Do not go through with the changes to the support items.

Bârd·Jan 10, 2018·10 votes·869 views

For those of you who don't know...

have been removed.

now build out of and

Coin line sightstone now costs 1500. Edge line sightstone now costs 1800. Shield line sightstone now costs 1900.

This does not stop other roles from buying support items.

This does three things, none of which are good.

Generally nerfs the entire support class (especially tank supports).
Reduces support item variety.
Removes the "Item CDR" build people meme around with (which, while funny, isn't actually all that strong).

36 Comments

Kevin711Jan 10, 20182 votes

Err I like frostfangs...but lol hated sightstone and all the peer pressure to get it lol

BârdJan 10, 20183 votes

Do you also feel "peer pressure" to buy boots?

You buy it because it's necessary to have one on every team, every game, and the support can buy it without delaying power spikes, since they're not very item dependant.

Kevin711Jan 10, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Do you also feel "peer pressure" to buy boots?

You buy it because it's necessary to have one on every team, every game, and the support can buy it without delaying power spikes, since they're not very item dependant.

A support with no items is pretty useless lol just try it

BârdJan 10, 20181 votes

A Rakan with no items is more useful than a Jinx with no items.

Supports need no items other than boots to come online, and need very little to stay online.

GeminiRuneJan 10, 20183 votes

You cannot be any more false with that latter statement. Some supports find good use in items beyond even the Tier 3s. And those Tier 3s aren't anywhere near be all end all to a support potential. I rarely prioritize boots unless I'm on assisting champions as is. Yet I feel pretty impactful in the right light.

With that kind of statement, it makes me feel that this change isn't fun for players because it completely warps the game they grew familiar with in the role. Not being fine with innovation is fine but being irrational about it is pretty unnecessary

BârdJan 10, 20181 votes

Ornn core build is item 3068 item 3047 item 3001

He needs HP and resists to survive in a teamfight, so one armor and one MR item is necessary at a minimum.

Katarina core build is item 3146 item 3020 item 3157

She needs burst and safety. Gunblade provides burst for that first passive proc, and hourglass lets her survive enemy burst.

Evelynn core build is item 1402 item 3117 item 3152

Eve needs AP to make her burst meaningful, but more importantly she needs mobility to reliably get in range to charm. Mobis and Protobelt guarantee she gets in range, while Runic destroys them.

Twitch core build is item 3031 item 3006 item 3085

Twitch needs hurricane's bolts to unlock his AOE potential, and then IE to make that AOE hurt. Without that, he's not really that impactful (barring, of course, a surprise mid gank with red buff at level 1).

Meanwhile... what does a Lulu really need?

She's generally sitting further back, so excessive tank stats aren't necessary. She's got a lot of defense mechanisms built in, so something like hourglass probably isn't necessary either. Her damage doesn't need to be improved, so AD and AP are neither here nor there.

She already has everything she really needs just off her base kit. She can just build whatever the team needs.

There's a reason almost every supports core build is some variation of item 2049 item 3047 item 3098 .

They need boots for obvious reasons.
They need a GP10 item in order to afford items for the team.
Sightstone is the best (and most efficient) team item in the game.

Everything on top of that is either a luxury or something for the team.

Yeah, some supports synnergize greatly with some items (Morg+Hourglass), but even then it's not like they aren't online before they get that item.

GeminiRuneJan 10, 20182 votes

What you've listed are standard itemization on champions. As if there's no other flexibility that the champion can utilize. Now if you're basing the discussion off of ranked exclusively, I'll end my rebuttal here.

But if not, I for one who spent a lot of of past seasons before 6 playing those support style champions found it drab to just play the nitpicker for a carry on my team. Boots don't solve all my problems. Kits need effectiveness to slap on them. I've been spam pinged for not being able to get a kill from flimsy autos or low skill damage while my bot laner is dead from a 2v2 or a jungle/mid gank extended.

