Kog isn't an attractive pick unless he's hilariously over-tuned

Rebonack·May 30, 2016·19 votes·2,690 views

Obviously Lucian's continued existence isn't helping, but that isn't the main issue here.

Now, mind, I'm not saying that Kog is bad. Far from it. But even when he was hilariously over-tuned, his pick rate wasn't particularly amazing. The problem, I suspect, goes beyond him simply being a risk for his team (totally immobile, no hard CC). Kog's problem is that heavy damage is all he does. And unless that damage is leaps and bounds beyond what any other ADC can bring to the table (eg, Kog is hilariously over-tuned) there's absolutely no reason to pick him over ADCs that deal slightly less damage, but also boast mobility, utility, or more potent burst.

In other words, when the main draw of a class of champions is 'deal lots of damage' then having a champion in that class with 'deals lots of damage' as their only perk really isn't very compelling.

What Kog needs is some aspect that helps him to really stand out from other ADCs. He needs a niche that no one else really covers. And being good with OnHits isn't a niche. It just limits the range of items Kog can grab that feel good on him.

61 Comments

PrometheSMay 30, 20165 votes

That's because they made him into a W bot instead of allowing him to use his whole kit effectively. His R was so cool before and allowed him to mid decently.

RebonackMay 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

That's because they made him into a W bot instead of allowing him to use his whole kit effectively. His R was so cool before and allowed him to mid decently.

I was pretty sad to see the R changes. But I understand why Riot did it. They wanted to make more of a difference between Kog and other poke-focused ADCs.

YumaS2AstralMay 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I was pretty sad to see the R changes. But I understand why Riot did it. They wanted to make more of a difference between Kog and other poke-focused ADCs.

But at same time they killed AP Kog'Maw.

RebonackMay 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

But at same time they killed AP Kog'Maw.

Which is why I was sad.

YordlelayhehooMay 31, 20163 votes

Protect the kog comps were the most fun comps to both watch, play, and play against. There was something hilariously fun about it.

Sire HippingtonMay 31, 20162 votes

My issue with kog is less that he's all damage, but that he's very one dimensional. It's basically press W, and watch him AA away till he dies or kills everyone, and which ever of those two happens is mostly in the hands of the rest of your team and your opponents. For me, there is very little that kog actively can do to impact the outcome of a fight other than existing. One could argue that snipeing lowhealth targets with the ult is a thing, but that usually only comes in after the fight once you won it and only have to clean up. The high as of W makes stutterstepping nearly impossible unless your very, very high skilled mechanically, and the rest of his kit currently is pretty low impact by comparison. I prefered the old one with weaving the ult into AAs for trinity procs and orbwalking just as other adc. He also had much less downtime on W, so he could easier reposition, kite and so on. Makeing his W work similar to old Xerath W would be nice imo. A toggle with some cd that gives him ther increased range+as+on-hit, but roots him in place, and switching back to normal gives a brief speedboost, so he can actvely kite and reposition.

But as it is, he's like a big gattling, what matters is where you set him up at the start of the fight, and after that he just stands there and keeps fiering and thats it.

RebonackMay 31, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LhXHAA05,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-05-31T00:29:44.723+0000)

My issue with kog is less that he's all damage, but that he's very one dimensional.

I won't say you're wrong, here. I understand where you're coming from. Part of the reason why Riot did the Marksmen pass was to try to better define the unique niche that each champions brings to the table.

Let's assume for a moment that Riot had just changed Kog's Passive into something that meshed better with his kit. Whatever that thing is would be largely immaterial. How would you resolve Kog from other champions with a similar poke-kite pattern like Corki and Ezreal?

Sire HippingtonMay 31, 20161 votes

he's the only poke champ with solid tank busting. Compared to ez or corki, kog has less burst but way more sustained dps + %-shred + %-hpdamage. Ez and corki have both troubls fighting vs strong frontlines, as they need really long to chew through them, and their AAs are shortranged while the rest can be bodyblocked. Kog has easier backline acces with his poke/execute while also beeing better at killing tanks but therefor sacrifeces burst potential vs other squishys and safety.

Also, i like the changes to his ult, though a linear scaleign of the damage rather than thresholds would be nice. Helps to set him appart from the usuall poke that tries to soften up people and goes more towards Jhin, beeing about picking up low health targets from a distance. What i don't like is his new W. It's a bit like urf, the massive AS is fun for some games, and then you realise how little gameplay it allows and how binary his performance in fights gets because of it.

