Cinderhulk, nerfed?

Vicarious117··3 votes·1,629 views

So 50 less hp and 50 more gold...... I don't see these little minor changes really effecting these easy farming 4k+ health at 20 mins tank junglers all that much....

Sadly those of us who like to play warrior junglers will still have to stick to cinderhulk junglers instead cause having to finish the game in 20 mins with warriors or you get outscaled into oblivion by the cinderhulk user who is by then faaaaar tankier and will also start to do more damage then you is just a but too much to ask on a regular basis.

So yeah I know the 25% increased health thing is what really brought tank junglers back into the meta, but maybe reduce THAT a little bit? By like 5% maybe? Idk, just something that still gives everyone else the chance to actually kill these guys even when they're far behind without being out damaged as well.

For example, I just played jungle Rengar and I was heavily punishing the enemy jungle Gragas, but as soon as he got his cinderhulk, a Righteous Glory, and his Iceborn he could easily take me on, who at the time was 2 levels up, had warriors, ghostblade, Randuin's, and a Hydra..... Like he jumped me over the wall and basically half hit me without his ult and I unloaded my full 5 stacked fero combo on him and it barely dented him and his 60 armor from Iceborn, so I had to ult away and just run! THAT is just ridiculous, I'd understand more if we were even in items and gold cause I wasn't building much MR, but to be a whole item behind and 2 levels down AND being able to outdamage and outtank me is just freakin stupid.

PLEASE RIOT! Do something more then 50 FREAKIN HEALTH AND GOLD as a nerf, these junglers are like an escape for bad players who don't understand early game pressure at all and just wait for late game and become unkillable adc squishing machines..... Yes that's an over exaggeration, an adc who's ahead can still melt the mostly health tank jungler, but that ofc requires these heavy cc based champions to be peeled off these adcs or they will kill them.... again, just stupid.

P.S. Since so many f*cking morons don't seem to understand this painfully obvious post, I'm not saying tank junglers are OP in general and I'm not saying they shouldn't be given the tools to succeed. I specifically said in this very post that I understand it brought them back into the meta, so please actually try reading before posting some unrelated none sense about me hating tanks, you only look like a freakin fool when you do. It's about the item and only the item, it can be nerfed and still provide what tanks need to clear and scale well without completely pushing the other junglers out of the meta for just not being tanky enough.

19 Comments

Lean into it4 votes

just pick TuStrong and press R works everytime

Vicarious1171 votes

So also play a Cunderhulk jungler? Since TuStrong definitely uses Cunderhulk! lol

exiledFromBadmen1 votes

{quoted}

just pick TuStrong and press R works everytime

Who's TuStrong?

IcyPepper2 votes

I dunno, cinderhulk is great for early clears and scales into late-game (where adc, aka tank-shredders excel). Warrior gives great early burst with that armor penetration.

But I think the real issue with the current jungle enchantments is exemplified in your post because devourer and magus were not once mentioned. They either need to be reworked, or tweaked to make them equally strong without breaking them (which could happen, I'll admit).

Look, if you really hate cinderhulk, there's a counter: item 3153.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

item 3151 I cri evry tim

IcyPepper1 votes

Oh sorry, I forgot...

Here's more tank shredding items: item 3135 item 3035

IwfiKe3qjM1 votes

hey hey...

I thought item 3142 can too...

ArmPen + Crit

IcyPepper1 votes

Man, I'm such a stinker. Might as well include item 3091 too.

So many items tho :/

IwfiKe3qjM1 votes

hey hey hey... if you go for item 3091 might as well include item 3071 too...

IcyPepper1 votes

item 3020 while we're at it

Vicarious1171 votes

Yes but the 25% bonus health from those armor stacking items is also the problem. I played a match as Sion a little bit ago and had Cinderhulk, Randuin's, and Thornmail, and the adc Sivir was literally killing herself faster then she could damage me. Was even worse when I smited the Gromp first :P

But yes I think devourer's specifically needs a buff. Magus is fine I think, it works great for AP junglers, the issue is AP junglers are less common so you do not usually see them or that enchant all too often. Devourer's though is awful, it was good before it got nerfed into the ground, I mean yes it did need a nerf back then, but now it's just a bit too much. ESPECIALLY with Cinderhulk now, cause the whole point of Devourer's is to farm and stack that magic damage on hit into late game, but by that point the Cinderhulk jungler on the other team will also have scaled up and has enough MR to almost completely nullify all those stacks you spent so much time getting, not too mention he'll still out damage you!

And I have been trying to just build that instead of like Hydra or something, but as a squishier damage dealer it just takes too long to sit there AA'ing this beefy damage dealer who rarely moves around without his team close-ish by. I've had a lot more success just sticking to the likes of Hydra and focusing the squishier champs on the Cinderhulk junglers team and hoping my team can take handle him and he doesn't just kill my adc while also tanking the rest of the team...

IcyPepper1 votes

and the adc Sivir was literally killing herself faster then she could damage me.

