does it the best. I also dont understand how stating Janna has a very high ban rate is not a sign that she's too strong

Lucifer2 votes

{quoted}

There are other supports who fill the same role. Janna just does it the best. I also dont understand how stating Janna has a very high ban rate is not a sign that she's too strong

I'm not arguing she's too strong. I'm arguing that it's not Janna that's the problem, and that it's ADCs (namely Twitch, Kogma and Tristana). Additionally Sona/Lulu's ban rate has begun to climb not that Janna is banned. Anyone that can help the hypercarry adcs hyper carry are getting picked / banned out. It's pretty obvious that's the issue, not the supports themselves.

dunder kill6 votes

But all the best support that are viable right now all focus on protecting the ADC Janna Soraka Taric Sona Lulu . If ADCs are the only thing insanely broken, why do they require so much protection? Like I said. These supports being perhaps too strong makes the ADCs strong. The ADC being strong in return makes these supports more valuable.

Its a symbiotic relation. Its a combination of them both being too strong

Lucifer1 votes

{quoted}

But all the best support that are viable right now all focus on protecting the ADC Janna Soraka Taric Sona Lulu . If ADCs are the only thing insanely broken, why do they require so much protection? Like I said. These supports being perhaps too strong makes the ADCs strong. The ADC being strong in return makes these supports more valuable.

Its a symbiotic relation. Its a combination of them both being too strong

All the best supports right now focus on hyper scaling their ADC with the huge healing and shielding boosts associated with ardent, redemption and windspeakers. There's a reason even Taric is building an ardent censor, which honestly should not be remotely attractive on him. It's likely a combination of Ardent and ADCs (particularly hyper carries) being overtuned.

Steelflame6 votes

Not sure why you think Ardent wouldn't or shouldn't be attractive to him.

He has two innate ways to proc it, one of which is AoE and potentially spammable, and very easy to apply over at least 2 people, he has among the highest base mana regen values of all supports (at 8 something, while most supports sit at 5-6), and can utilize the AP for his heals and damage, the MS to help land his stun, and the CDR to cast it and his ult more frequently.

Taric is part Enchanter, possessing 3 different ways to either protect or heal his carry innately, as well as a stun.

Weiss Guertena1 votes

If they are only thing insanely broken, why do they require so much protection?

Here's the thing: they actually don't. It's just that due to overabundance of defensive options they can get - free lifesteal from masteries, strong defensive items without sacrificing AD, support tank items being head and shoulders above selfish ones - protection provided by those supports becomes exponentially stronger. Nerfing them is trying to fix the symptoms instead of curing the actual disease.

Censer being top pick is a prime example of this: just a few patches ago, Mikaels' was considered mandatory because its cleanse and burst heal were invaluable for getting ADC out of sticky situations. No one sane would get Censer over that. Yes, "squishy, team-reliant ADC' got survivability options so good that cleanse + burst heal became obsolete in favor of a more offensive item.

dunder kill2 votes

They really do though. ADCs die really easy in a 1v1. My favorite is when Twitch tries to "assassinate" me and I just pop ghostblade and destroy him

Done251 votes

The fact that the burst heal was outright removed from Mikaels' might have something to do with that as well. RIP Mikaels.

Lil Homie busta2 votes

The ADC's are strong indeed due to the IE + zeal items buffs, but they are not the core issue of the current bot lane meta. If the enemy team pick tristana + a blitz that builds vanguard stuff instead of redemption/knights's vow/locket (assuming that no one else in the enemy team build those too), you'll see how much fair the game becomes when comparing with a [shield/heal the ADC] comp (1/10000000 chance of this happening).

That's because someone stupid enough in riot's dev team had the idea to create: a Huge AoE healing with a stupid range that deals TRUE DAMAGE to enemy champs and on top of that can be used while you're dead; a item who transfers 12% damage taken to the support; a ridiculously big TEAM shield with even more ridiculously scaling; bonus healing and shielding as stat; a item that gives attack speed and "life vamp"; AND ALL OF THOSE ITEMS CAN BE STACKED.

TL;DR: support items need to be nerfed to the ground.

Imagine how much balanced the game would be if you could only build one of those [protec da ADC] items.

Glory ln Death1 votes

{quoted}

But all the best support that are viable right now all focus on protecting the ADC Janna Soraka Taric Sona Lulu .

Sion Ahem.

dunder kill1 votes

Nope. Not even then.

The top supports in order of winrate are Janna Sona SorakaTaric and each of them have playrates substantially higher than Sion Support

Glory ln Death1 votes

That's where you're wrong, buddy.

http://na.op.gg/champion/statistics

In order of winrate: Janna, Soraka, Sion, Sona, Leona

LankPants2 votes

What if its vice versa though? Honestly I think its a combination of them being mutually beneficial to each other. We tend to view this as the damage dealer being the one who is too strong because they're the one actually killing us

ADC's are still busted when combined with a non-Ardent support like Thresh. The class is massively out of line right now.

buPPDrmXEO5 votes

Janna has had 53%+ win rate since fucking ages which is INSANE for a support. Even way back in Season 5 she was top 3 in win rates and she was only buffed since then.

Janna deserves to be gutted to Garen's power level because she requires less amount of skill and her power is just as easy to access.

In fact, I would argue Garen is about 5 times harder champion than Janna simply because he's a melee top laner that has CLEAR weaknesses while Janna has absolutely none.

