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Problems with the Sejuani Rework

LankPants·4/19/2017, 4:13:49 AM·30 votes·5,000 views
4/18 PBE Update

Now that the numbers on the Sejuani rework are starting to come through I feel confident enough in my original opinions with nothing in the numbers shaking them as well as seeing new problems in the rework that weren't originally clear to me thanks to the PBE reveal. I see several major problems with the rework as well as a far few lesser ones which I think ultimately contribute to this being an overall very poor rework. I'm going to list these issues in the order I believe to be their significance with the largest issues closer to the top of the thread.

  1. Sejuani's extreme synergy with and possible reliance on certain melee champions: This was one of the first issues I saw with the Sejuani rework and I believe it to be the most immediately obvious. Sejuani's synergy with certain melee champions is going to be absurd, for example Renekton Es in with fury and AA>Ws, you now have 4 stacks of Sejuani's E on you regardless of if Sejuani ever touched you and are vulnerable to her chaining CC on you with 0 effort. The champions I think have the potential to become massively problematic here are Blitzcrank Camille Darius Evelynn Fiora Fizz Gangplank Irelia Jayce Leona MasterYi Nidalee Renekton Shyvana Vi MonkeyKing Yasuo . To be clear as well it's not that these champs are problematic, it's that Sejuani will be when paired with one.

  2. Sejuani's damage has been shifted almost entirely onto her passive, giving her problematic amounts of burst damage with an R>AA dealing 25% max HP damage in the late game while also gimping her sustained damage output with W. IMO one of the best things about Sej's current design is that she doesn't have a lot of burst, she's a solid DPS threat but her lack of burst stops the whole "Maokai dealt 75% of my HP instantly" BS from happening, why would you want to change that?

  3. Sejuani's W dealing physical damage: This one leaves me scratching my head. There's really no good reason for it. All this serves to do is make what should be Sejuani's main damage ability far less reliable and powerful since almost every champ has far less MR than armour and kill off build diversity for Sej by making Liandry's far worse. This is one of those cases where I fail to see any positives for the ability being physical damage rather than magic damage.

  4. Lack of thematic identity: I don't personally care about this one but I'll leave it here considering it seemed to be about 90% of Riot's reason for this rework. They failed to hit their goal of making Sejuani feel like a leader (like her old kit did anyway). Sejuani now feels like a follower, waiting patiently for her Renekton, Irelia or Leona to dive in so she can followup stun the target that they engage on.

There's two changes that I think need to be made to address these issues.

  1. Shift damage off of the passive and onto W and possibly R, make W magic damage again.
  2. Remove melee champion's ability to proc Sej's stun, make it easier for Sej to, this could be 3 stacks, Q now stacks, R stacks on impact/detonation or some combination thereof.

If these changes are made I think that the rework has the potential to be good, if it goes through as it is it will be amongst the worst reworks ever.

36 Comments

Flemman4/19/2017, 7:13:25 AM6 votes

It's just Malzahar all over again with an absurd defensive passive taking all the budget they gained from the ult.

I would mind if they take some of that power to make the ennemy grounded during E travel time

Silverjust4/19/2017, 8:27:26 PM4 votes

I like the Idea of the synergy with melee-champions. but aou are right, they got the power of the abilities wrong, and she is not really th leader.

Maybe riot should change it, so she has to add the first stack like Braum. The Stacks could also be applied by her ult and Q.

TEKadeo4/19/2017, 7:37:46 AM2 votes

I initially was super skeptical but now I think I see the truth: They don't want her to be a stun-bot anymore, they want her to reach out to her other classification which is FIGHTER. Think about it: Build her how you would Hecarim. Cinderhulk is fine, but follow it up with a frickin' TriForce. Now you have the Sheen proc, plus Phage/Movement speed to stick and Attack Speed to stack your passive faster. Add a little HP and Mana and that sweet 20% CDR. Nothing on this item is bad for you now...Afterwards you can keep building her fighter or go full tank.

