Why do AD Champions get to build Lifesteal and regain huge chunks of health in burst

Over Innsmouth··102 votes·6,348 views

While dedicated healers are constrained by cooldowns and/or significant costs, and at best can bolster their sustain with Spirit Visage?

Swain's healing costs an increasing amount of mana per second, and heals him in DoT increments, so you can still out-burst it. Vladimir's primary healing is CD based and becomes weaker the higher his health is, as well as the cd being telegraphed by his resource bar. Dr. Mundo's healing is gated around the CD of his ultimate, and is otherwise slow and trickling with his passive. Fiddlesticks has to stand still and hope that his target stays within the tether range. Soraka sacrifices her own health to heal an ally. Zac has to pick up blobs that he drops by casting abilities - using up health in the process.

Ignoring that a lot of these Champions lose a huge amount of effectiveness thanks to a single, easily accessible stat - a core item on nearly every mana mage if you're AP, or a measly 800g.

These are Champions that are inherently toxic and unfun to play against, apparently.

Meanwhile, any ADC with a Bloodthirster and a Runaans can heal themselves from nothing to full health in 3-4 autoattacks.

Mmhm.

188 Comments

MrHaZeYo34 votes

But ADC's get dropped before they can Auto 3-4 times as well. Every champ you mentioned outside of FIddle is pretty tanky. Even Raka builds most Supp tank items.

The Coin Sightstone, Locket, Redemption, Visage, Boots(I build Tabis/Mercs) and if it goes on long enough Warmongs.

Ark Sorcerer18 votes

Marksmen get dropped just as quickly as mages or assassins.

If a Rengar or Fizz comes out of the brush out of nowhere, they can kill a marksmen just as quickly as a mage (maybe not Lissandra) or another assassin. So that has nothing to deal with it.

MrHaZeYo10 votes

The example was ADC's with Bloodthirsters. They can gain so much HP back cause it only take Syndra 2 seconds to kill them.

Ark Sorcerer12 votes

Takes Syndra two seconds to kill Lux and Kha'Zik. And? Takes 3 seconds to kill a non tanky, unsuspecting Fiora as well (q before. q her, e her=stun, ult with 5 spheres) What is your point? Marksmen are just as squishy as assassins and as mages (Except Lissandra)

The point I am trying to make is that marksmen being easy to kill or pop is not an excuse for them to have life steal because their are two other classes that are just as squishy.

MrHaZeYo6 votes

Are they though? Mages can pick up RoA, Ryalis, Liandrys, GLP, or Protobelt for HP, Abbsyal grants the 2nd most MR in the game and Zhonya's gives minor Armor + the stasis. They can also buy GA or Banshees.

AD Assassins get to get Night of the Veil, and Maw for MR, most ADs outside of MF, Varus and Jhin can't utilize those two items as well. Assassins can also build actual tank Items. Ex Rengars have been building Dead Man's and Spirit Visage.

Wet Dryman12 votes

RoA, Rylai and Liandrys are only for Battle Mages because they are mostly in the middle of enemy team so they need more tankiness and are mostly late game hypercarries with DPS so losing AP in mid game doesn't hurt them a lot but it's complete waste of slot for Artillery Mages like Xerath, Vel'Koz or Lux or for most of the Burst Mages because they need raw power ASAP and they are far away from their team anyway. RoA needs 10 minutes to give same powerspike as Morello does, Rylai gives less AP so buying it hurts most mages (and that's why most mages don't buy it), Protobelt has weak stats and is utilized by AP Bruisers mostly or low range Burst Mages like Annie.

Marksmen can utilize Maw well (I see this item in their builds very often when they face burst mages) also they can buy Mercurial Scimitar which counters artillery mages and those DPS oriented because of life steal, QSS and MR, buying GA doesn't hurt them too (it was built as last item on them for most of this game existence + this item is a lot cheaper now than before). Some of ADC's get Black Cleaver (MF, Lucian, saw it even on Draven). Marksmen additionally have supports that give them shields, additional healing and additional cleanse (Mikaels).

When you catch artillery/burst mage in his bad position then he is more likely to be dead because they have single CC that can be cleansed and have no means of disengaging (only Viktor has kiting tool with his Q) and supports will be focused on supporting ADC. Some of Marksmen (Caitlyn, Quinn, Draven, Vayne, Jhin, Sivir, Tristana, Lucian, Ezreal) have more means of escaping/getting out of bad position + their lifesteal once they are in OK position.

Sraeg20133 votes

Bloodthirster was a thing before Syndra was even in the game.

Snowman Arc2 votes

That's why an assassin or mage can itemize defensively with a Negatron Cloak and still be relevant, while the ADC can't go Hexdrinker because they will be useless.

Veltox3 votes

You try to rush negatron on Viktor then do any damage.