RebonackMay 31, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LhXHAA05,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2016-05-31T02:29:44.885+0000)

he's the only poke champ with solid tank busting. Compared to ez or corki, kog has less burst but way more sustained dps + %-shred + %-hpdamage. Ez and corki have both troubls fighting vs strong frontlines, as they need really long to chew through them, and their AAs are shortranged while the rest can be bodyblocked.

Kog has easier backline acces with his poke/execute while also beeing better at killing tanks but therefor sacrifeces burst potential vs other squishys and safety.

Nice summery. Though, sadly, it apparently wasn't enough for Riot's taste. Corki ended up as the more blasty poke-ADC while Ez became the chip damage guy. Kog would (again, assuming no other changes) still be a chip damage guy with better sustained damage but (obviously) less mobility. Riot apparently didn't think that was enough of a difference.

Between you and me, one of the things I pitched for Kog back before the remake was more or less what they ended up doing with Cait. Make Koggy's skills mark targets, allowing him to make a single super long range auto-attack against them.

I liked Kog's artillery aspect more than his machine gun aspect, but unfortunately in nearly every straw poll I ever ran, most respondents liked Kog's machine-gun play more. I suspect Riot did similar data gathering and found much the same thing. Which is a shame, because Kog's Ult was such a fun, iconic ability.

If you COULD change Kog, what would you opt for? Just a full revert back to last Season to get his poke/kite cycle back?

Sire HippingtonMay 31, 20161 votes

what I'd like to try is a compromise between the poke/kite and machin gun.

Change his W to be a toogle. Root him in place in exchange for the current W bonus(maybe with some more range) Add some cd befor you can toogle it again, and give a small ms boost when uprooting. This would allow to chip away on targets from range with high as and then uproot to search for a new safe position and repeate the process. His overall dps probably would need a nerf as he would be a bit more save, but it would allow him to play more active. I'd also change the ult to have the damage scale linar with missing health, so hitting a 51%hp target doesn't feel as shitty. At last, i'd also like to lower Q cd and mana slightly and up the ap ratio to 0.7 and have the manacost-stackduration sacle with cdr so AP kog can become a thing again wiht hopefully a healthier playstyle than just spaming R from 2k range all day long.

If that doesn't work out, then i'd prefer a revert with maybe some adjustments to Q and R. The old full poke ult was not exactly healthy, especially on the ap built, and Q never was the most attractive skill.

agbudarMay 31, 20162 votes

his ult needs to have less mana costs its quite redicilous that i run OOM after using my ult 4 times.

AnnoxisMay 31, 20162 votes

The little detail you seems to forget is that Kog'Maw is the reference in his class. No other ADC can out DPS a full stuff Kog'Maw. His tradeoff is his lack of mobility. That is why he is only playable in organized teams, or at least should be.

RebonackMay 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The little detail you seems to forget is that Kog'Maw is the reference in his class. No other ADC can out DPS a full stuff Kog'Maw. His tradeoff is his lack of mobility. That is why he is only playable in organized teams, or at least should be.

Full build Vayne out DPSes Kog. So does Twitch. Kog's damage peaks at mid/early late because he runs out of items to buy. He doesn't get the overlapping layers of multiplicative damage that the true hyper-carries have access to because his kit only multiplies OnHit effects, nothing else.

RiotRepertoir stated during the post-preseason patch fiddling that Riot's idea that Kog should only work with 5-man premades was inherently flawed because it's unfair to every Kog player who isn't in LCS. And beyond that, there are other ADCs you can build a team around who have far more impact while also being more self-sufficient (hi MissFortune ).

Basically, Kog's partial remake shoe-horned him into a single play style that's absurdly difficult to balance, that most of the player base finds unfun, and has no place on teams unless it happens to be hilariously over-tuned. Hence why this topic exists. Kog needs another remake. Ideally focusing on the interactive parts of his kit that are actually fun to use.

ManadarMay 31, 20161 votes

All wrong. Full glass cannon kog (critical, on hit or a mix of both) will out DPS any champ. The best part is kog's steroid is on par if not better than twitch ultimate and its up every few seconds. Also kog needing a premade is pure nonsense, my win ratio is over 80% in solo que.

RebonackMay 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

All wrong. Full glass cannon kog (critical, on hit or a mix of both) will out DPS any champ. The best part is kog's steroid is on par if not better than twitch ultimate and its up every few seconds.

You know Kog's W only increases his AD-based DPS by 10%, right? Any champion with a full AD/IAS/Crit build will do lots of damage, but the massive steroids that Twitch and Vayne get both out-strip Kog's. Kog can approach their damage if he's running an OnHit build, but it takes him a little bit of time to ramp up. Vayne and Twitch can both come out swinging without any prep-time.

