Karthus is fun to play but has by far the most counters and it's ridiculous...

ToolooT··68 votes·6,935 views

From dashes, to blinks, to mobility in general. From all the items you can by to nullify his ult. From all the different spells that renders his ult almost useless (thinking about you fizz, morgana, soraka, ekko, kindred etc).

I am not a Karthus main at all but I always enjoyed playing him once in awhile. His kit feels simple but really satisfying. What do you think they could do to make him more viable?

Just to make things clear I know that his ult should also be used for assists and to make players waste actives like zhonya and not only to get kills.

Maybe having his wall of pain available when you're dead even if its on cooldown I dont know...

113 Comments

notice me Sin pi41 votes

it's ridiculous how karthus R takes longer time to channel than item 3814 active

sir d wreck13 votes

And Karthus isn't allowed to move while channeling.

Anhartamin12 votes

[deleted]

LegendmakerGX6 votes

{quoted}

Like katarina and other champs with channel spells???

I'm sure katarina and other champion are not immobilize while ulting. Kat can jump out of her ult in a instant like other champions too.

500000000000000015 votes

I'm pretty sure sir d wreck is comparing his ultimate to Edge of Night spell shield.

Jet Sett9 votes

He means it doesn't feel fair that after Zed blows all his escapes he can channel item 3814 while running away.

Eedat5 votes

Lol why is that ridiculous? Its a Global AoE nuke that automatically targets the entire enemy team that he also can use while he's dead

Hella Kaiser10 votes

a Global AoE nuke that only makes people use their items. item 3155 item 3157 item 3814 item 3102

Eedat3 votes

Lmao so you're saying there should be absolutely no counterplay to a nuke that auto targets you from across the map and that you can't dodge? Gotta love the boards lol

MuffledGarbage2 votes

So you're saying there should be an Item to counter every champions ultimate no matter what?

because that's the point Ray29X is trying to make.

imagine the entire enemy team buying the item to counter friggen Malphite ult just so that they can't possibly lose the teamfight

imagine the team that buys the item to counter Taric ult...

the character who has the most power in his ult...Taric ...

would become the worst character in the game...

yeah seems like you have a problem understanding how riot does things...

Eedat2 votes

I've seen some shit but you're actually comparing Malphite's ult to a GLOBAL. Does Malphite press R in top lane and ult me and my entire team across the map? NO. Does it automatically target me? NO. Can I flash or dash away from it? YUP.

These are the people on the boards lmao

MuffledGarbage2 votes

I'm usingMalphite malphite as ONE example.

He's not the only example I used either, and you're ignoring the fact that I used Taric because of how broken the idea of items countering a champ's ult would be.

imagine items that countered Gangplank ult. He'd be bumped down a lot of notches because his ult can be crucial in.

Imagine items that countered Bard ult... or even MissFortune ult.

MF would have that 1/4 of her kit ripped out of her kit.

There would be no point to having an ultimate if items could counter them. " Make the enemy spend more gold"

"FK it just make it so there's no ults and everyone gets a lot less gold from everything" because that'll be the same thing"

Your argument doesn't uphold when it's just:

"THESE TWO THINGS ARE NOTHING ALIKE I SWEAR EVEN THOUGH THEY CAN BOTH WIN TEAMFIGHTS THEY AREN'T ALIKE AT ALL"

Valeckserai41 votes

Karthus main here. I don't think he needs any straight buffs, just some qol changes to make him feel better to play.

Auto attacks: Only mentioning this because they're what everyone complains about first with him. Leave them alone. No touchey. If you can't cs with his q and autos and still run out of mana like a brain dead monkey you don't deserve to get it back super easily by csing with good auto attacks. It IS possible to cs well with his autos, you just need to play with him for a while and practice it a lot. No need to do anything here.

Passive: Give a visual indicator on screen when you're running out of time to ult. Anyone who plays Karthus has been in that situation where you shot an extra q off without realizing that that was the last second to ult, which often looses a team fight. Some animation or color change to Karth while he's in his passive to signal that you don't have much time would be nice.

W: Make the vision that it grants come from the entire wall, not just the ends. Scouting bushes is actually super hard if you aren't facing it dead on and aren't very familiar with how long the wall is at each and every rank, since it grows in size when you level it up.

E: Give it the singed treatment. Make the damage tic every .25 seconds rather than every second. This would make it so much smoother to use and feel much better when wave clearing, team fighting, and everything else.