Wonder if she had botrk and lifesteal tho. If you can link the match, I can check. Otherwise, thormail + gromp is going to kill her.

but by that point the Cinderhulk jungler on the other team will also have scaled up and has enough MR to almost completely nullify all those stacks you spent so much time getting, not too mention he'll still out damage you!

Aren't devourer junglers supposed to engage on the adc and apc, not the tank? o.O Of course a tank jungler is going to build MR. Though, since devourer junglers build AS, item 3091 and item 3153 would make good items for counterbuilding.

It also depends on what kind of tank it is, and what part of the game it is. DPS tanks still deal a good amount of damage, but lack hard aoe cc, so the damage there is presented to force them to be a threat. They lack the mobility assassins have, so they can be punished for it. But builds also matter. If you build damage and no defenses, but go for the delete squishy build over the tank shredding build, you can lose against a tank that builds full defense. Unbreakable shield vs unstoppable bullet dilemna here. This is why adcs build a certain way that's different than bruisers, but that doesn't mean you can't counterbuild against a tank.

And seriously, blade of the ruined king. It'll deal more damage against cinderhulk champions already, and thornmail+gromp don't return on-hit effects, so they don't get punished for building botrk (but still benefit from lifesteal).

I know it's frustrating, but it has its counterplay and brought tanks back into the meta. Let's not hate on it so much yet. When people bitched about Warrior's, it got 5 AD nerfed, so it's not like little love-taps like this are specific to cinderhulk.

Vicarious1171 votes

First off as I have already clearly stated I did acknowledge how it brought tanks back into the game, I'm not hating on it 100% and want tanks gone, I made that perfectly clear.

Secondly that match was a long time ago, I'll look but I don't think I'll look THAT long lol I can tell you though that she did not have a BotRK, she did have a BT for the life steal though, which doesn't help much against a Sion level tank :P

And what I mean by a Cinderhulk outscaling a Devourer's I don't mean them going head to head obviously, the issue is these Cinderhulk's get to your team back line at the same time that you do, the difference being that it takes your whole team to keep a Cinderhulk jungler off your back line and some time to take them down, but for a Devourer jungler you may be able to deal a lot of damage to one squishy target but most the time you're also squishy so you can be cc'd and blown up before you get the chance to deal your damage, which in a teamfight will add up to be far less then a Cinderhulk junglers damage.

Sure yeah, you can just splitpush and focus on 1v1s, but most Cinderhulk's also have hard engage, so relying on your team to not get caught or to not fight is extremely risky.

So my point for this is that there is very, very, very little reason to ever play a Devourer jungler when you can just play a Cinderhulk one instead.

As for your point on general counter building, that's common sense. And when I say "damage dealer" I don't mean "HURR FULL SQUISH ASSASSIN!" Obviously the best ways to build junglers atm are more bruiser-y so they can get to the back lines without imploding, and counter building for for your own defenses as well as the enemies is a NECESSITY! It's not a "if you do it" kind of thing, YOU HAVE to no matter who or what you're playing. That being said, due to the ridiculously effective stats on the Cinderhulk enchant itself itemization becomes A LOT easier and "counter building" is more of a buffet of really effective items that can all work out just as good against multiple targets.

It is just too easy to play Cinderhulk junglers atm, and a 50 health reduction and 50 gold increase will not change that, they will remain more powerful then all 3 other kinds of junglers and will also be a lot easier to be effective with.

IcyPepper4 votes

Hm... I appreciate the civility, though. Nice to have a pleasant conversation. I understand that you're not hating on tanks, sorry for being overly defensive.

Though, I only have on issue with cinderhulk.

It's that item 3035 item 3135 item 3151 item 3153 item 3089 item 3031 exist. These are anti-tank items. There are some champions who have passive or abilities that increase defenses and even AD (looking at you, Zed), but I can't recall an item that increases armor or magic resist by a ratio. There's some favoritism toward damage being increased by a certain %. I wouldn't mind it being nerfed a slight bit, but only if that was the only way (since obviously defenses scale faster early game, but eventually damage particular attack scale into late).

One pro said this, but I'll paraphrase: mechanically, tanks have it a bit simpler. But they force strategy over the entire game to be exemplified. (end paraphrase). When it comes to bruisers, you can usually 100-0 the adc if they're caught out and hopefully get out like an assassin can, but have enough tankiness to survive the 1v1 without relying sheery on killing them. Tanks deal less damage, but they deal enough to be a nuisance, forcing you to deal with them as they head toward your backline. They try to get you to blow all your cooldowns, all your cc. If they die, but everyone is oom, the enemy can take out your adc and apc quickly and then clean up.

Tanks right now are a nuisance, but they can be beat. For instance, I played Jinx. The enemy Sejuani tried multiple times to initiate a fight, but made the mistake of wall-jumping away from her team. Being officially caught-out, my team cc'd her and then protected me as I shredded her with my anti-tank build item 3031 item 3006 item 3046 item 3035 item 3153 item 3072. Late-game, the tank is supposed to soak damage. However, the one who beats them is the adc.

