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%Max health true damage will never be balanced unless its in such a small amount that its useless.

HandheldBrandon··6 votes·1,777 views

Seriously when Vayne was release super tanks were all the rage easily sitting at 4k health and with 200-300 resistances easily.

That was 5 years ago and super tanks haven't been a serious issue since then (even in the recent cinderhulk meta they werent as bad as the super tanks) and now we have Fiora on top of Vayne who both have it and because of this there is no effective way to properly counter the %percent max health true damage. Look at Fiora right now shes taking that %percent max health true damage and going tank build while still putting out insane amounts of damage on top of her incredible mobility.

It was one thing when it was just Vayne having it as that wasn't too bad (But IMO her Silver bolts should never have been made) but now we have Fiora with it too. It has literally caused nothing but havoc in this game with Vayne early on establishing that it can also be used to quickly murder squishies as well as tanks and now Fiora proving again that %max health true damage causes nothing but problems when utilized in any kind of fashion especially on someone as mobile as she is.

It is of my opinion that %max health true damage needs to go away entirely and flat true damage should be introduced to Vayne and Fiora that way stacking health can once again be a proper counter to true damage and get rid of this insanity and havoc that %max health true damage has caused.

I don't know if you guys agree with me but before you do please explain why instead of downvoting and shiggling away.

38 Comments

Sneakyy XD2 votes

If its's useless, it's not balanced.

But yes, %HP true damage should not exist.

HandheldBrandon1 votes

Thats the thing though.

Percent hp true damage is so powerful that you have to keep its numbers so low that its intentionally weak otherwise it very quickly ramps up in power on 2 fronts.

health based Items (Which most armor items are in fiora and vaynes case) and champion level (Due to health gains.)

Crett2 votes

I HHHHHHHHHHHHHATE % health damage, because of the way it's saturating the game in an already extremely high damage meta that doesn't really need the help killing tanks anyway

fractalfantasies2 votes

Hard counterplay to Vayne's passive:

Changing your behaviour, for example, if Vayne has a ring on you you can move away so she either doesn't have a passive or has to forgo farming

AS debuffs, you need to get hit thrice in quick succession

Soft counterplay:

Building health, the more health you have, the more you will have left after she pops her three shot passive

Vaynes % health damage is a power gating mechanism to ensure she doesn't hit squishies too hard

Meanwhile it's tanks such as Amumu and Udyr who are still OP, but still they whinge and moan and complain

Nerf Zed Rito

Buff tanks Riot

Bring back Cinderhulk meta Rito

Pathetic board

HandheldBrandon1 votes

Amumu hasn't been OP in ages.

Vaynes percent max health damage works just as well on squishies as it does tanks but for squishies it acts like burst damage giving vayne an effective 3 hit nuke.

Building health does literally nothing because percent max health damage literally counters building health.

fractalfantasies2 votes

Building health does literally nothing because percent max health damage literally counters building health.

Grrr, how many times.

The point in building health to counter that means that after she activates the passive, they still have more health left, making them harder to kill. How is this difficult to understand?

HandheldBrandon1 votes

Because percent max health true damage compensates that extra health by doing more damage.

fractalfantasies2 votes

But you still have more health left over at the end, so you're still further from 0 hp

HandheldBrandon1 votes

The extra amount you have left is negligible.

say you have 1000 health and we will assume Vayne has her max W. 12 percent of 1000 is 120. (this is counting the true damage only and not the extra damage from her basic attack).

Now say you buy a ruby crystal which puts you at 1150 health. Vayne's W now hits you for 138 damage.

That means Vaynes W negated 92 percent of Ruby crystals extra health and leaves you with an extra 12 health. Thats not even a close to half of an auto attacks worth of damage of extra health so literally percent health true damage almost completely counters health stacking which is supposed to be the counter to true damage.

fractalfantasies1 votes

That means Vaynes W negated 92 percent of Ruby crystals extra health

Don't ever go into finance, or do, you're either stupid or a dishonest genius.

Clue: If you're looking at it that way, by buying Ruby Crystal, you've negated all of Vayne's W from your original HP and have an extra 12 HP left over.

HoukagoFapTime1 votes

How can it be a thing if you want it to become useless?

HandheldBrandon1 votes

Because it shouldn't be a thing to begin with.