That's what this change is meant to bring out: Preventing the staleness that being a support already brings. By listing out thise champions, it just shows you're accepting to what you see in your opinion of champions. I'm just saying to think beyond supports as these damageless meatshields or guardians, but as utility or backup carries like Miss Fortune turned out to be in the flex of things.

BârdJan 10, 20181 votes

Of course there's SOME flexibility, but you still have to fill the same holes in your champion with whatever items you build.

If your champion is there to provide their utility, they have that utility just in their base kit. Items usually don't enhance this utility except through CDR, which can be gotten through team items. Champions like support MF are, well, not really supports. They're budget carries with a sightstone.

Look at the support roster.

Supports that build primarily team items Alistar Bard Blitzcrank Braum Ivern Janna Karma Leona Lulu Morgana Nami Nautilus Nunu Rakan Sona Soraka TahmKench Taric Thresh Trundle Zilean

"Supports" who just go straight damage Annie Fiddlesticks Lux Malzahar MissFortune Shaco Velkoz Xerath Zoe Zyra

Of course, there's some flexibility. Sometimes Karma or Zilean will go full damage, sometimes Zyra or Lux will focus on team items, but this generally how it goes.

You'll notice a distinct difference in between the champions in each category. Every more traditional support is largely item independant, and buys items for their team instead of for themselves. Every "support" is one of those champions people will accept being played bot, but won't refer to as a support without quotation marks, and builds straight damage.

Think about it. If supports were item dependent, they wouldn't be able to protect their carries or bully enemy carries at all with their limited income.

A support's build is a five pronged utility machine. Their kit doesn't need enhancing, so they acquire new abilities through items.

PokladnicaZlaJan 10, 20182 votes

How would this reduce support item diversity?

BârdJan 10, 20181 votes

Currently, you have the choice of going item 3401 item 3092 item 3069 and upgrading to item 2045 late game or just buying item 2303 item 2302 item 2301 .

A t3 support item takes up an additional inventory slot, but gives you a good active, while an Eye gives up the active (and the item CDR) for slot efficiency.

Now, you're stuck with an Eye every game.

PokladnicaZlaJan 10, 20183 votes

I dont know about others,but the choice for me is always the same. Having a gold item ,SS,boots and a pink ward is taking 4 of my item slots(5 if I have refillable potions),which really doesn't leave much room for building either item components or finished items.

To people who builds either Eye or the finished gold item,how do you decide which option you take? I always go for Eye,because it's cheaper and leaves more room for others items.

ModKnightsKemplarJan 11, 20182 votes

I mean, I think it was an interesting point of preference.

I really liked item 3401 item 2045 item 3190 on Taric, because it gives you two active shields and a good pool of health to use them (they both scale with health).

Basically, the changes are "forcing" you into the eye item (of whatever equivalent ends up in game), but I think that's okay because it gives a more clear baseline to balance around and allows supports to have more choices in itemization. That's a good thing overall, but I understand why some people are frustrated by that.

Craft ZeppelinJan 10, 20181 votes

I don't know about laners, but junglers can get a trackers so I doubt it will be THAT rampant.

BârdJan 10, 20181 votes

What won't be "THAT rampant"?

If you're talking about the Eye items, you're wrong. They will be rushed every single game, because sightstone is the single best team item in the game. Even if it costs almost 2k gold, you have to.

If you're talking about support items taken elsewhere, that's completely irrelevant to trackers knife and also incorrect. No change has been made to the T2 items, so buying them is still strong even if you have no intention of upgrading.

If you're talking about the item CDR build, that's irrelevant to trackers knife but correct. It's been gutted, so it doesn't exist anymore.

PopcornBunniJan 10, 20181 votes

Above all of this, relic ADC will have even more of an incentive, getting three free yellow wards to go with their blue ward while healing indefinitely throughout laning.

General Esdeath Jan 10, 20181 votes

I'm fine with point A, but Riot ONCE AGAIN, taken the long convoluted and non-working route. WHY NOT add bandit as a Rune instead of Minion Dematerializer so support items don't become common on all other laners to rush into the "late game" at 10 minutes.