I can run the numbers on this if you want. I've done it before. The only time Kog has beaten the late game, full build damage of the other hyper-carries was early in the remake when his %HP damage had a total AD ratio. The ramp-up on his damage puts a pretty major dent in how much hurt he can dish out in six seconds.

Also kog needing a premade is pure nonsense, my win ratio is over 80% in solo que.

I suspect people are still stuck on where Kog was prior to his attack speed moving from Q to W. Kog hasn't needed a team built around him since then. Which was sorta what Riot set out to do with the last few rounds of tweaks. They just under-estimated how strong it would make Kog.

ManadarMay 31, 20161 votes

No math required, at 100% critical the champ with more asp will do more DPS. But that is irrelevant because it's more about range/uptime. Late game kog will kill vayne before she tumbles in for 1 auto. Forget about silver bolts even being applied.

StickyOctopiMay 30, 20161 votes

I mean kog maw was definitely the top picked adc in all elos for a patch or two. He had the playrate for sure.

His niche is on-hit aoe with the highest attack speed in the game.

Kog is fine right now, maybe a slight buff. Add lucian nerfs and he's top 5 adc.

RebonackMay 30, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I mean kog maw was definitely the top picked adc in all elos for a patch or two. He had the playrate for sure.

His niche is on-hit aoe with the highest attack speed in the game.

Kog is fine right now, maybe a slight buff. Add lucian nerfs and he's top 5 adc.

Vayne, Lucy, and Ez still had Kog beat by miles when it came to pick-rate even at the height of Kog's absurdity. Though that might have had something to do with the ban rate.

AoE OnHit is still just 'does damage to things' as a niche. Twitch does that, too. Arguably better. 's why he gets more play. What I'm saying isn't that Kog needs to get stronger (he doesn't.) Kog needs some part of his kit that isn't damage to get some more focus, possibly coupled with a nerf to Kog's W OnHit damage.

Samflash3May 31, 20161 votes

I say they need to change his Q.

Zero Skill TankMay 30, 20167 votes

His niche is on-hit aoe with the highest attack speed in the game.

But that's the thing - this is not a strategic niche at all. It's exactly the same thing that say Jinx does - deal bonkers amount of damage that is more AOE oriented than ordinary marksman, which stats exactly they use(on-hit vs crit) doesn't really matter when choosing between one or another.

His niche could be being hybrid-damage hypercarry, but that's hardly a positive thing considering how easy MR is to get compared to armor.

YumaS2AstralMay 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

But that's the thing - this is not a strategic niche at all. It's exactly the same thing that say Jinx does - deal bonkers amount of damage that is more AOE oriented than ordinary marksman, which stats exactly they use(on-hit vs crit) doesn't really matter when choosing between one or another.

His niche could be being hybrid-damage hypercarry, but that's hardly a positive thing considering how easy MR is to get compared to armor.

But if he is an hybrid damage ADC, he could either outclass or be outclassed by Corki. Unless Corki becomes early game oriented and Kog becomes late game oriented.

RebonackMay 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

But if he is an hybrid damage ADC, he could either outclass or be outclassed by Corki. Unless Corki becomes early game oriented and Kog becomes late game oriented.

That's already more or less how it goes.

Corki (when he isn't gimped to hell) is great early game and drops off as time goes on.

Kog kicks in mid game and more or less levels off late.

In spite of everything Riot said to the contrary, Kog isn't a hyper-carry. He's never really been one. His builds have always revolved around OnHits and/or Trinity, giving him a strong mid game presence. But in the deep late game Twitch and Vayne are both stronger.

YumaS2AstralMay 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

That's already more or less how it goes.

Corki (when he isn't gimped to hell) is great early game and drops off as time goes on.

Kog kicks in mid game and more or less levels off late.

In spite of everything Riot said to the contrary, Kog isn't a hyper-carry. He's never really been one. His builds have always revolved around OnHits and/or Trinity, giving him a strong mid game presence. But in the deep late game Twitch and Vayne are both stronger.

I would say that Kog'Maw is an hypercarry. However, with this mid game oriented meta, you want to use an ADC that does not fall behind easily, does not take too long to scale, and preferably has early game power. Kog'Maw does not fit into those characteristics, and is only picked when he does. Same reason to why ADCs like Tristana, Jinx, and Twitch are not picked either, leaving Vayne as the only hypercarry that is commonly picked and even then she cannot compete well with Lucian.