DeathBurst1 votes

So, let me all remind you of this guy: Garen

He has %MaxHP True Damage against the Villain, it is not useless, and it is balanced.

You're welcome.

Crett3 votes

Garen's the only %health champ I'm ok with tbh. Like, if you're the villain Just Get Out The Way

Maybe Brand's ok too. Idk I just wish it'd be more of a focused strength rather than a common mechanic

fractalfantasies2 votes

Yet Brand and Garen are much more OP than Fiora and Vayne

This board is a pathetic attempt at defending Bronze freelo, honestly, people here wish for bruisers/tanks and immobile mages to just run riot over the game because they are easy to play.

Crett3 votes

I'm getting negative vibes from this post. I'm sensing. Negative energy, emanating from this post. My sensors detect a significant negative vibe I am divining the nearby influx of negative vibes, and the spirits have informed me that this post may be a source of Negative Vibes

There appears to be an imbalance of negative output when compared to the

DeathBurst1 votes

Humm... Garen was definitely OP in 5.16 --like, 10 patches ago--, but he was nerfed a few times since then. Now, he is relatively balanced, and he has never seen any competitive play, any abuse in higher ELO. On the other hand, Fiora has insane stats up to LCS.

So how comes Garen is the OP one, and how is this "defending Bronze freelo", please?

HandheldBrandon1 votes

Thats because despite the changes to Garens ultimate he still has the same binary play pattern which is easily predictable and easy to deal with. Garen will never see pro play as a mainstay because of how he plays.

DeathBurst1 votes

Are you sure you replied to the right comment? ^^' Because I don't follow you, sorry.

Definitely Bait2 votes

This post made me actually think about garen a bit. Here's what I came up with.

Garen's rework was supposed to make him more viable at higher level play and less binary.. Clearly they did a excellent job! (Sarcasm is lovely)

It's not as if he still silences, has a move speed steroid, a ultimate that is literally if within range under x hp delete them, and is very tanky. All of this while at the same time actually dealing a lot of damage if you're not kiting / ccing him.

He's literally the same champion as pre-rework with a extra true damage mechanic for fed opponents and less passive tenacity / slightly shorter silence. It's still binary. Either your within ult kill range or not. Either Garen has his silence / move speed cooldown ready or not (Silence down == chance to trade). Either your hitting him every 3 - 9 seconds or he's constantly regenerating 1% hp. You either root / stun him or he just uses Q and runs up to silence + chunk you. He is either in melee range hitting you or your at range poking him without retaliation. Your either the villain and taking true damage or your not and taking normal physical damage + magic damage from the ult.

true or false is the definition of binary. His kit follows this kind of logic either the statement is true or false.

Binary kits will be easily predictable and follow easy to identify patterns. Easy to identify patterns will have straight forward counters. If the counters are straight forward then at the professional level they will be easily executed. So at the professional level you can expect everyone to reliably use the counter patterns to the binary kit and nullify any strength the kit offers.

Garen has a binary kit so at the professional level he will be easy to predict and punish. Champions that are easy to predict and punish generally will not be chosen within professional play. That is unless the average situation is skewed to the point where the predictable action provides more advantage than the possible punishment (Overtuned / OP think Darius(another example of a binary kit) when he was pick / ban).

Garen isn't a problem at higher elo because players will know his patterns and punish them. This won't happen at low elo. Players will either just not know what he does and how to counter it or they may not have the mechanical / mental skill to do so. The binary nature at the lower end of the spectrum is skewed towards returning results of true. The opponents to garen at low elo often don't manufacture situations in which the result will be false. So he will be overly strong or unbeatable most of the time for these players.

Other binary champions that require specific circumstances or keeping track of information have the same problem. At high level play they know how to counter and abuse this binary nature. At low level play they don't know how to counter or abuse the kit's binary nature.

I'm pretty sure you can literally make a simplistic flow chart to dictate the best generic action to take in a garen matchup. There just isn't enough offshoots / other potential ways his abilities can be used. He's too simplistic.

HandheldBrandon1 votes

Very Very well written and said +1*[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]*

Dominick Destine1 votes

{quoted}

Yet Brand and Garen are much more OP than Fiora and Vayne

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

HandheldBrandon1 votes

Where did brand come from?