Snowman Arc5 votes

Well, Viktor is my main champion, and if I find myself vs a difficult AP lane, I will rush Negatron, stay safe, farm it out and be relevant 3-4 minutes after I was supposed to be relevant. Sure, I lose out on my waveclear at first, but I'm not completely useless. If anything, I can still take advantageous trades in lane, because of my bonus MR. Q auto + E with TLDs hurts a lot.

Veltox1 votes

Fair enough

Ark Sorcerer2 votes

Not really. Negatron Cloak feeds into Abyssal Scepter, something that not all mages can use, especially its passive: increased magic damage dealt to enemies in range. Viktor shouldn't be in range for that passive to be used all that often. So, your first item is to get mr may decrease damages when trading with your mid laner, but it will make your damage output a lot weaker.

That would be bad if the enemy has an ad jungler, where if they gank, they will be taking a lot less damage then they would if you had just went Morel or something.

I understanding getting the cloak but rushing it has its flaws. Maybe as a second item that would work but as a first?

Sp33d Zer010 votes

Okay, let's take a swing at this.

Most ad champions that make actual use of the lifesteal, do so over a sustained fight. This "burst" of life steal is limited by auto attack speed (neglecting death's dance). In order to make use of this life steal, you need to build aditional AD to allow you to life steal more. ADitem 1036 is one of the most expensive items per it's cost to actually build, at a cost of 35 gold per stat, only beat out by critical strike chance item 1051 at 40 gold per stat, (which again, requires AD to make use of) and life steal item 1053 which is 37.5 gold per percent of lifesteal. In order to make a very good use of this, we will say roughly half of life steal building ADs need to buy attack speed item 1042 , which is the third most expensive stat per gold.

Honorable mentions are flat magic penitem 3020 at 37.33 gold per stat, and % movement speed item 3113 at 39.5 gold per stat. I discount these because % move speed and flat magic pen aren't super prevalent on a lot of items.

So now that we have spotted the expense of trying to make use of life steal, lets look at why it allows for "burst" that is actually sustained healing.

In order to make use of the life steal, like previously stated, we really need a combination of 4 stats, all of which are very expensive for what they give, but synergize extremely well together. We also need to be able to get into attack range of a target, and that healing is reduced by the target's armoritem 1029 which has a value of 20g per stat because if we do less damage, we will naturally heal for less, as life steal returns a % of the damage that you do after resistances. As we want to attack quickly, and not with slow heavy autos, the health comes in at a fairly steady rate, with the risk of being in range of many gap closers on a build that cannot really afford to build any kind of resistances itself as it needs item 1036 item 1053 item 1042 item 1051 and we will include armor pen item 3134 at a lower price of 22.5 per stat for good measure for dealing with tanks, despite flat armor pen being worse than % from last whisper, as the % from last whisper is harder to calculate efficiently for it's raw value.

There are a few who can cheese out this system, notably MasterYi Yasuo TryndamereEzreal as they have some way of abusing the synergy through free stats or on hit effects.

"But Swain has to get into melee in order to sustain, that puts him in range of gap closers and danger" and you are absolutely correct. But swain is also able, and encouraged, to build defensive bruiser items, such as item 3027 , item 3157 , item 3001, item 3116, item 3151, and to a less bruiser degree and more tank degree item 3065. All of these give him naturally tankier stats which allow him to make use of the free healing in his kit, while making him harder him to kill.

"But healers have cooldowns". Yes they do. But most healers have easy access to CDR such as item 3301 item 3504 item 3050 item 3107 item 3110 item 3083 , as well as ability power to strengthen what is actually burst healing, as it does not come in at a truly steady rate like life steal. It is also important to remember that healers like SorakaSona Nami Janna don't need to actually get into range of any enemy champions to be effective with their healing. Some have abilties that are more useful when being aggressive, but are also viable being used for entirely defensive purposes.

Finally, if an adc is healing to full health with a blood thirster in 3-4 autos, they are likely full build at 40 minutes attacking someone with little to no defenses ¯\(ツ)/¯

Edit: One final note I forgot, mages tend to be cooldown based and are able to play near the back line of a fight, weaving in and out based on cooldowns as their autos are usually fairly low impact on a team fight. Because of this, mages that are squishy in their builds would not need lifesteal because they should not be close enough to take damage if they do not have an adequate way to defend themselves.

Also same counter that you stated for mundo, fiddle sticks, and swain item 3123 item 3165 item 3033 counter life steal.

NekoniClaws9 votes

It's because they're refilling a tiny cup. It doesn't take long to replenish an adc's health so it looks like a big deal.

Over Innsmouth12 votes

You're right, but the size of the cup is irrelevant if it refills so fast you need to obliterate the entire thing at once to destroy it.

Junkο4 votes

It does matter though? Killing a Draven instantly is way easier than killing a full tank Vlad instantly.