UltîmaMay 31, 20161 votes

Kog'maw probably deals the most amount of damage out of any ADC late game but he's very vulnerable, which is why whenever he's been seen in competitive it was always with a ''Protect Kog'' team composition. He's terribly designed and balanced for solo Q because out of all ADCs, he requires the most babysitting by his teammates, which can also lead to poor lane matchups. If Kog could thrive in different team comps he'd be most assuredly broken OP.

MunchCrunchLunchMay 31, 20161 votes

not really. he deals the most aoe damage to tanks since jinx rockets really one shot squishies.

CerealBoxOfDoomMay 30, 20161 votes

untrue,

kog isnt popular becuase he sucks on shit teams

RebonackMay 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

untrue,

kog isnt popular becuase he sucks on shit teams

Is that why he has a 1.5ish percent pick rate at the Diamond level? Because the folks up there are shitty players?

CerealBoxOfDoomMay 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Is that why he has a 1.5ish percent pick rate at the Diamond level? Because the folks up there are shitty players?

correct

https://cdn.meme.am/instances/64607188.jpg

TWITCHTV ERONATEMay 31, 20161 votes

Tbh play rate doesn't always defy a champion's viability

RebonackMay 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Tbh play rate doesn't always defy a champion's viability

Oh I agree without question.

The low play rate (even when he's really strong) combined with his absolute knife-edge balance is a problem, though. Because as said before, Kog really doesn't do anything aside from 'lots of damage'. And because that's the only thing he does, his damage has to be amped to an unhealthy level for his niche to really stand out from other AoE damage ADCs.

Or in other words, he needs another remake. Machine-gun turret Kog was a fun experiment, but he isn't hitting the mark. He's fundamentally flawed as a concept right now.

PrometheSMay 31, 20161 votes

Kog was a poke based ADC. Making a difference by killing his playstyle isn't exactly what fans of said champion want.

RebonackMay 31, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Kog was a poke based ADC. Making a difference by killing his playstyle isn't exactly what fans of said champion want.

Riot has been pretty keen on destroying champion playstyles of late.

BloodyTomponMay 31, 20161 votes

There's two reasons he isn't picked. The meta doesn't favour him and the W giving double AS means to do optimal damage he needs to become a siting duck. Because he is a sitting duck Kog is and always will be low in win% and pick% - He requires a comp to be built around him and high levels of co-ordination.

RebonackMay 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

There's two reasons he isn't picked. The meta doesn't favour him and the W giving double AS means to do optimal damage he needs to become a siting duck. Because he is a sitting duck Kog is and always will be low in win% and pick% - He requires a comp to be built around him and high levels of co-ordination.

Nah, that has little to do with it.

He was a decently popular pick when his was hilariously over-tuned. But even then, his pick rate was low when contrasted with how silly he was. So clearly Kog can be strong enough to get picked with the kit he has now, he's just going to get perma-banned as a result of it.

And that's a bad combination. Which is why this topic exists. If Kog is only a good pick in SoloQ when he's obscenely over-tuned, then there's something fundamentally wrong with his kit. I don't know whether Don's idea would be the way to go (still love the idea of dialing turret kog up to 11, it would be funny) or whether something else would be a better plan, but it's clear something needs to be done.

BloodyTomponMay 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

If Kog is only a good pick in SoloQ when he's obscenely over-tuned, then there's something fundamentally wrong with his kit. I don't know whether Don's idea would be the way to go (still love the idea of dialing turret kog up to 11, it would be funny)

That's was half my point. He isn't likely to be a good SoloQ champ because he needs a comp and co-ordination to be function well.

If you're point is that he isn't that fun, I'd somewhat agree. I'd disagree that it is a problem. His play rate is and will be small, not unlike Heimer, even when he is more powerful. Considering the number of champs and players though, I don't think that every champ need be a 'mainstream' one.

RebonackMay 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

If Kog is only a good pick in SoloQ when he's obscenely over-tuned, then there's something fundamentally wrong with his kit. I don't know whether Don's idea would be the way to go (still love the idea of dialing turret kog up to 11, it would be funny)

That's was half my point. He isn't likely to be a good SoloQ champ because he needs a comp and co-ordination to be function well.

If you're point is that he isn't that fun, I'd somewhat agree. I'd disagree that it is a problem. His play rate is and will be small, not unlike Heimer, even when he is more powerful. Considering the number of champs and players though, I don't think that every champ need be a 'mainstream' one.

Ah, we're coming at it from slightly different angles, then.

My issue is that Riot set out to give Kog a niche and managed to totally bungle it. He still doesn't have a niche. Dealing lots of AoE damage as an ADC really isn't a niche, especially when there are so Jinx many MissFortune options Twitch . Basically, I would like to see him be able to do something that's actually unique. The simplest solution would be to place WAY more emphasis on his resist shredding, which would be something befitting for an acid-spitting voidpuppy. And something that no other ADC brings to the table.