He doesn't even do true damage as far as i am aware he does magic damage per max health and thats on his passive on a dot no less.

DeathBurst1 votes

If you're talking about all %HP, not just True Damage, I think there are a lot more than that that are OK. Sejuani or Amumu come to mind.

Crett1 votes

Yeah, now that I think of it, that kinda stuff keeps tank damage relevant. But Then I Think Of Tahm Kench's W

HandheldBrandon1 votes

Percent health magic/physical damage is perfectly fine in my book because its countered by their respect magic resist/armor.

Flat true damage is countered by flat health but when you introduce true damage that counters its only counter (that being flat health) then you create a problem.

Big Lincoln2 votes

he has % missing HP and nobody likes dealing with his dumb fucking villain passive

DeathBurst1 votes

He has 1%MaxHP True Damage on basic attacks and spin's ticks on the Villain.

Check his kit before correcting non-existent errors. Also, I do like dealing with his awesome Villain passive. It's quite fun when you manage to kill the Villain first and then it pops over another enemy head, you kill this one, and repeat until all 5 of them are dead. Protip: if you are the Villain, do not try to fight Garen. Seriously, don't even try. Even Vayne is not a match, at similar gold levels.

HandheldBrandon1 votes

Garen doesnt get to choose who he does his true damage too he has to specifically single them out otherwise hes like normal.

DeathBurst1 votes

Yet he has %MaxHP True Damage and is balanced. Always be careful with your absolutes ;)

Dominick Destine1 votes

As others have stated before me; Garen's true damage is the only one I have no problem with. Vayne , sort of. Fiora, MASSIVELY bad, absolutely horrible decision to give her free %max health true damage.

HandheldBrandon1 votes

I have never liked Vaynes percent max health damage not in the slightest.

I was against it then and i am against it now but Fiora is a whole nother level of stupidity in my eyes. Garen however is perfectly fine.

Nagoh Shan1 votes

%max health true damage is a way to make an instance of damage equally threatening to all targets.

If it were flat damage then there wouldn't be as much a threat to tanks and bruisers who naturally build health.

If it were something other than true damage armor could make the damage negligible, so the damage would have to be in high enough amounts that it would be overly punishing to squishies.

It's there to make a mechanic un-ignorable without having to be balanced around having or not having armor/health.

HandheldBrandon1 votes

Armor is in such a poor state right now that even without percent max health true damage bruisers and true tanks would still be chunked.

Tanks and bruisers haven't been a serious problem for years.

The last time they were a huge issue was the Cinderhulk and super tank meta and the Cinderhulk meta was over a year or 2 ago and the Super tank meta was back in 2011. The issue with percent true health damage is that they do it lightly when they make it they make it in large amounts. For example at max Rank vayne gets 12 percent.

12 percent every 3 shots on top of bortk doing physical current health shred plus its active doing 10 percent max health plus lifesteal.

Vayne could auto 3 times and then use bortks active and she can very easily do close to 30-40 percent of a targets health in about 3-4 seconds. The only other type of champs that can do that kind of damage that quickly are assassins. Vayne is billed as an adc tank shredder but to squishies she behaves like a sustained damage assassin. We can literally look at Fiora and see the kind of problem it does. Fiora can forgo going full damage and instead build tanky with maybe 1-2 damage items and literally wreck anything and everything. Vayne could probably do something similar (albeit not quite as tanky) and she would probably be a huge issue as well.

In a game where balance is key you don't create a scenario where something counters its own balance because you will quickly dig yourself into a hole if its overtuned and then have to force it down to a point where its so weak that it barely has any effect.

I think my biggest issue is that it scales on 3 fronts.

It scales with champions leveling (natural health gain) Champions buying any item that contains health and level (Vaynes W rank or Fioras level/AD).

So not only does it naturally get stronger throughout the game but it also gets more powerful when champions try to itemize against it. It is a lose lose situation for the opposing player.

Nagoh Shan2 votes

Your mistake is assuming that Vayne or Fiora exist to counter Tanks and be weak against non-tanks.

They are supposed to be equally threatening to both.

The damage you're describing is also so off. 30-40% in 3-5 seconds is nothing. Mages can 1shot, Assassins don't need that long at all. It's also in line with champs like Irelia, Trynd, Yi, Yas, Jax, ect.

