Why is Elise a Tank in the Current Meta?

LankPants··16 votes·5,487 views
Elise, the Spider Queen Revealed

Elise is a champion who is currently forced to build tank to survive the game. To me this makes very little sense, she's a spider not the hardest of things to kill but something that will kill you very quickly. To me this sounds more like an assassin than a tank and according to Riots champion release she was designed with being a partial assassin in mind, not a weird tanky fighter thing.

Elise does not get enough of a benefit out of building AP, Her ratios are super low for a champ who is meant to be a mage/assassin. Even if you use her current in game classification of mage/fighter that doesn't answer why the hell she often rushes a juggernaut enchant into rand's/locket. The other two champs tagged mage/fighter (swain/ryze) tend to rush for ROA and AAS, Swain also builds into late game AP. The champion tagged mage/tank (vlad) builds early WotA most of the time, into late game AP. The most AP that Elise tends to build is a Rylai's and a Liandry's.

So Elise isn't fitting her theme at all. What is the solution to this problem? The first and simplest thing you can do is to buff Elise's ratios and return at least some of her spider form armour and MR in spider form at the expense of some base damage.. But honestly Elise is probably far enough gone to justify a minor rework or even a full kit rework.

52 Comments

11PHOENIX FIRE114 votes

Yes i Wholly agree with this post Elise Was so fun to play but her nerfs killed her and now she is a tank??? RIot plz help

Zirzon4 votes

I feel like they could push her back into her proper role, and viability, by nerfing her base damage and upping her AP ratios. Currently you gain such a small bonus for getting AP, you're better off building tank to live longer to use your base damage more. If you didn't deal as much without building damage, people won't build as tanky (which I felt never fit her kit).

Hilltop Sunset1 votes

What if instead of % health/health missing damage, she had an AP scaling that fluctuated depending on how much AP the enemy has/was missing? I wonder if doing something like that would be possible... that you still have the mechanic of getting stronger/weaker moves based on enemy HP, but it's not percentage-based.

Subject 54 votes

She attempted at contesting LeeSin

LankPants1 votes

We must all hail the mighty god of LCS #LC$bigplays

support5life3 votes

She isn't required to build tanky. In fact, she is quite fun as a mage. The reason people prefer tanky Elise is because she does % damage and doesn't have the best scaling. And since the damage increase isn't that large from going AP, the survivability that tankiness gives increases her overall damage output (over a longer time, obviously).

The other thing is, like we were all chatting about on a different thread a few nights ago, she was never intended to be a jungler anyway - instead she was supposed to be a sort of niche top lane pick to counter the tanky-top meta of the time. And she does that job well.

The good news is, for all of you Elise players, is that while Riot LOVES to make champions that fill particular roles, they've made it clear they actually want to kill all of the niche champions one by one. This of course means the game will become bland and boring (which I think we can all say we're starting to feel), but hey - at least we will be able to play all champions in every role all the time!

LankPants4 votes

instead she was supposed to be a sort of niche top lane pick to counter the tanky-top meta of the time. And she does that job well.

She wasn't intended to be a niche top lanner. Elise was created before ranged top was a huge thing, the only ranged tops when Elise was created were Vlad and Kennen, who both need to get in close to a fight even more than Elise. She was designed as a jungler, this is proved by her champ preview (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOz4uDKs2dM ) but her secondary role was intended to be mid lane.

The good news is, for all of you Elise players, is that while Riot LOVES to make champions that fill particular roles, they've made it clear they actually want to kill all of the niche champions one by one. This of course means the game will become bland and boring (which I think we can all say we're starting to feel), but hey - at least we will be able to play all champions in every role all the time!

There's a fine line between champs who fill every role like current Elise, Jayce and Kayle and champs who can only fill one role. Champs who can fill every role arguably homogenise the game more as they are a pick/ban when viable 100% of the time.

she does % damage and doesn't have the best scaling. And since the damage increase isn't that large from going AP

This is basically what I feel her main problem is. She's a mage, she should get benefit from AP.

support5life2 votes

I agree with the majority of this.