ChaddyFantomeJan 11, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I'm fine with point A, but Riot ONCE AGAIN, taken the long convoluted and non-working route. WHY NOT add bandit as a Rune instead of Minion Dematerializer so support items don't become common on all other laners to rush into the "late game" at 10 minutes.

because then all supports would be forced to go into Inspiration.

General Esdeath Jan 11, 20181 votes

You can go into 2 trees you know, and most already do with Future's Market

ChaddyFantomeJan 11, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You can go into 2 trees you know, and most already do with Future's Market

Yes, but now you'd have no choice but to always choose Inspiration as one of your trees. Right now, if i play say Soraka , i can basically opt into nearly any combination of the existing trees depending on what my playstyle is or what im attempting to bring to the team.

Your change would force me to always limit one of my trees to always being Inspiration, baring me from the other 4 options in the given tree all together, greatly stifling my rune page options and build diversity.

General Esdeath Jan 11, 20181 votes

Welcome to the price of balance. If something is abused, rules are put into place, like needing smite to buy jungler items.

ChaddyFantomeJan 11, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Welcome to the price of balance. If something is abused, rules are put into place, like needing smite to buy jungler items.

Thanks for making it clear you haven't a clue as to what you are talking about. Your change does the exact opposite of balance things.

General Esdeath Jan 11, 20181 votes

I guess neither does the balance team then. Because, wait for it, they did exactly that!

ChaddyFantomeJan 11, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I guess neither does the balance team then. Because, wait for it, they did exactly that!

Except that has nothing to do with the change you are proposing.

General Esdeath Jan 11, 20181 votes

It kinda does, because it solved the core issue of top lane tanks taking smite for cinderhulk without hurting junglers.

ChaddyFantomeJan 11, 20181 votes

{quoted}

It kinda does, because it solved the core issue of top lane tanks taking smite for cinderhulk without hurting junglers.

Except it doesn't solve the issue at all. Replacing Dematerilizer with Bandit doesn't accomplish anything. Whats the goal? preventing other laners from abusing it? By putting in in a tree that every champ has equal access to? What? It's painfully obvious that you didn't think what you proposed through at all.

General Esdeath Jan 11, 20181 votes

Do you know WHAT the problem is? It's the PASSIVE gold gen on the items. Bandit also wouldn't include extra pots of gold from hitting enemies/collecting coins.

Please look up the problems before bashing a solution.

ChaddyFantomeJan 11, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Do you know WHAT the problem is? It's the PASSIVE gold gen on the items. Bandit also wouldn't include extra pots of gold from hitting enemies/collecting coins.

Please look up the problems before bashing a solution.

?????????

Now you are just changing your argument all together. How would making Bandit a Rune/Mastery make people stop taking the supp items for the passive gold if the passive gold isn't being removed?

Now you are just being insipid.

General Esdeath Jan 12, 20181 votes

Why do you think I wanted bandit added? Clearly, we're removing the passive gold gen, since I said

"common on all other laners to rush into the "late game" at 10 minutes."

In case you haven't been up to date on some issues, marksmen seem OP because they hit their late game builds way easier due to the price drops on their items.

ChaddyFantomeJan 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Why do you think I wanted bandit added? Clearly, we're removing the passive gold gen, since I said

"common on all other laners to rush into the "late game" at 10 minutes."

In case you haven't been up to date on some issues, marksmen seem OP because they hit their late game builds way easier due to the price drops on their items.

Bandit isn't the passive gold gen. Bandit is the gold on auto against enemy champion + the gold from minions dying near you.

Gold gen items have an innate passive gold gen to them as is.

your change wouldn't solve anything.

General Esdeath Jan 12, 20181 votes

I didn't say bandit was the passive, but it was moved to support items but a lot of top laners such as Nasus Illaoi Riven Rengar liked to take it, and it's why some of them take klepto and some take coin.

ŚhunpoJan 10, 20181 votes

The changes make absolutely no sense.....at least give FotM, Talisman and Frost Queen's the Sightstone active as well. Don't just force supports to build the sub-par variants for vision.

