My Favorite Mana-using Counter to Zed in Lane

junglerboy16··6 votes·2,935 views

Master Yi.

Let that sink in for a few moments, and then read on for my analysis of why Yi is a strong counter versus Zed in lane.

  1. Master Yi is AD. Even if he runs himself OOM, he can still farm well and trade with auto attacks (mainly his passive and Wuju style for burst trade).

  2. Master Yi can push waves hard as/harder than Zed. Alpha strike can easily begin to start clearing whole minion waves after purchasing a brutalizer and some other AD. This allows for fast lane farming as well as more time to bully Zed around.

  3. Master Yi is a strong duelist and split pusher. If Zed tries to fight you early, you can usually match or out damage him. If he roams, you can push his tower extremely fast because of your wave clear and steroids.

  4. You can easily dodge his poke with alpha strike. Simply Q onto a minion when he uses his shuriken. If you position well, you can also often hit him with the damage of your Q at the same time.

  5. Your meditate counters his ult. Zed loves to burst squishies. Master Yi looks like the perfect target. He ults you, drops you to kill range, and shadows out. Your W heals for more the more hp you are missing, getting you to healthy levels very quickly after his all in if he isn't ahead enough to kill you outright (which shouldn't happen, you should be bullying him), and the massive damage reduction it grants negates a significant amount of his burst. Zed also has NO WAY to stop your meditate channel. For optimal reduction, start the channel as soon as he marks you, your channel lasts longer than his mark by a whole second and can reduce his damage twice.

  6. You scale well into late game. Whenever somebody says that you should take a bruiser versus Zed, they forget that bruisers do not carry games well, and you basically forfeit a carry when picking a bruiser into him. Yi counters him in similar ways to most bruisers (Dueling power, sustain, hard to burst), but scales into late game as a damage threat, not a tank.

  7. Late game, you can team fight better, and split push just as well as Zed. Zed, for all his raw damage, relies heavily on his ult to actually secure his kills. Yi is much more DPS focused, and since his damage is not tied to long cool down abilities (rather, critical damage from autos), he can deal much more consistent damage throughout a team fight, while still having significant burst through items and his steroids. Late game Yi is a legendary split pusher, and because of how your kit counters Zed's burst and poke, you can often force him out of split pushing (either by killing him or just smacking him around until he is forced to concede to your dominance). Once you force Zed out of the lane he was pushing, you can then push it right back at him just as hard and fast.

TL;DR: Yi is AD (OOM is less impactful), pushes harder, avoids Zed's harass, counters his burst, kills tower if he roams, and scales equally well.

Your thoughts?

EDIT: An additional advantage Master Yi has over the average mid laner is that he can fully utilize life steal, allowing for simpler sustain in lane than almost any mage who doesn't have health return naturally in their kit. Granted, Zed can also use life steal, but champions like Lissandra don't have any way to heal themselves so any poke they take hurts that much worse.

30 Comments

DJ Siamak3 votes

The ban phase counters Zed the hardest.

Also Zed will burst Yi way harder unless the Yi heavily outplays Zed and that lane favors Zed extremely hard.

junglerboy165 votes

W counters his burst. 50% damage reduction and a heal is no small thing. Basically, if he dives you under tower, you can dodge his damage with Q and then W while he has to either tank your tower or shadow out without a kill. Imo, trading a heal for his ult is pretty worth. Like I said, he can't burst you unless ahead already, which is pretty challenging for him to do because you out push, out farm, and kill tower faster.

P.S. —Of course ban phase counters Zed (It counters everyone, or at least the top 6 of everyone).

Nauthes3 votes

Vladimir For sure best counter.

Wave Clear Manaless Huge sustain Huge Poke Best of all, his pool renders Zed's ult useless

TehNACHO2 votes

As a Master Yi mid "Main", this thread made me smile.

It's so funny when Zeds underestimate Yi's early game dueling potential, then suddenly die/get chunked by a Wuju Style'd Double Strike.

Or when you completely negate his ult with a well timed W and/or Q.

Altricad2 votes

You do have a point that MasterYi can beat the majority of Zed players. But buddy, ever faced a Gold Zed main? It's a nightmare, the shurikens NEVER seem to stop. I'm not some troll or something, but me and bro, we play a LOT of custom games ( I pick YI and he picks Zed), the ONLY time, i won was when i tried the level 2 cheese with ignite. After that, he became super cautious and would poke-poke-poke me from long range. Ever time I got close, he backed and every time I went oom, he'd get close and cs.

Just saying, if a Zed player has experience playing against a MasterYi in mid lane. it's hopeless to get a lead on him.

But it is true, that late game, MasterYi can beat Zed due to the fact that you can dodge the death mark from being placed on you, and meditating his shuriken+shadow slash burst and kill him with autos. But early game, Yi will get poked mercilessly :/

I know it because 50+ custom games, and I've never won the early game matchup vs my bro as Yi vs Zed.