Saianna4 votes

Riot will never nerf/balance ADCs with other classes as equals.

Zero Skill Tank4 votes

You are spewing nonsense, Janna had top or close to top winrate and playrate second only to Thresh for years, and even when ADC were garbage.

When marksmen are weak, Janna players say that she is strong only because she helps them survive the pressure, when they are strong you say that she is only strong because she enables them. It's actually kind of silly by now.

Dengeden4 votes

Before you overbuffed coin, ADC + support itemization Janna was a champion with recognizable weaknesses and strenghts and to see part of her theme and identity being changed with such a badly designed passive just makes me sad.

This statement is, of course, not reflected in her winrate and pickrate before the coin/censer buffs but hey! Janna can't be strong, she's a support! A champion that is based on helping out her team in a teamgame can't possibly be overtuned!

Swarovsko3 votes

She had 51% win rate before all this shit on support itemization happened.

lil koda1 votes

yes but combine the W/R with her P/R and you have a problem

Weiss Guertena3 votes

Called it. Riot would rather nerf supports, support items, tanks and tank support items before admitting that their baby ADCs are an actual problem.

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

You're choosing to ignore the fact that Janna has always had interactivity issues and that she's always managed to keep a decent winrate in all metas and be a solid pick for LCS in every season regardless of meta. This is not just because of her being strong right now, her being strong right now is just giving Riot a reason to actually try some real changes to her kit which clearly has problems with it even if those problems are not abusive or toxic.

chipndip12 votes

{quoted}

  1. Have you nerfed coin? This item is extremely boring and made almost EVERY support uninteractive. I see Sona Nami Lulu not even trying to poke anymore, or simply not trying to poke as much as they used to. Sona in challenger gets played like this: buy coin -> upgrade it to t2 -> get a lot of gold -> buy item 3070 -> buy item 3504 as soon as you can -> spam W -> win the game and I still cannot believe that even Sona got ruined by this item. Also I don't understand how coin doesn't have stacks like item 3303item 3302 have and how it rewards champions for doing exactly nothing while item 3303 item 3302 both require something to do in order to get the gold. Whoever designed coin needs to stop doing whatever he/she is doing right now.

I've been trying to hammer this point home for ages. No one is going to listen to you.

Swarovsko1 votes

I don't understand how the boards is not filled with "nerf coin" either. Some people talk about it but we should be more vocal, this item needs to be nerfed and changed.

chipndip11 votes

I've been spamming the boards on nearly a daily basis about this item, and it's not even close to enough.

Swarovsko1 votes

Let them enjoy their freelo

ThatHaleState2 votes

Janna has always been an E bot with a the tiniest amount of possible skill expression by canceling a dash with Q or R. They don't want her to be that anymore. You say ADC's are the problem. They are strong yes, but it is a combination of factors. Tanks and support itemization make them strong.
ADCs will always look ridiculous if given the ability to auto freely with no interruptions... its their job, to a shit ton of sustained dmg if allowed to do so. How do you not allow them to do so? Bring down the power of their protectors and disruptors. With tanks getting nerfed, you allow burst carries and assassins a way back into the game. ADC can't look broken if they died in 3 seconds... So we will see how it turns out. She's needed a change for a while.

AbiwonKenabi1 votes

I think part of the problem is the current iteration of PBE Janna doesn't really fix the problems either. The increased CD on early shield and increased auto range to encourage more harass is a start, but the changes also make Q snap cast more appealing and her passive that "scales off of bonus MS" is kind of a joke. It's not enough damage early to risk herself and it's negligible later on, which is typical for most supports. Add to that the fact that this is very similar to Lulu's passive, you have something that isn't accomplishing the goals it has set out to do.

Those goals presumably being A: give Janna more skill expression B: encourage her to interact with her opponents more and C: give her opponents windows to fight back. C is sorta being accomplished, but not really A or B.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

Janna had a 50+ win rate long before Coin was buffed. The main issue with Janna isn't that she's too powerful in the hands of those who are experienced with her, it's that she's too powerful in the hands of someone who's never played her before. Sitting in the back of lane and pressing E is not something that's difficult to do. It might be confusing to know when to cast Zephyr, but Janna is rewarded for NEVER casting Zephyr with her absurd MS boost. Tailwind is purely passive and requires no skill to use.

Basically the only thing that separates new Jannas from experienced Jannas (other than the ability to cast E in response to damage instead of at the beginning of a trade, which is a skill you just develop on any support at some point) is the player's use of Howling Gale. And, as you can see, Howling Gale has received a usability buff to help it go off even if you fully charge it. So that's good.

Janna is becoming harder to succeed with. This has happened to nearly every champion in the game over the years. There is nothing special about Janna that makes her kit more important to preserve than anyone else.

Swarovsko1 votes

I completely agree and don't get me wrong, I've always wanted to be differentied from a Janna who can't stop dashes using q at the right time or a Janna who throws Ws and Es without even thinking about it, but I feel like these changes are not the right ones... but maybe I'm just overreacting. I hope she's not just going to be Lulu 2.0

Onkel Malte1 votes

Janna needs some more interactivity. They are going for the right direction with those changes but not hitting it yet. Some are over the top (nerfs to health and shield) and some are just..."meh" like the damage based on bonus MS.

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