Also, the Jinx changes make no sense. What's the point of Lethal Tempo existing for her if her attack speed uncaps anyway....

Edit: Never fucking mind, they're removing FotM, Talisman and Frost Queen's entirely. Good meme Rito....

Kevin711Jan 10, 20181 votes

Now I will feel the peer pressure to ward more item 3070

Teridax68Jan 10, 20181 votes

My thoughts on this:

Every support ward item is having its total cost reduced by 400, and its base stats unchanged. The removal of individual support quests, as well as the gating of the Sightstone effect behind said quest are both nerfs on their own, so in the end it will come down to fine-tuning as to whether or not this is a power nerf to those items specifically. In the end, though, these items will become core to every support, and will be much quicker to rush than Talisman/FQC/FotM gone, particularly with Sightstone out of the way as well.
I personally believe this is more likely to increase support build variety than increase it. For sure, there are fewer support items overall, but the removal of Sightstone makes for a critical difference, as that item was absolutely mandatory to every support build, and reduced diversity by taking up an item slot each time.
With that said, I do think the removal of the other support items, as well as Ruby Sightstone's active item CDR, is a definite loss. Riot has said they'd reintroduce stuff like Talisman's and FQC's actives, though who knows when that will happen. I also would very much like to see item active CDR become a thing, and with CDR now being a generalized stat, it might even be nice to see active item CDR be a separate, stackable stat unique to supports.

Overall, I personally like this change, mainly because I hate Sightstone and think it's a major source of frustration and boredom, and so think this update is a step forward. With that said, I agree that not all of its changes are perfect by themselves, and the loss of many of those items will be felt, though I still think that this sets a better foundation for their specific effects to be reintroduced later on. Beyond that, I personally don't think it's entirely clear how this will affect supports power-wise, though if they turn out to be weaker than intended there are still plenty of tools left to buff them (such as by buffing the health of tanky support items, for example).

ChaddyFantomeJan 11, 20181 votes

{quoted}

My thoughts on this:

Every support ward item is having its total cost reduced by 400, and its base stats unchanged. The removal of individual support quests, as well as the gating of the Sightstone effect behind said quest are both nerfs on their own, so in the end it will come down to fine-tuning as to whether or not this is a power nerf to those items specifically. In the end, though, these items will become core to every support, and will be much quicker to rush than Talisman/FQC/FotM gone, particularly with Sightstone out of the way as well.

I personally believe this is more likely to increase support build variety than increase it. For sure, there are fewer support items overall, but the removal of Sightstone makes for a critical difference, as that item was absolutely mandatory to every support build, and reduced diversity by taking up an item slot each time.

With that said, I do think the removal of the other support items, as well as Ruby Sightstone's active item CDR, is a definite loss. Riot has said they'd reintroduce stuff like Talisman's and FQC's actives, though who knows when that will happen. I also would very much like to see item active CDR become a thing, and with CDR now being a generalized stat, it might even be nice to see active item CDR be a separate, stackable stat unique to supports.

Overall, I personally like this change, mainly because I hate Sightstone and think it's a major source of frustration and boredom, and so think this update is a step forward. With that said, I agree that not all of its changes are perfect by themselves, and the loss of many of those items will be felt, though I still think that this sets a better foundation for their specific effects to be reintroduced later on. Beyond that, I personally don't think it's entirely clear how this will affect supports power-wise, though if they turn out to be weaker than intended there are still plenty of tools left to buff them (such as by buffing the health of tanky support items, for example).

except this doesn't really remove sightstone. What ti does is take away your support income item and turn it into a sightstone, of which you can't even use until you did your chores. it's stupid.

Kevin711Jan 11, 20181 votes

I like the active on frostqueens claim I'll be sad if it's removed. It wasn't that long that I was a little noob that always forgot about it, but it will be missed.

BârdJan 11, 20181 votes

Who knows, maybe we'll get Twin Shadow and Shurelias back.