I was thinking Cinderhulk/TriForce/Frozen Mallet/Titanic Hydra/CDR Boots/Gargoyle Stoneplate. But honestly going Bloodrazor into Titanic might be good by itself depending on the situation. But I maintain you will want some form of Attack Speed whether it's Bloodrazor or TriForce or a damn Guinsoo's.

Your passive gives you a ton of resists, but they are kind of fake (only lasts 1/2/3 seconds wtf) so feel free to add in resists, I'm thinking Banshee's or Abyssal with a DMP. That new Gargoyle Stoneplate will be HUGE for us too.

Blue Smite may also be mandatory now (I use the Warding one mostly right now) since you no longer have a slow on your pre-6 kit.

After seeing some gameplay and looking at numbers, I am less worried. I know this is crazy talk, but lets be real: she is damn near a new champion. I am all for your suggestions, honestly, but I think we can make this work. I think you can compare her passive stacking mechanic to Yasuo more than Braum...she does not NEED others to proc it, she can do it all herself---she can get two stacks all by herself with her W. Other melee are just a luxury.

Linna Excel4/19/2017, 4:27:01 AM2 votes

How does she get 4 stacks of frost on a target without a melee ally? Her W applies 2 and that's it. Does her E passive apply to her as well because it sounds like it only applies to allies. My biggest problem with her E is as the jungler, she can only expect 1 melee ally on her team, and that's at top. Support and mid are iffy.

Her passive looks like you want to switch targets after you stun someone.

Anyways, yes this rework kind of sucks. I mean pre-rework I'd be happy to play her in the jungle even if she's a bit weak right now, but I'm not sure she'll be any fun post rework. I think I lost my only jungle tank I liked to play.

Misticaltom4/19/2017, 9:28:33 PM1 votes

I'd like if Sejuani's new Mace Smash Winters Wrath W WAS WHAT STUNNED ENEMIES. Imagine if she could stun them by properly hitting her W on frozen Targets, YOU'D HAVE A COOL AOE STUN THAT PEOPLE COULD AVOID!

But nope, let's just keep Permafrost Perma boring press to cc. It could be something coolio too.

I really like the W's visuals and her new Ultimate. Those are fine.

AND I HATE THE ICE BOAR. WHY ARE YOU THROWING ICE ON THE BOAR?

RogueWill4/20/2017, 1:00:55 AM1 votes

Prepare because here comes Juggernaut Sejuani and expect builds (and be played) exactly like Chogath.

They removed all the AoE utility from her kit, what is left is a slow that previously we could get with E. The only other tank that I can think of that only have single target utility are Nunu (guess what another massive aoe slow) DrMundo Garen to some extent Nasus Pantheon Renekton and Volibear and do you know what all those champions have in common? they all do shit ton damage and most of them are considered juggernauts.

Since know do shit to of damage with the second part of my W (40% of sejuani max HP, so if I have 3k Hp Ill be hitting by 1.2k damage, and if you go hit by the first part is an extra 10% so you just got hit by 1.5k damage, congrats you just got one shoted),

Like seriously expect sejuani to rush HP and HP alone (and get set of hybrid pen). Why do I need resistances when my passive does the same as malzahar (100% sej res +100, so with my 80 base armor I get 260 armor without items, passive last 3 sec and when have you seen teamfights going for more than 5 sec where the tanks survives?)

My new Sejuani Build item 3027 item 3152 item 3143 item 3065 item 3083 item 3020 if you are jungle (why if you can just bully top but whatevers) change item 3027 item 3152 for item 1401 item 3030

Kilanost4/20/2017, 7:58:39 AM1 votes

People have been making a lot of posts about the tank rework and after watching game play of all 3 tanks, I began replying to those posts. Below is my reply to one of those posts that I felt would be worth making into its own independent thread:

