Dear junglers, for the love of Talos

z63XnLCMwX·Mar 11, 2018·12 votes·733 views

And I'm speaking as a jungle main, do not in any circumstance hard push your laner's wave when they are on the way back from a recall and you haven't done anything to help them all game. Your action will force your laner to either lose two waves worth of cs when they're behind or risk a gank when trying to cs. If you want to farm the creeps, last hit them.

I'm sure everyone here has been in a situation where they have been counter picked, zoned by the enemy, had no jungle help and the only chance you have to farm is cockblocked by your own jungler pushing the wave to the enemy turret for you to be zoned the next few waves. You know how frustrating that feels, so don't do the same to your laner when you jungle.

28 Comments

JESUSSAYSNOMar 11, 20189 votes

Consider that pushing a wave into the enemy tower sets your laner up for a freeze in 2-3 waves if you aren't fucking retarded and break it. There's no correct catch all answer OP, there's so many situations where pushing waves in specific ways can be beneficial for a laner.

If you can deny the enemy laner a whole wave by hard shoving the lane, you should do so. By leaving the 6v6 minion fight on the enemy side, if your laner has a brain, the wave will start slow pushing towards them by default. You also give them lane initiative, allowing them to roam or collapse on invades until the wave is back under your side's tower. With the enemy wave hard pushing after another 2-3 waves, your laner can roam without missing more than 3-6 CS out of 3 waves.

There's pros and cons to pushing a neutral wave, and to call it bad in every situation is objectively wrong.

z63XnLCMwXMar 11, 20181 votes

Edited

Automated RivenMar 11, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Consider that pushing a wave into the enemy tower sets your laner up for a freeze in 2-3 waves if you aren't fucking retarded and break it. There's no correct catch all answer OP, there's so many situations where pushing waves in specific ways can be beneficial for a laner.

If you can deny the enemy laner a whole wave by hard shoving the lane, you should do so. By leaving the 6v6 minion fight on the enemy side, if your laner has a brain, the wave will start slow pushing towards them by default. You also give them lane initiative, allowing them to roam or collapse on invades until the wave is back under your side's tower. With the enemy wave hard pushing after another 2-3 waves, your laner can roam without missing more than 3-6 CS out of 3 waves.

There's pros and cons to pushing a neutral wave, and to call it bad in every situation is objectively wrong.

My problem is that my junglers don't shove a slow push into my opponents side. They shove a slow push into my side. That I set up before I backed when I killed the enemy laner. They they show up and ruin my freeze.

MorganFreemanBotMar 11, 20188 votes

Bzzzt, wrong.

If the lane is slow pushing in your enemy's favor (as someone already said) will result in it swinging back to the center of the lane / in your laner's favor faster.

This will result in a shorter period of time where your laner is denied / gank vulnerable, actually making it safer for them.

This will also allow your team to benefit (through you) from gold and xp from creeps which would have died for no gain. It was also allow you to get some free damage on the enemy tower, and most likely deny the enemy some CS as well.

As a jungler, there are really only two times when you don't want to hard shove a lane. The first is when both laners are present and you cannot take the tower. The second is when it's slow pushing in your team's favor, and your laner will be there in time to grab the CS before the tower kills the wave.

Wave management is a really under appreciated skill, and sadly it's also very misunderstood.

EDIT:

I want to clarify. I'm not saying that junglers do not fuck this up. The "only two" scenarios I listed in my above post are actually pretty damn common. There are absolutely junglers who fuck over pre-setup lanes or make the wrong choice, and in turn cost their laners gold / xp / their lives / time / ect.

I'm not saying that "junglers can do no wrong" by any means. Merely that this is a gross oversimplification, which honestly stems from what I said previously about so many people not appreciating the skill and understanding which goes into wave management.

z63XnLCMwXMar 11, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Bzzzt, wrong.

If the lane is slow pushing in your enemy's favor (as someone already said) will result in it swinging back to the center of the lane / in your laner's favor faster.

This will result in a shorter period of time where your laner is denied / gank vulnerable, actually making it safer for them.

This will also allow your team to benefit (through you) from gold and xp from creeps which would have died for no gain. It was also allow you to get some free damage on the enemy tower, and most likely deny the enemy some CS as well.

As a jungler, there are really only two times when you don't want to hard shove a lane. The first is when both laners are present and you cannot take the tower. The second is when it's slow pushing in your team's favor, and your laner will be there in time to grab the CS before the tower kills the wave.

Wave management is a really under appreciated skill, and sadly it's also very misunderstood.

That's assuming the enemy laner does not zone when the wave is swinging back. Someone like illaoi can zone jax all the way until it reaches his turret which then it goes back in her favour.