Though Im confused about your first response - she was intended to be a niche pick against tanky top laners, this has nothing to do with whether or not ranged top laners were a thing. In fact, the fact that ranged top laners weren't a thing provides evidence that she was in fact a niche pick against the top tanky bruisers, even if that was not her officially stated role. :>

LankPants4 votes

TF was intended to be an ADC, the fact he was picked up as a mage is not his intended roll. Pre-rework Kass was intended as a bruiser... thing, he was never meant to be built AP Elise was designed for jungle/mid before being picked up as a top laner. Intention=/=Design

Also Elise wasn't strong top until just after Irelia and Jayce fell from grace, she couldn't counter S2 bruisers outside of Darius and only rose after caster/bruisers like Ren and Riven started to become popular, she still struggles against the champs that were popular top lane at her release.

Destínum1 votes

{quoted}

TF was intended to be an ADC, the fact he was picked up as a mage is not his intended roll. Pre-rework Kass was intended as a bruiser... thing, he was never meant to be built AP

Dafak are you talking about? TF has always been intended as an auto attacking mage and Kassadin has always been an assassin at heart.

LankPants1 votes

Look up beta TF and Kass. Their recommended builds were ADC and something...

Destínum1 votes

Probably because TF had some other abilities back then. One of them gave him increased crit I think for example.

LankPants1 votes

Bro he was played ADC with the exact same skillset. He only changed to AP being common around half way through season 2. He was played as a split push ADC when his ult range was global.

Destínum1 votes

Yeah, but he was always intended to be a mage, just like Elise was always intended to be a jungler. People just chose to play him ADC at first, just like they chose to play Elise top at first.

LankPants1 votes

I can't necessary talk on the intent of TF as I wasn't playing back then. I never argued against Elise's intent as a jungle though.

Also the Twisted fate champ spotlight portrays him as ether an AD or an on hit based champ. Since this was the earliest source I could find I'm going to chose to believe his intent was AD or on hit, find me something disproving this and I'll believe you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8Ai_Aw-5fc

Destínum1 votes

Well, I remember a red saying that the intention of TF was always that of a roaming burst mage, rather than a dps focused adc/apc. Since I can't find the exact quote though, I guess I can't really prove it to you.

Hilltop Sunset1 votes

I don't know how you can still say that after watching the literal champion spotlight of TF, where the two builds suggested were AP-on-hit with the broken Madred's Bloodrazor or ADC. Like, those were literally the only two builds mentioned.

Narasimha1 votes

You're slightly off. Yes, she was created in response to the growing tank meta, but she wasn't meant to be a top laner herself. Her home has always been in the jungle.

Abyssphere2 votes

Buff the scaling on her Qs while reducing the base damage a tad and give her a bit of bulk back so she won't get blown up instantly and she'll be able to build AP again.

Junkο2 votes

Spiders don't kill quickly. most dangerous spiders use poison. Except during mating where females eat their mates alive if they fuck up

LankPants2 votes

Most spiders also aren't bigger than you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goliath_birdeater

Worlds biggest spider, it isn't highly poisonous to humans, it's bite causes minor swelling. But against smaller prey (which most champs would be to Elise) its venom is deadly in seconds, seems fairly quick to me.

MetalGearTeemu2 votes

She got nerfed into the dirt because of her ability to tower dive. Elise in the woods means that your top and mid laner is pressured at tower even at high health precents, her mix of gap closing, cc, high base damage and ability to go invulnerable/drop tower aggro instantly allows her to pull off dives and kills in top and mid which are simply not possible for other heros.

Another case of the horrible cocktail of mobility/utility/damage all in one kit.

LankPants2 votes

She got nerfed into the dirt because of her ability to tower dive. Elise in the woods means that your top and mid laner is pressured at tower even at high health precents

A few points here. Shifting her damage more to scaling and making her build squishier hurts her towerdiving ability unless she's with someone else who is good a tanking a tower. Lowering bases and upping ratios would also be likely to shift her away from jungle and back to top lane, since she would actually have a stat to scale off at this point.

Leti the Yeti1 votes

maybe cuz Elise is melee(spider form where yo do ur killing)... un like all those other mages that are good to go with above average hp and I dont think her burst is comparable to any assassin.... so she isnt safe, nor can she blow up someone best solution is to not get stomped

LankPants1 votes

How about rumble then, tagged fighter/mage, Elises inverse, melee champ with no ranged autos and a reliance on a close ranged DOT to deal damage. Still gets far more from AP than Elise. Diana is in the same category as Rumble and arguably needs to utilise melee more than Elise and yet still gets more from AP.

I dont think her burst is comparable to any assassin.... so she isnt safe, nor can she blow up someone

I think I mentioned her lack of damage as a major problem in the OP.

best solution is to not get stomped

TY very helpful, 10/10 advice.