R: Apply a 1% slow to the ability when it begins the channel. This will give you an assist if the target dies before your ult goes off. Don't add any damage to the start, that will only make DFT apply twice to everyone, which would be potentially applying almost 1000 damage to everyone on the enemy team collectively in late game, that would be stupid insane considering how much damage he already dishes out. Instead, give it the meaningless slow so that the fragile ego Vayne flash tumbling into the 16 hp Jhin with no way to avoid the death to Requiem doesn't make your ult a complete waste.

Does he need these? Probably not in my opinion. He has a positive win rate and performs fine when you know what you are doing with him. It would just be nice to see some of them go through and make him feel better to play. Karthus does have a shit ton of bad matchups, but I still that you can play him in almost any game and still have a good chance of doing well with him with how flexible his playstyle is. All you really need is a competent tank that can peel for you even when you throw yourself into the enemy's faces and you are in a good spot (Shen mains, I love you so much.)

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

I till don't understand the complaint about his autos. I honestly find he has one of the smoothest and most intuitive auto attacks in the game, sure they're weak as hell, but so are all mages, at least I can gauge when they'll hit with almost complete accuracy.

God Raijin7 votes

It's not the projectile or anything, its the long ass wind-up time (the delay before he actually fires an auto) The BIG problem with a long wind up time means that auto attacks have a much larger window to accidentally cancel them.

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

And I'm saying that even if it has a long windup time it feels super smooth and intuitive.

God Raijin6 votes

To each their own I guess, personally I'd take Azir 's auto over Karthus any day of the week

Wheatloaf1 votes

Nobody ever remembers Vel'Koz had the zap-auto first ;-;

God Raijin2 votes

Probably because Azir gets so much Atk speed in addition to the zap auto that he comes to mind first.

TeCoolMage3 votes

some comments:

auto - ..as an Anivia main I agree (also former soraka mid (no Q CS also ;)) player)

W - ..as an Anivia main I agree, that's useful to have (using W for vision is a very important mechanic. I'm so glad it's full wall vision for her)

E - ..as an Anivia main I agree, that's useful to have (thought right now it's 0.5 for anivia R, would prefer 0.25 too)

R - ..as an Anivia main I agree, that's useful to have (the wall does 1 true damage and doesn't apply spell effects for an assist. Also no need for the 1% slow to be honest, Yi alpha strike gives an assist if he visually strikes an enemy now, even though the damage is only applied at the end)

damn

invisiblecat120 votes

I think if he was allowed to Q while moving like syndra can, he will actually be decent

strut3 votes

That's a really good idea.

invisiblecat15 votes

Thanks, thought of it earlier to play when I was playing Karthus, and the next chance I got, I played Syndra If syndra couldn't move during her Q animation she would be trash too Well, not as bad since she can just R to one shot

Akali is SO HOT8 votes

Karthus has a 51% winrate. He doesn't need buffs.

Synnx79 votes

[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MJm4IkEW,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-03-15T20:55:55.483+0000)

Karthus has a 51% winrate. He doesn't need buffs.

[zombie-brand-facepalm] No shit, at maybe 1% pick rate what win rate are u expecting him to have? Win rate doesnt mean jack shit

If anything his ult should bypass every god damn invulnerability , either items or "mechanics". And, no, i'm not a Khartus main. I dont even play this crap game anymore till the dmg creep meta is over ( if ever will) Most of the champs are literally useless and gimp urself if u play them .Best balance team ever

Valeckserai16 votes

Karthus main here. That is a horrible idea. What you're asking for is to remove counter play from his ult entirely.

xevi6 votes

and if rito does that then they'll gut the damage from karthus ult due to the lack of counterplay

Akali is SO HOT5 votes

So what if he's not a very popular champion? That's no reason to buff him. Kayle isn't very popular so does that mean we should buff her?

Over Innsmouth4 votes

God, please don't buff Kayle.

Glory ln Death2 votes

Most Karthus players want QoL changes, not straight buffs. Things to make it feel less punishing to play as Karthus and make it a bit easier and more enjoyable for others to start playing him.

Ahristocats6 votes

i think karthus is the 2009 champ that will never get reworked ever until league dies

he will remain like this which is sad because i always saw him as the shadow fiend of league, stack souls and release them to do damage

IxtaliKing5 votes

Although Karthus seems to be in a decent spot power wise, I think it would be cool if his wall cancelled dashes that passed through it. I think immobile mages in general need more options for dealing with mobility, especially in Mid.

hallfro4 votes

This is a really good idea! Mobility creep is definitely a problem in League, and I think the best way to solve this problem is not by reducing the existing mobility (because pretty much all instances of mobility are expressions of skill or have outplay potential that gives this game the skill curve it needs to stay competitive), but by providing hard counters to mobility, such as Cassiopeia W. Solid idea.