EDIT: Master Yi has to max his q to clear waves very quickly, and maxing q increases it's mana cost. Meanwhile Zed can easily clear waves without worring about mana ( Energy OP). In a flat out waveclear, Zed can easily push the wave. Gotta admit that Yi is better at splipushing due to his passive, double strike and that Yi builds attack speed which helps him take down towers quickly.

junglerboy161 votes

No, I have not ever faced a gold Zed main, and thanks for the well thought out response. In my opinion, a Yi versus Zed matchup tends to lean very heavily towards a skill matchup. Both do surprisingly similar things, and Yi can counter Zed in certain things, but not in others. Just wondering, do you regularly use you passive+Wuju style for harass? Because in my experience, the true damage plus the burst of double strike applying it twice can chunk a Zed quite hard, since your one attack will deal a total of 150% AD plus (assuming Wuju style is only level 1) 20+20% AD true damage. If you max Wuju style first, then your AA trade pattern like that can deal 150% AD (+60+40% AD True damage) in a single hit. You can also poke with your Q when you dodge his poke if you pay attention to his minions.

There is the problem of his Alpha strike costing so much mana on its own when you max it, and not being able to push as hard without maxing it, but you can always rely on your Passive and Wuju style for damage in a fight and you should rarely not have enough mana to cast Meditate unless really behind, meaning you can still negate his burst.

Thanks for the expert opinion though!

Diostukos1 votes

I've never tried it but I hear Annie messes him up well.

I play Sona mid in teambuilder sometimes, which is full of Zed players; most of the time her Q's range lets Sona outpoke Zed. I try not to be reliant on W as it costs quite a bit of mana. If you get an early kill off of him, you can buy sheen and you've pretty much won laning phase or 100% of the jungeler's attention.

If he tried to all-in you by himself, especially under tower, you can ult behind yourself and get some nice damage off.

junglerboy161 votes

Haven't tried Sona vs him, but she could be pretty good with Q and power cord harass, and stunning him under tower with her ult would be pretty nice too.

Annie is probably pretty good against him because of the way her Q works for farming, her stun for when he all ins, her molten shield to negate burst, and then of course her burst for when she all ins.

Byrnes1 votes

I've just defaulted to using Quinn when I don't want to deal with counters. imo, when played as a bruiser (with the matching appropriate runes and masteries) she can be in any lane against basically anyone. I have a hard time finding more than a few champions that, when played on equal footing, can straight up take her bullying and lane control.

Specifically for Zed, I just sit on top of the farm and AA him over and over. By level 3 the harass is unreal from the combination of abilities she has. 6 is of course tricky, as ever, but assuming you didnt get camped and did your bullying correctly you'll be far enough ahead to laugh at him for 10 minutes and still have equal farm.

JevelFaithful1 votes

Curiosity, what kind of runes are you talking about here? Standart bruiser runes or some kind of adc-bruiser-hybrid. I never play bruisers, sorry for the probably obvious question. I love quinn tought.

Byrnes2 votes

{quoted}

Curiosity, what kind of runes are you talking about here? Standart bruiser runes or some kind of adc-bruiser-hybrid. I never play bruisers, sorry for the probably obvious question. I love quinn tought.

Well, I mean, not like I play the bruiser role anything like it should be done either, haha, but I have two sets I run on her (basically anywhere): Generic AD Bruiser: 8.5 AD, 10% CDR, 78 HP, 9 ARMOR AS/MR AD Bruiser: 15% AS, 2.3 AD, 3% LS, 9 ARMOR, +27 MR

I prefer to go the generic one in most cases, unless I know that the majority of the enemy team is AP (in which case, I would like to think I would have thought that through before even picking Quinn). With that I run 15/13/2 masteries to give me a bit of extra bulk. I also use this with her bot lane (specifically, I pick Quinn for bot if I know that (A) they have a strong adc (Draven >.>), (B) we have multiple AD sources, and (C) I have a tanky support, in which case I get us to both run Relic Shield and just make Draven cry).

JevelFaithful1 votes

I actually appreciate the idea of taking yi.

SloshMoney1 votes

j4.

cuz j4 shits on 90% of mids. lol

Hizsoo1 votes

There is a good reason why I would not put Yi into mid lane. You see his Alpha Strike soo often, it is completely predictable, you can catch him really easily with delayed cc like Flame Chompers or Nevermove and as long as it doesn't do much damage, you should not be scared from him. Mid lane is usually a high traffic and highly pressured spot on the map, the jungler can gank it, bot and top lane can roam to it, the whole enemy team can siege it. Someone who is capable to do it will screw you up and that player might do it lot earlier if you go to mid lane. At lvl 6 Yi is still the lot more predictable one, but Zed can switch position with two of his shadows.

JJ H0G1 votes

Mordekaiser or AP Tristana are my favorite counters for zed.