Over Innsmouth4 votes

Conversely, Vlad doesnt crit and has 3 second intervals between each instance of damage he can use. He also heals way less than Draven if the Draven doesnt instantly die.

Chembaron Yamada4 votes

You miss the point here. Of course Vladimir doesn't heal as much like Draven. If he would, Vladimir would be absolute unkillable because he is actually encouraged to build tanky (health to ap scaling).

Draven is actually killable if you burst him down. You just have to immediately burst a really tiny health bar. Meanwhile Vladimir is building health and probably some resistances (like MR with spirit visage, armor with Zonyas). You can't burst down a Vladimir, so you have to be able to slowly kill him over time. Other way around for the marksman, you can't kill him slowly, you have to burst him down.

ProfDrDeath8 votes

Because a) Lifesteal comes as sustained healing, not burst healing and b) ADCs are designed around having a weakness to burst damage. Lifesteal is an excellent mechanic from a design standpoint to ensure that weakness to burst for sustained damage dealers.

Weak to burst means that standing health pools and resistance values cannot be too high, but leaving a sustained damage dealer, who needs to stay close to the fight, with a low health pool without a chance to extend said pool leaves them too vulnerable to damage not specifically dedicated at taking them out. So, if said damage dealer cannot stay in a fight for long enough, his contribution (aka damage) in the remaining time needs to be way more significant. And I don't want to live in a world where ADCs can pop tanks on equal gold in 2 auto-attacks.

Spoofghoul4 votes

but with warlords and vampirism and BT and Runaans

we are getting closer to 22-42% lifesteal or about a third doubled in effectiveness by runaans

come late adc be critting for 1k damage

can't really call it sustained healing anymore at that point, especially with current support items making them harder to kill taking away their squishyness

they get legit several times harder to kill then tanks which is a load of bs

LightIsMyPath4 votes

But now a late game ADC isn't dpsing, he's bursting ( so ls becomes a burst heal ).. I remember once I caught fed enemy vayne as lux: I get the q and fire off my combo. In the time my r animation was ended the vayne had healed up all the damage from previous abilities from near minions, so the ultimate did not kill her.. Right after she flashed into me, qed aa and E and I was dead. 1300 damage from a crit Then they have to be kept utter trash early and mid game because late game there are these monstruosities

Theorchero12 votes

{quoted}

ADCs are designed around having a weakness to burst damage.

HAHAHAHAHA

item 3190 item 3107 item 3401 item 3072 item 3085item 3139 item 3026 summoner 3 summoner 7 https://gyazo.com/01558ce36377f7fcd354fb1602674d49.png

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FopyRHHlt3M

There are SO MANY ITEMS that give pseudo health in the form of shields and lifesteal - bloodthirster provides BOTH! ADCs literally become tanky because Crit damage bursts squishies, and with all of these shields and the ridiculous amount of lifesteal they gain, the resistances from shit like Scimitar and GA literally make them ranged bruisers with extremely high damage and mobility. Often times utility as well.

Snowman Arc6 votes

Yet ADCs are trash because they go 0/5 before these items come online. Also, ADCs are made to be weak to burst, which is why they get a support to help them through that weakness. I don't understand why that's wrong.

Troll for Trump6 votes

Except they aren't. One of the ADCs goes 10/0 and the other is 0/4. One hits that "OP standard" much higher and outpaces everyone else in the game while the other one is always behind because of how gold-dependant the ADC items are

Snowman Arc1 votes

It's not necessary that one feeds and the other gets fed. It might be the jungler who picks up the kills, or the mid laner, or the top laner. The point I'm trying to make is if you want something done in the bottom lane, you need the assist of your team, and you need them to do most of the hard work dealing the damage. That's why ADCs are trash. They are useless anywhere on the map except bottom lane, and even there, there are other champions that do the playmaking to get them ahead.

Troll for Trump1 votes

Even if the jgler gets the kills, ADCs are extremely pressed for XP/Gold. Every cs matters, and every second you're dead is worse than if any other player on your team stay. Since you split XP with the support, xp matters "more" so to speak.

ADCs are not useless anywhere on the map. They're probably the most useful, outside of jgl anywhere on the map

h5LYF41Lam3 votes

you know,as an adc main on my main account in late game no matter how much MR you build youre gonna get bursted even if that GA gave me 120 magic resist leblanc would probably still kill me in 1 spell,those items are not there to protect you from the full ap leblanc they are there to protect you from the full tank maokai.

Theorchero2 votes

{quoted}

you know,as an adc main on my main account in late game no matter how much MR you build youre gonna get bursted even if that GA gave me 120 magic resist leblanc would probably still kill me in 1 spell,those items are not there to protect you from the full ap leblanc they are there to protect you from the full tank maokai.