Lil Lewd Witch4 votes

I actually destroyed an Ahri with Karthus the other day, granted this was only in High Silver where you can play anything. But I went 13/4/15 and it was mostly from using my level 6 ult as a way to assist my Jungler gank other lanes. Makes it almost a 3v1 and if they have to stop and do something to counter my ult, that gives my team more time to reach them. Plus he's really good at assisting in early dragons with his Solo target Q damage.

Just have to play him super safe, I rushed Tear and used Q to farm with Teleport so I could base and come back quickly with full mana

KingKong23507 votes

I like to use the ult before any telegraphed team fights for objectives. The enemy team starting the fight at 60% usually is enough to make them just give up the objective

NineTailedMystic4 votes

Must have been a garbage Ahri. Karthus is Ahri's easiest lane by far.

nice table4 votes

people actually think karthus is bad?

Requiemsfire4 votes

I was under the impression Karthus was in a good spot.

Glory ln Death3 votes

Not really, he's in the Shadow Isles. That's, like, the definition of a bad spot.

Romtheguy1 votes

cheeky response is cheeky http://niceme.me

Dolasaur3 votes

What do you think they could do to make him more viable?

Hmm? As you mentioned, there's tons of ways to counter him, so he's pretty equally weak in lane regardless of meta, at least from what I've seen watching him over the years. And possibly because of his consistently low play rate, his overall win rate throughout the years has also been fairly steady and reasonably high.

By viable, do you mean higher plebian playrate? Picked in pro play? Able to win lane against a certain percentage of champions?

Quepha2 votes

Karthus has a typical amount of counters who find a typical amount of increased effectiveness against him.

You cite mobility for dodging his Q, but almost every champion has a mix of dodge-able skillshots and reliable damage and Karthus is no different with his E and R.

You cite abilities that can be used to avoid or block his ultimate, but Karthus shouldn't be ulting out of the blue when the enemy has all their cooldowns ready under any circumstances. You wait until a fight is breaking out and the enemy has either just used their cooldowns or can't afford to use them based on what your team is doing.

Disulfiram3 votes

The problem with mobility is not dodging Q (for that simply walking is often enough...); the problem is that mobility dodges his passive: the amount of champs that can dash in, instakill him, then dash out without taking any damage is very high. This completely nullifies his passive, which is core to his identity.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

the amount of champs that can dash in, instakill him, then dash out without taking any damage is very high.

Not really. Having enough dashes to get in AND out without spending a lot of damage potential or dashes that reset are still pretty rare in the game and some of them were in the game even in Karthus's heyday.

Disulfiram7 votes

Nothing personal, but I hate it when people are so literal-minded that they miss the point.

The problem is not just the double dashes, that was an example, the problem is mobility in general. It's Yi just passing through ignoring Karthus. It's Lucian killing him then dashing out. It's Leblanc with her double dash. It's Tristana with her resettable dash. It's Ekko dashing in then ulting back away. etc

It's, putting it simply, mobility in general.

Twitch Paul12 votes

Karthus main streamer here (season 5 master, season6/7 diamond w/e) I've played over 10k karthus games lifetime ranked- he is by far my favorite champ. When I read about potential buffs I get very excited. To be honest Riot has hurt Karthus a lot in the past 6 months (they didn't do it specifically against karthus but it had a side effect) For example: Rylais nerf, exhaust nerf, mastery dmg nerf, Itemization changes all of these things affect/hurt karthus. Stuff like mobility and edge of night /soraka is just the icing on the cake. Karthus needs QoL adjustments... he has severe mana/build path problems early. I would really love to talk to meddler about this and get some improvements for Karth!

Doctor Jarvis1 votes

It isn't even that he has too many counters. He has no match-ups that he WINS. A good match-up for Karthus is one where he's simply allowed to farm, no nonsense, and no kill pressure from...either of them.

Skins Project2 votes

SO karthus top vs susan?

Tychusfindlay9192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Skins Project,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MJm4IkEW,comment-id=00100000,timestamp=2017-03-16T06:54:56.957+0000)

SO karthus top vs susan?

Ehhh and then nasus gets sheen and proceeds to run down karthus post six all day.

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