MorganFreemanBotMar 11, 20181 votes

{quoted}

That's assuming the enemy laner does not zone when the wave is swinging back. Someone like illaoi can zone jax all the way until it reaches his turret which then it goes back in her favour.

In which case your still wrong. In the scenario you described there are two options:

1: The jungler ignores the lane. Jax returns to lane and is promptly 'zoned' by Illaoi while his lane slow pushes. This costs him a massive amount of time, and gold, during which he can apparently do nothing. The jungler loses free gold and xp, Jax loses a massive amount of time.

2: The jungler shoves the lane. Jax is again zoned and can, apparently, do nothing. However he is not zoned for as long, which means he does not lose as much time or gold. This is because, no matter what, the wave is going to reset. Speeding up the process works in Jax favor this time.

P.S. Illaoi's kill potential is pretty limited unless you're all-inning her. A jax who's just returning to lane, and is not massively behind, can pick up some cs at relatively little risk to himself, provided he's not a moron. And even if he does take a hit or two, it will shove the lane in his favor faster and lead to an even more ideal outcome.

So again: Bzzzz, wrong.

EDIT:

I want to clarify. I'm not saying that junglers do not fuck this up. The "only two" scenarios I listed in my previous post are actually pretty damn common. There are absolutely junglers who fuck over pre-setup lanes or make the wrong choice, and in turn cost their laners gold / xp / their lives / time / ect.

z63XnLCMwXMar 11, 20181 votes

{quoted}

In which case your still wrong. In the scenario you described there are two options:

1: The jungler ignores the lane. Jax returns to lane and is promptly 'zoned' by Illaoi while his lane slow pushes. This costs him a massive amount of time, and gold, during which he can apparently do nothing. The jungler loses free gold and xp, Jax loses a massive amount of time.

2: The jungler shoves the lane. Jax is again zoned and can, apparently, do nothing. However he is not zoned for as long, which means he does not lose as much time or gold. This is because, no matter what, the wave is going to reset. Speeding up the process works in Jax favor this time.

P.S. Illaoi's kill potential is pretty limited unless you're all-inning her. A jax who's just returning to lane, and is not massively behind, can pick up some cs at relatively little risk to himself, provided he's not a moron. And even if he does take a hit or two, it will shove the lane in his favor faster and lead to an even more ideal outcome.

So again: Bzzzz, wrong.

EDIT:

I want to clarify. I'm not saying that junglers do not fuck this up. The "only two" scenarios I listed in my previous post are actually pretty damn common. There are absolutely junglers who fuck over pre-setup lanes or make the wrong choice, and in turn cost their laners gold / xp / their lives / time / ect.

I'm not saying that "junglers can do no wrong" by any means. Merely that this is a gross oversimplification, which honestly stems from what I said previously about so many people not appreciating the skill and understanding which goes into wave management.

What I said may be over exaggerated, but you should get my point. "Jungler please don't screw up my wave" is the tl'dr version. Of course there's a proper way to reset the wave, but more often than not, the jungler will not reset it properly. At least in my elo they don't, which is why I recommend if you're not sure of something, don't touch it.

chipndip1Mar 11, 20185 votes

Junglers have this weird fetish of showing up to lanes AFTER that person dies. That in general is shitty jungling.

JESUSSAYSNOMar 11, 20183 votes

No, it's called cleaning up. If you can secure the kill solo and fix the minion wave, you should do so 100%. The real problem is laners dying in 1v1s. That should really never happen.

KlydeFrogMar 11, 20181 votes

True story, I just found it funny I was top lane taric against nasus even with me dying 1v2 the fcker still couldn't kill me 1v1 it took him 20 min of free farm and like 8 kills before he could finally kill me by himself

chipndip1Mar 11, 20181 votes

OR: You do your job as a jungler and gank on time. This idea of "cleaning up" rather than actually ganking doesn't even help the lane you show up in, anyway.

I get that shit happens, but some people just go into the jg and expect everything to go absolutely peachy without them.

JESUSSAYSNOMar 12, 20181 votes

'on time' is vague and a pretty dogmatic and responsibility freeing assessment of jungle ganks. A laner should never die in a 1v1 if they're playing well, period.

I'm saying that if your laner dies like a bitch, and they do to obvious ganks and 1v1s, cleaning up a remaining kill and fixing their minion wave is the best case scenario. Not only do your directly assist your laner by denying the enemy laner exp and farm gold, you can put them off the map while your dead ass is respawning, you generate gold and exp for yourself, and can set up your laner's minions to favor your team.