BakedLotion1 votes

Does Zed's ultimate work against meditate? What i mean is, if his damage gets reduced while you channel (dmg reductions fro meditate) Will it count the damage he actually did to you, or without the reduction during the pop of the mark

junglerboy161 votes

The tool tip for his ultimate says that it deals "100% AD +20/35/50% of all damage dealt by Zed to the enemy champion while the death mark was active." Your meditate lasts longer than his death mark (4 second channel to 3 second mark) so you can reduce both the damage he deals to you during the mark, AND reduce the damage dealt when the mark pops, which effectively means that his burst can be negated twice.

Scenario 1: Zed ults you at 6 without you meditating: He deals 100% of his normal damage to you (as in, no damage reduction outside of resists), and then deals 20% of that normal damage +100% AD with the mark, or 120% normal damage +100% AD total damage dealt.

Scenario 2: Zed ults you at 6 and you meditate it: he deals 50% of his normal damage to you, because of your damage reduction, and then deals 10% of that reduced damage +50% AD with the mark, or 55% normal damage +50% AD total damage dealt. Not to mention that you heal for over 120 health during this time.

The way Meditate's damage reduction reduces the damage applied before the mark triggers and the mark itself basically neutralizes his burst. What would normally kill a squishy like Yi is reduced by OVER 50% (even though meditate only gives 50% reduction), making this an easily survivable trade. Later on as Zed gains more burst, your heal gains comparable damage reduction and healing, meaning you will always be able to survive Zed's burst if you are able to channel from the start of his damage till the time the mark pops if he is not several levels ahead (which shouldn't happen).

SmokingPuffin1 votes

Master Yi is a pretty interesting idea.

I think Kayle just wrecks Zed though. Zed can't teamfight at all against Kayle, and Kayle's ability to push and roam is no weaker than Zed's. Her late game is pretty beastly too, and he has no real way to pressure her into not getting there.

FantasticAznDude1 votes

Anivia is my go to pick vs zed atm. early levels, just dodge the shuriken and stay away from his shadows. Harass with my atuos, and q-e combo. I usually go for a tear>zhonya rush so i can dodge his ult, get seraphs, and then i get a ga or rabadon. I scale well late game, and don't get instantly deleted by zed. I also have my egg if i mess up.

Altricad1 votes

Zed can auto- you to death late game. Granted, you have your stun, but when he's zipping around like a bug with his shadows, it becomes hard to land your stun. and even if his shadow/flash is down and he can't side step the q , ulti=complete dodge. True, Ice Bird Anivia does beat Zed early, until Zed reaches ~300 AD after which he'll just auto attack you and win

FatesDefiler1 votes

i think it's eve, as long as the player is good enough to dance around last hitting with hate spikes not eating zed's poke. visage into crystal scepter. outscale zed in health and if he's dumb enough to jump on you just kick his ass. you'll be more of a presence in teamfights and just as dangerous roaming. if you can stay even with him in farm, eve is a bigger monster than zed. it's all a factor of player skill, of course.

Serenity Now

I take Fiddle.

Harass him with Darkwind. If he goes on you, Drain. By 6, he'll either be very low or have already backed. If he didn't back, it's a guaranteed kill with an ult.

Serenity Now

I take Fiddle.

Harass him with Darkwind. If he goes on you, Drain. By 6, he'll either be very low or have already backed. If he didn't back, it's a guaranteed kill with an ult.

junglerboy161 votes

I've tried fiddle, but most of the time Zed can still burst me until I get Zhonya's. The issue with Zed vs Fiddle is that if your fear is down, all you can do is silence and drain, and since he is AD (and has powerful AA damage from passive and eventually BotRK) he can still chunk you down without necessarily using spells.

Manwad

That sounds brilliant.

But I thought of something. Would full AD Vi sort of fufill the same role or is she too mana intensive?

junglerboy161 votes

I haven't played AD Vi before, since I usually take her jungle. I think it could work though, because if he ults you at 6 and you have ult too, you can just knock him up under tower. That and her shield helps against his poke, and her excessive force can poke through minions well. I'd try it out for sure, I just haven't had a chance to experiment with it.

Adeyemon

Quick question: Never tried because yi is yi but if you can time it right can you avoid death mark with q?

junglerboy161 votes

I'm not quite sure. It is worth a try, and I have a feeling you can dodge it with Q (you can dodge Zed's ult in other ways, so I assume a well timed Alpha Strike could dodge it as well). Even if you can't dodge the mark itself though, Meditating through his burst negates over 50% of the damage, even at rank 1 of W. Just make sure you start meditating before he deals damage, not to negate the mark popping. Your Meditate channel is long enough to reduce both the 3 seconds of damage and the mark itself, but if you have to meditate out of sync, meditate early rather than late.

Adeyemon1 votes

I don't play yi just curious because if someone can time that :D

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