Champion Skin1 votes

Well the problem isn't just her lack of damage it is also the kind of damage As long as Elise needs to be in melee range and deals sustained damage she will need some durability or some way to stay in the fray and not get blown up

And well if you want Elise to get more out of AP she will likely have to lose some base damage as she is decent now and simply giving her more damage might make her op

LankPants3 votes

And well if you want Elise to get more out of AP she will likely have to lose some base damage

I've been saying lower bases up ratios throughout the entire thread.

she is decent now and simply giving her more damage might make her op

Normally I wouldn't use win rate as a judgement of power but an exception can be made for a win rate of 42% across all regions making her the lowest win rate champ. Elise is not OK and giving her small buffs will not make her OP.

As long as Elise needs to be in melee range and deals sustained damage she will need some durability or some way to stay in the fray and not get blown up

item 3157 , item 3001 , item 3027 , item 3116 are all good ways a more AP orientated champ can build tanky.

Champion Skin1 votes

Why would you want to choose an assassin that needs items with both offensive and defensive items when you could choose someone like Ahri who has range and mobility to rather avoid damage then needing to build items to absorb the damage?

And Ahri can just rush DFG or some other very aggressive item something which likely won't work out so well if you are short ranged and don't have any way of getting out of a bad spot

LankPants1 votes

Because an assassin who can tank some damage is more powerful in some cases. If you get CC'd as Ahri in the enemies range you die. If you're a bit tankier you might have a chance.

People chose Diana a lot when she wasn't trash.

Champion Skin1 votes

Because back then Diana was had the damage of an Assassin with the durability of a tank or bruiser

Assassins who can take some damage is generally more oppressive in lane while being much weaker in teamfights as there you generally need more durability then you would have as an assassin to survive focus or being targeted/CC'ed

LankPants1 votes

How about Kha'zix then? It's common to build a few damage items on Kha before transitioning into more of a bruiser build.

Champion Skin1 votes

Yes? Kha'Zix doesn't have that much damage unless isolated and there is nothing special about that most bruisers start with a couple of damage items before going for mostly defensive items Irelia usually does so do Jax

Assassins usually have high mobility and damage but low durability and CC

Bruisers usually have a combination of decent damage and durability and varying degree of CC and mobility (but they usually deals sustained damage so they need some time to deal their damage and during that time they need to survive therefor they have a need to be durable)

Tanks usually have low damage and high durability and high amounts of CC and usually some mobility at least to get into the fray

And if you give an assassin durability you will have to cut either their mobility or their damage and if you cut their damage they will either end up as failed assassins since they deal burst damage but not enough to kill their target or they turn into bruisers who have decent or good damage but needs time to deal it

And if you cut the mobility the assassin would likely have problems reaching the priority targets which assassins would want to target (I guess this would kind of be like some of the melee champions if they reach you they will chew you up but they generally don't have that great of a way of reaching you)

Kowe The Ewok1 votes

Because the most efficient way to use Elise consists in abusing her % damage (which is high regardless of Ap) while being extremely tanky.

However, this doesn't really work with jungle income. Imho she's much better at top.

LankPants2 votes

Because the most efficient way to use Elise consists in abusing her % damage (which is high regardless of Ap) while being extremely tanky.

But does this seem fitting for the champion?

Wouldn't it seem better if Elise was actually doing what it looks like she should. She turns into a giant spider, jumps into your face and... annoys you a little. Even with her current design you can make AP more attractive by lowering bases and buffing ratios. A rework will eventually be required though IMO.

However, this doesn't really work with jungle income. Imho she's much better at top.

I'd much prefer Elise to fill a lane roll, but at the moment she's outclassed top lane and taking her mid is stupid. Infact she's also outclassed in the jungle fairly badly so there's that too.

Kowe The Ewok8 votes

I believe her kit is problematic (Not to mention her dash and how off the range indicator of it is).

Imho she needs a rework.

As for her role. I consider the concept of a spider more fitting for an assassin than a tank.

LankPants2 votes

I believe her kit is problematic (Not to mention her dash and how off the range indicator of it is).

That's because it calculates as an auto attack, it never used to, don't know why they changed it, it generally fucked the ability up, but that's how it works now.

As for her role. I consider the concept of a spider more fitting for an assassin than a tank.

Yep.