If top gives a kill at 9 minutes 1v1, the enemy laner is pushing, and they're low, there is not a chance in hell I don't come top, clean up the kill, and bounce the wave against enemy tower. I get massively ahead, enemy laner falls slightly behind, and our top ends up neutral with a favorable minion wave.

'Just gank on time' means absolutely nothing other than 'hurrr jungler's fault', because it's so goddamn vague and gives no situational information. If you die in a 1v1 and blame your jungler, you're a piece of shit. If you die to an obvious gank that was pinged out ahead of time, you're a piece of shit. Being a shit player is not your jungler's fault.

BlåbæretMar 11, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Junglers have this weird fetish of showing up to lanes AFTER that person dies. That in general is shitty jungling.

Lol what? You're saying fixing the wave is bad jungling? Lmao. You dying in your lane is your own fault.

Malix FarwinMar 11, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Lol what? You're saying fixing the wave is bad jungling? Lmao. You dying in your lane is your own fault.

We set up the lane in our favor so that it is pushing towards us when we back, you aren't "fixing" anything.

chipndip1Mar 11, 20181 votes

You're just ignoring context entirely. Maybe the death was close? Maybe they were ganked? Maybe they were tower dove?

All that is beside the point: Idc about someone coming in to organize and fix up a wave. I DO care if that's the only time I see my jungler.

JESUSSAYSNOMar 12, 20182 votes

Jungler's job isnt to babysit you, jungler's job is to win the game. Jungle cleanup is necessary and a required skill for climbing, and if you're just feeding in a lane where you lose the jungle 2v2, you're never getting a gank. There's multiple reasons that you can never see the jungler that both have and do not have to do with your personal gameplay.

BlåbæretMar 14, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You're just ignoring context entirely. Maybe the death was close? Maybe they were ganked? Maybe they were tower dove?

All that is beside the point: Idc about someone coming in to organize and fix up a wave. I DO care if that's the only time I see my jungler.

Go play jungle then. I want to see this magnificent jng of yours.

Post the gameplay vid afterwards. We're all waiting.

EndlessSorcererMar 11, 20183 votes

I'll shove the wave if it is already slow-pushing to prevent the enemy from freezing it.

If it is pushing towards our side, I'll just freeze it for them or leave it be.

ZackTheWaffleManMar 11, 20183 votes

"for the love of Talos"

Upvoted.

dunder killMar 11, 20182 votes

You probably shouldn't upvote shitty advice because of a zero effort Skyrim reference. Just saying.

EedatMar 11, 20183 votes

do not in any circumstance hard push your laner's wave when they are on the way back from a recall

cockblocked by your own jungler pushing the wave to the enemy turret

What are you taking about? Hard shoving a wave is completely acceptable if you're bouncing it off the tower. You can actually save your laner from a freeze against them which is way more beneficial than the 2 CS they would have gotten by the time they got back.

You just don't understand minion wave management lol. How is this getting upvoted? This is AWFUL advice

HaIlMonitorMar 11, 20182 votes

The only time I kill whole waves is when I am peacefully last hitting then the laner starts to ping like a monkey. Then I will just push to tower.

SanKakUMar 11, 20181 votes

If you're a jungle main then I guess you don't have enough experience to give an opinion on whether the middle lane player should be offended by whatever you do to the minions.

z63XnLCMwXMar 11, 20181 votes

{quoted}

If you're a jungle main then I guess you don't have enough experience to give an opinion on whether the middle lane player should be offended by whatever you do to the minions.

I don't even understand what you are trying to say here. "Whether the middle lane player should be offended by whatever you do to the minions". What? Are you trying to say that mid laners get angry at whatever you do? I can assure you that I had mid laners not mind when I take their waves and told them in chat I'm freezing lane or resetting it.

SanKakUMar 11, 20181 votes

Some players blame others for their own mistakes, but there's nothing special about middle lane players, it happens in all team slots.

GripaAviaraMar 11, 20181 votes

What are you talking about, if you can crash the wave into their turret it's way better to push since then when the lane comes back will be easier to freeze the lane

SwiftKitten88Mar 11, 20181 votes

i am also a jungle main. the whole "under no circumstances" is bullshit.

if i see both my laner AND his opponent backed and i can shove your wave to the tower have it die, deny the enemy the cs deal, free tower damage, and have the wave reset by the time you get back.. i would be stupid not to. and i see a 4 man gank happening bot.. and there is no way i can make it there in time to assist the defense of the tower or my teammates .. i am going to try to shove the wave to deal as much turret damage as possible.

if i see a laner has the enemy tower low, and another lane is going to lose their tower in next thirty second for first tower gold.. i dont give a shit about thier "last hitting" i am going to race for first tower gold.