HandheldBrandon1 votes

Its not a mistake.

Percent max health true damage was initially designed to counter the super tanks that were running rampant in the days of Vaynes release. People like Amumu could literally wade into a fight and win the fight by simply out surviving everyone. Vayne at the time was the answer to that and she did her job splendidly. Perhaps even a little too well.

Eventually the super tank meta disappeared but Vayne was kept the way she was and then Vayne was literally running wild stomping anyone and everything in her path until they nerfed her down to a point where she was so weak that people didn't want to deal with her. Then they buffed her up a little bit and she started seeing more play. The problem is her design was literally made to counter something that is no longer a problem and hasn't been for a long time and its been proven time and time again that percent max health true damage not only does a ton of damage to fighters/tanks/bruisers but also acts like burst damage to squishy champions such as other ADC's. Its Its not uncommon an ADC to see a vayne Chunk 20 percent of your health with her 3rd shot alone and now with thunderlords its literally exacerbated and i am seeing Vaynes take out nearly 40 percent of a champions health bar in 3 shots.

Now look at Fiora.

She has that same situation with the percent health true damage and she is literally running wild top and there is not many if any champions that can actually fully take her on. Malphite is pretty much the king of anti AD champs and Fiora (excuse me for lack of better words) craps all over him with ease.

The issue is obvious in that Fiora's percent max true damage is the sole reason for that because otherwise Malphites AD stacking and attack speed slowing would get the better of Fiora because hes literally designed to counter Attack based champions. So why is a champion thats designed to counter the very thing that Fiora is? Because Percent max health true damage makes his defense items (Most of them have health in them) nearly meaningless except for the armor. But armor doesn't matter to percent max health true damage because true damage doesn't factor that in. The only thing it factors in is the enemies health so if the enemy has more health it does more damage. Buying a deadmans? that extra 500 health adds an extra 60 true damage to Vaynes W passive on top of the other damage shes doing.

That may seem like nothing but once you factor in the fact that Malphite obviously has way more than just 500 health (lets just assume hes level 10 with deadmans) that is 1771 health (not including runes and masteries) and lets assume Vayne maxed her W first Thats 212 damage in true damage every 3 shots and if Vayne has Bortk she is cranking those extremely fast. If she has a bortk shes easily putting out over almost 700-800 damage in around 6 shots from doing almost nothing but auto attacking.

Lets not forget none of this factors in the extra AD she gets from her ultimate either.

People act like the true damage is not a big part of her damage but the reality is incredibly different from what i have seen and what i have experienced.

Nagoh Shan2 votes

Fiora doesn't beat Malphite firstly. She has a 43% winrate vs him. 42% vs Rammus, 43% vs Voli, and 44% vs Naut.

Tanks are doing fine vs her. The true damage just means that people have to play around the threat rather than counterbuild.

Vayne is a hypercarry, meant to scale highly off items, not solely a tank buster.

If you can't get past those facts you will never accept the champions as they are intended, and there's nothing I can say to change that.

Definitely Bait1 votes

Vayne can definitely do something similar and be nearly as tanky. Think of a defensive sustain / kiting based build something like item 3153 item 3046item 3006 item 3072 item 3053 item 3022 .

The phantom dancer is just the most defensive option out of 3 possible second buys ( item 3094 item 3087 item 3046 ) and is probably not necessary. The move speed and minion collision ignore can help a lot with kiting and the 15% damage reduction on whoever your attacking is amazing. However, I personally find that the extra wave clear from shiv is more valuable. I like to keep lanes pushed to pressure opponents.

I should also mention that going this build is actually a bit cheaper than the standard full damage vayne. item 3153 item 3094 item 3006 item 3031 item 3139 item 3036 costs 17,100 g item 3153 item 3046 item 3006 item 3072 item 3053 item 3022 costs 16,550 g

If the mercurial scimitar (qss active) is completely necessary I'd generally replace the frozen mallet with it and build it before sterak's (Buying qss just after or slightly before finishing berserker's greaves).

If you really want to be a true bruiser then take one of these for boots item 3047 item 3111 and build item 3110 or item 3143 with item 3156 instead of item 3072 item 3022 . Just realize that your gutting even more of her damage and lowering the amount times per fight the 3 hit passive procs.

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