I know I'm getting off-topic, but I like to give out tips. In a perfect teamfight, you want:

  1. The tank initiating from the frontline, making sure nobody gets past. Becomes a nuisance to the enemy and tries to get focused.
  2. The apc uses range/mobility to get behind the frontline and deal some damage safely. Assassins, however, can delete the adc and get out. If no kills are made, at least the enemy team is softened up and can be cleaned up soon. Mages and assassins retreat until their next rotation.
  3. The adc is constantly autoattacking, typically focusing the tank first. Whichever tank dies first leaves their team the most vulnerable to cleaning up. If the apc/assassin softened the enemy up, the adc can clean up alongside them.
  4. Support prioritizes protecting the adc, but does their role in the team comp.
  5. Top lane is a bit of a mess right now, but they do what they can. Bruisers focus any caught-out apc/assassin that gets too close to the adc, and harasses the enemy tank. If they're ballsy, they can in the middle of the enemy team and deal some damage, drawing fire from their team and hopefully making an opening.

Tanks right now emphasize teamwork over damage right now, and it's important for people to work together. Previously, people have always said "don't focus the tank," but now that's actually a decent strategy. If you're the adc, focus the tank. Pay attention to the tank build (if they build thornmail, it's time to build some lifesteal) so gromp smite doesn't delete you.

Seriously.

Nothing is worse than having no frontline because top decided to take Fiora after jungle picked a bruiser non-tank. The adc has no peel or protection, can't shred the enemy tank, and the enemy team has better teamfights due to this.

Sorry for being off-topic, but I like to spread things around to help people out. It's like Zed, honestly. Nothing wrong with wanting him to be tweaked, but at least you still have options to deal with him. So people are frustrated with tanks, so I try to help them out a bit.

Also item 3172 may actually be an item worth picking up for some attack speed adcs.

Chessburger1 votes

You have a good objective grasp on the game explained it eloquently! +1

Onimus Terlain1 votes

{quoted}

For example, I just played jungle Rengar and I was heavily punishing the enemy jungle Gragas, but as soon as he got his cinderhulk, a Righteous Glory, and his Iceborn he could easily take me on, who at the time was 2 levels up, had warriors, ghostblade, Randuin's, and a Hydra..... Like he jumped me over the wall and basically half hit me without his ult and I unloaded my full 5 stacked fero combo on him and it barely dented him and his 60 armor from Iceborn, so I had to ult away and just run! THAT is just ridiculous, I'd understand more if we were even in items and gold cause I wasn't building much MR, but to be a whole item behind and 2 levels down AND being able to outdamage and outtank me is just freakin stupid.

This doesn't tell me much about Cinderhulk. He had Cinderhulk and Righteous Glory. So he had 650 from RG, 350 from Cinderhulk and 250 from the bonus.

For comparison's sake, Juggernaut gave 500 health. So Cinderhulk, in that build, was only providing 100 more health. Granted, juggernaut is a tad bit more expensive but, for comparison's sake, it isn't far off.

That doesn't seem so oppressive getting 250 additional health from your enchantment. It seems your bigger problem was Gragas' synergy with Iceborn, which gives no health.

Yes, building health with armor is strong. And there are plenty of armor/health items in the game. But that has very little to do with Cinderhulk. Like I said, the build that broke the camel's back for you was just 250 bonus health from Cinderhulk.

I think this change has made tanking popular again and people, not realizing that tanky champions were always intrinsically strong, are attributing their strength solely to Cinderhulk.

You say it is difficult to kill a tank as if that's a bad thing. It's basically their entire freaking job.

Put down the pitchfork man. It's all perception. :)

Fnz1 votes

Or....OR...Stop complaining because cinderhulk is what allows low damage tanks to clear jungle and actually be useful because we all know its not fair when some damage jungler solos drag at level 2 as your big tanky ass fumbles around your camps at half HP

Chessburger1 votes

Well there's a few problems with this specific example.

A) Gragas hardcounters rengar, it doesn't matter what he builds, he doesn't even have to be tanky. B) Your job is not to keep gragas busy but to delete a carry. C) from what you're describing he had vision of you and you got caught alone. You had a randuin, warriors, ghostblade and hydra. His ult didn't half hp you he didn't have the ap or penetration to make it happen. What did most of the damage to you was the % max health damage on his W coupled with a spellblade effect on iceborn because you had no MR items. D) As far as my definition of assassin goes - you shouldn't be able to win a prolonged head to head fight vs a bruiser where you fail to burst in the opening few seconds OR you don't have the element of surprise. Replace the rengar example with any other assassin (that I could think of at the moment of making this point) other than zed (because his core build path and the ult amplification damage + mobility + invulnerability are really good tools to deal with anyone really) and you'll come to a similar conclusion. For example you can't just get body slammed as Shaco and then try to fight instead of Qing and getting the hell away from there.

Tl;DR: You took an event from a game where something else made you lose but honed in on a very specific seemingly unimportant event and inflated its' meaning to illustrate a biased point you wanted to get across.

Nucleophilic atk1 votes

I lol at you.

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