Reaper ReviewMay 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The simplest solution would be to place WAY more emphasis on his resist shredding, which would be something befitting for an acid-spitting voidpuppy. And something that no other ADC brings to the table.

Corki and Kayle both have hybrid resistance shredding, though. Corki's isn't a percentage shred, though, and Kayle's not an ADC.

Kayle's passive seems like the kind of thing you want Kog to be doing, at any rate.

MunchCrunchLunchJun 1, 20161 votes

kog has it on his q. and kayle passive is shit against squishies. the problem is that kayle has an ult that makes her invulnerable. if kog had that. yeah. he would be basically kayle with a little more range and twice the attack speed

FeathermaneMay 31, 20161 votes

There is no way you can make a boatload of champions ALL be popular. That doesn't mean you should stop trying to improve, but people should moderate their expectations of how many champions get played.

MLDzXnRRRMay 31, 20161 votes

Squishy, low MS, literally free kill until he gets 2-3 items, so he can fight back. He was nerfed, because of the protect the Kog comps with Janna, Lulu, Nunu. Also the old Kog was way harder to play, now you just press W and if you have the stats, they die...

Lady HammerlockMay 31, 20161 votes

1 issue KogMaw has is that he is just so boring to play,sure its hilarious just standing still getting triple kills left and right,but he isn't that fun to play imo

iamthegoatofwarMay 31, 20161 votes

hmm something special for koggy...perhaps a new passive would do him some good? maybe moving the magic damage from W over to that while buffing what W does besides that. He's supposed to be like a ranged...seige kinda adc really imo. Or perhaps giving him a damage bonus on targets hit by R.

RebonackMay 31, 20162 votes

{quoted}

hmm something special for koggy...perhaps a new passive would do him some good? maybe moving the magic damage from W over to that while buffing what W does besides that. He's supposed to be like a ranged...seige kinda adc really imo. Or perhaps giving him a damage bonus on targets hit by R.

I think you're right on the money with your assessment of what Koggy is supposed to be.

He's supposed to be the siege ADC. Not the poke ADC, the siege ADC. An immobile artillery platform that shells an area to soften it up. Immobile artillery platform would probably be quite a bit more fun to play than immobile machine-gun nest. It would probably be less of a knife-edge balance issue, too.

iamthegoatofwarMay 31, 20161 votes

to the people that down vote us...tell us why you're downvoting our ideas. We know what koggy is supposed to be. I understand that you guys might WANT him to be something else, but fact stands that we know what he's MEANT to be period.

Wolfram OxfordMay 31, 20161 votes

I used to like Kog' Maw. The reason being he was fun to play, and had a few things that actually defined him as a hyper carry. Right now Riot made him just completely focused on high and consistent damage that doesn't promote varying styles of play. The old Kog' Maw however didn't just offer high consistent damage, he offered mixed damage, percent HP damage in abundance, and the use of his spells for some nice added in burst. Before the rework you were not just standing in place auto attacking and relying on your team to peel, sure you did get peel, but the main thing was kiting efficiently, positioning correctly, and weaving in spells to take advantage of their burst with trinity force. Right now with his current state I can't really see a big way to make him like his old state. Perhaps a change to help out this new "stand and auto attack" play style would be to promote it and give him a movement speed buff while moving on his E and increasing his ultimate's AoE.

Utility VeigarMay 31, 20161 votes

You should try bloodrazor smite kog. It's so good. Almost getting diamond on this acc.

RebonackJun 1, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You should try bloodrazor smite kog. It's so good. Almost getting diamond on this acc.

Just goes to show how shoe-horned Kog's itemization is. I suspect that if he had a wider range of OnHit items to pick from he would be ban material again.

I can't say it often enough, I'm not trying to argue that Kog is weak. Just that 'does all the damage' probably isn't the most healthy champion niche for him to have.

MunchCrunchLunchJun 1, 20161 votes

on hit itemization in general. is shoe horned. thats why when you play melee. you build one or two on hit items and go tank because there isn't anything else to build or the rest are just garbage

Utility VeigarJun 1, 20161 votes

They need to bring back his ad ratio on W. Problem fixed.

RebonackJun 1, 20161 votes

{quoted}

They need to bring back his ad ratio on W. Problem fixed.

I would love to see Kog's W AD ratio come back so he doesn't feel as bad building AD gear. Really, it wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit if Riot totally axed the double attack speed silliness and stuck with the artillery platform route. Slow firing, super long range, heavy damage.