Champion Skin3 votes

The problem with Elise as an assassin as she currently is She has high base damages (this can encourage building defensively and simply relying on the base damages), her ratios are rather horrible so build AD/AP like an assassin would usually do doesn't really pay off so much because of the bad ratios And Elise also deals sustained damage with her spiderlings, spiderform W and spider form auto-attacks and this combined with her bad ratios and high base damage makes it natural to go for some sort of bruiser build

(And Elise could have some problems if built like an assassin in that she has to in melee range to use her finisher and she has no way of getting out, other then possibly repelling but it isn't very reliable as it only target enemies.. so then you might be able to kill your target but you would pretty much be stuck in the enemy team while not being very tanky so you would pretty much at best trade 1 for 1 as Elise's kit is now)

LankPants1 votes

My old idea for an Elise rework was to centrer her around a stacking DOT, skillshot based, ultra low CD Q in human form. Then scale her Q damage off of how many stacks a target has and give it some extra range against targets with at least 3/5 stacks on them. I feel this would fix a lot of the issues you bought up and maybe with a change to how spider W works allow her to build for more burst.

HandheldBrandon1 votes

{quoted}

But does this seem fitting for the champion?

Wouldn't it seem better if Elise was actually doing what it looks like she should. She turns into a giant spider, jumps into your face and... annoys you a little. Even with her current design you can make AP more attractive by lowering bases and buffing ratios. A rework will eventually be required though IMO.

I'd much prefer Elise to fill a lane roll, but at the moment she's outclassed top lane and taking her mid is stupid. Infact she's also outclassed in the jungle fairly badly so there's that too.

We already had the Elise spider jungle assassin. People absolutely hated dealing with it so Riot nerfed it then people continued to abuse it so Riot had to nerf it again and again. Why dont people remember this?

It was literally pick Elise jungle or ban her or lose the game thats how bad it was. She would gank lane snare you and then blow you up with the help of her laner. It was incredibly frustrating to deal with.

LankPants1 votes

Elise has never been pick or ban as an assassin, only as a tank or AP bruiser.

HandheldBrandon1 votes

Oh god yes she was did you not see the entire LCS series where she was picked in almost 90 percent of the games. Early on people built her with damage which gave her assassin level burst right out of the jungle then later should would build tankier items and suddenly she had this crazy damage along with this crazy tank and amazing getaway ability and you couldnt stop her.

LankPants1 votes

She was played almost entirely tank, she rushed freaking ancient golem most of the time.

And what you're talking about is a bruiser anyway, several of them go damage early for assassin level burst like Irelia.

Dingding1231 votes

Because she has Zhonya's and Flash in one move. She's one of the few melee champions that doesn't have to rely on health in order to stick around fights, and she's not even fully melee.

LankPants2 votes

Fizz has Zhonya's and flash in one move, Vlad has Zhonya's and ghost. They both scale well with AP so it doesn't seem like a good reason why Elise should be stuck going full tank.

Edit: Zed's a lot like Vlad, I blame mortal kombat and it's damn blood ninjas.

Champion Skin1 votes

I didn't know you could only flash to enemies

CoolKnightST1 votes

I actualy liked her buildstyle: Build Damage & in the lategame she becomes a secondary tank. Bit similar to LeeSin but than for AP. But maybe a little bit more damage oriënted. Basicly a AP bruisers what would make sence for her kit.

This should be her main build: item 3708item 3151item 3020item 3116

She should be a early jungler that will fall off lategame.

LankPants2 votes

It's not her build in most cases though, it's more like item 3709 item 3020 item 3110 item 3190 .

CoolKnightST1 votes

It really depends on the situation. So far the recent Elise builds I saw was:

item 3709item 2049item 3047item 3143item 3211 (if she felt behind)

item 3709item 3136item 3020item 3068item 3075 (if she does well)

So I guess her current build is:

item 3706item 1001 > item 3709 > item 1028 and continues building towards that. It doesn't seem to be like item 3708 is an option for her right now. That's just f*ckup since she suppose to be building damage & than go tank. Not the other way arround.

Skia Asteri1 votes

The problem with AP builds is AP items are centered around burst patterns (except for item 3115 ), and AP needs more AP to scale well. This leaves champions that take too long to do damage with few options.

In the case of Elise, her 'full' combo includes 3 seconds of increased AS. That is a fairly long time to survive at melee range in a team fight if you did not build full tank.

Champion Skin1 votes

Well there are some mages who deals some sustained damage though they also have a rather front loaded damage as well like Swain or Ryze There is also Azir and Cassiopeia who also deals pretty good sustained damage for AP/mages

More from Gameplay

More by LankPants