Late game, there is not a single ability or combination of abilities from one champion that is capable of oneshotting an ADC through ALL the shields - especially if she's able to attack something for lifesteal. Not even GP barrel can 1shot an adc through bloodthirster shield lategame. I can get em really fuckin' low, but they lifesteal back up in a couple autos anyway and live off locket shields in the meantime.

Project omen8 votes

I'm actually ok with item 3165 , because the enemy mage has to get you under 35% health for its passive. But man, item 3123 is bs. For such a low cost, you gain such an easy access to grievous wounds, it's ridiculous. Just one autoattack or an ability and there you go, you made Swain and Vlad's survivability garbage. As if Swain's sustain is decent in late game.

AninLegions7771 votes

Check the duration of both. Lool.

Ark Sorcerer3 votes

If you survived with under 35% HP, unless you are being chased and you are a Vlad, that won't have too much of an effect on you, especially seeing how in lane, at less than 35% HP you are playing way more cautiously or entered high risk, high rewards mode. Executioner's Calling is good for the entire game and laning phase.

AninLegions7772 votes

Mages are designed to burst. 35% HP is so easy to achieve and it keeps applying as long as you deal magic damage. 8 seconds is a fcking long time m8.

Ark Sorcerer1 votes

Hi Cass. How are you and your sustain damage?

8 seconds is 8 seconds. Not long at all. It feels long, but it is short time frame.

AninLegions7771 votes

LuL. Nice nitpicking. You forgot LB, Syndra, Orianna, Ryze, Annie, Ahri, Viktor, etc, who get you to 0 HP real quick but go on and talk about Cass. [slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

Ark Sorcerer1 votes

Sustain damage is exactly that, constant damage over time... Better than Teemo... (My chest is in pain)

Those other champs are burst mages. Except LeBlanc. She is an assassin. OR wait... was an assassin? I hear she is more mage like than assassin like after her rework.

Those champs are designed to do that, I just gave you an example of a champ who cannot... er... was not meant to, since her ult did get a nerf in damage to support the sustain damage bit and less of a burst.

Troll for Trump6 votes

The champs with natural healing in their kit get part of their kit negated by Executioner's as well as healing gained from other items.

ADCs lose the healing from items but not parts of their kit.

Basically, Lifesteal fks over the champs with natural healing. Since the champs sacrifice parts of their kit to put natural healing in there.

Project omen3 votes

Yes, pretty much this. And I think Swain's case is the worst, because his healing without item 3123 is ok in the mid game, bad in the late game. So with the item, he gets hit pretty hard. Too hard, in my opinion.

SettDownShutUp5 votes

The majority of ADCs are highly susceptible to CC, balancing out their high damage for their squishiness. That said, I'm in agreement that Runaan's should exclude Life-Steal from it's on hit procs.

Ark Sorcerer6 votes

Assassins are even more so susceptible to cc. And other mages, though they can try to buy time with their own cc.

Sp33d Zer01 votes

item 3814 item 3157

Ark Sorcerer1 votes

Sooo... ummm....

Katarina?

Sp33d Zer01 votes

Finishes a zhonya's in 9% of all games she is picked in. https://na.op.gg/champion/katarina/statistics/mid

Ark Sorcerer1 votes

How unlucky of me to face against the good Katarina players that build Zyhona's (Or lucky if an ally). Geez. Thought that would be higher.

Sp33d Zer01 votes

Well, as a reference point, Gunblade, her core rushed item in most games, is only finished in 16% of all game.

You have to remember that most games with a katarina end before 4 items.

That said, Zhonya's is the third most popular item that Katarina finishes in all of her games

Ark Sorcerer1 votes

Reference point helps a lot. Thanks for that. Though I must admit, Gunblade on Kat is something I do not see all that often. Akali, for sure. Kat... hmm... not my games anyway.

Limrick7 votes

Every champ is weak to CC lmao

ZodiacHeadlock6 votes

Olaf BRO!

Narasimha1 votes

Not true at all. CC a Vayne, and she loses a lot of DPS and survivability.

CC a Cho, on the other hand, and you've mostly inconvenienced him. Tanky characters as a whole care less about being cced because 1. They can typically handle what follows and 2. Most of their effectiveness is related to their cds.

Limrick1 votes

It affecting some more or less than others doesn't change the fact that an effective counter to any champ (except Olaf), is to CC them. Listing CC as a specific weakness is like saying that you counter Vayne by dealing damage to her. Like no shit.

Narasimha1 votes

A counter, by its own definition, is something that is strong against something for a certain reason. However, by your own words, cc isn't an effective counter to any champion because it isn't strong against all of them. Stun a Malphite? He's not going to care too much. Root a Mundo? That's a minor inconvenience. Well, you get the picture. You can cc any champ that isn't Olaf. It doesn't mean it's going to be equally effective, and therefore a counter, against all of them.

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