Literally the only thing Sej needed before the rework was increased damage to jungle monsters. She had exactly what they wanted in tanks: Low damage, high CC. In fact, my nickname for Sej was "The CC Queen." Now, they removed her most consistent form of CC (the slow on her E) and made it so the skill can only be used it stacked 4 times which requires the help of ONLY melee champions to do. Playing on a team with a Thresh support and a Rumble top? This skill is useless. Having 20% of your kit so dependent on having a team with at least 1 other melee auto attacker is ridiculous. This screams of the roll out being rushed. They had a deadline of the end of Spring split and had this passive on the table and said "hmm, seems strong if everyone can stack it (a mechanic that is already in the game Braum ) but the dead line is tomorrow. Lets just make it melee only. But then they did the most contradictory thing ever. They gave a tank 25% max health magic damage. So the end result of trying to lower tank damage and increase CC for Sej was remove her main source of CC and give her shit tons of burst. They literally took the champion that did exactly what they thought tanks should be doing and made her the exact opposite of that.

Want another example of how rushed this dog shit tank update is? Here we go:

Look at zac's ult. First thing it does is remove movement impairing effects. BUT then you have to channel his ult for up to 2.5 seconds. So remove movement impairment but force the champion to sit there anyway to use his ult. Put the cleanse on his E so he has a decent escape because his old Ulti helped him get out of shitty situations which he is highly susceptible to mid game. Also, one of the benefits of his old ult was that it spewed blobs all over the place for some healing after the initial engage. Where is that? Its bad enough the blobs spawn so far away now (an old nerf) but now you get that much less of them? Lets not even go into how they tried to introduce extra CC into his kit by removing the extremely consistent and useful AOE slow on hsi Q and making it an ability that only affects the first enemy hit. Then you have to find another enemy nearby to smash into them. Ive watched 2 full game plays and I've only seen this "smash" successfully pulled off once on an enemy champion. So between that inconsistency and how easy it is to dash/flash/walk out of Zac's ulti, they've essentially made the only two things in his kit that they changed completely inconsistent. Wanted to fix pre PBE zac? Knock some damage off each of his ulti bounces. Done. Seriously of all the tanks to choose, why rework the one that feels the most satisfying to play that is already extremely unique?

Or we can talk Maokai:

Here's a guy who was the tankiest champion in the game. The PBE rework has no damage mitigation in his otherwise completely weak kit. The best thing that he has for sustain is his passive which now has a ridiculously high cooldown for most of the game.... which was the only thing that really allowed him to sustain in many of the lanes he was in. They made his travel time on his root so slow that people have enough time to play a ward and ward hop to a turret (or just dash or walk) so that if you use it in lane, you run a high risk of taking turret fire. Or, if you're Quinn, you just out run it. Yes thats right, you can flat out outrun Maokai's point and click snare and pull him a decent distance toward where you can get an easy kill. On top of that, they moved his %health damage to his sapling toss which has a flat 12 second cooldown at all levels and its full damage is completely dependent on being placed in bushes. So now he has zero lane damage (because saplings 9 times out of 10 end up running toward minions after the enemy champion starts walking away) and also poor lane sustain and zero damage mitigation for late game. What does he have now? A nami ult that is so slow people can just walk out of range so the only way its hitting anyone is point blank in which case it only snares for .6 seconds and affects no one else behind the person first hit. So basically this rework is probably the largest failure because he has no ability to consistently tank damage, his snare has just as much of a chance of getting him killed as it does making a play, and he has no lane presence because most of his damage got transfered to an ability that chooses its own aggro so people can just walk away form it and let it aggro a minion or even just out run the damage entirely. So basically they took the best tank in the game, removed his damage mitigation, nerfed his passive to high hell, took the %health damage he could consistently hit (at the risk of over extending) and moved it to an ability with a flat 12 second cooldown that you have no control over after it lands that is easily the 2nd easiest ability to out run in the game, second only to his new, shittier nami ult rip off.

These reworks are a fucking abomination. Straight up hot garbage.

Shyni2x7/1/2017, 1:44:14 PM1 votes

Sejuani was my favorite champion since her release. I plyed her jungle and sometime mid or supp. Now she can't jungle, she can't clear wave, so she can't mid or any other lane. Is she supposed to be played as support ??? Com on rito, stop your shit.

Report Evelynn7/1/2017, 1:48:28 PM1 votes

Can we talk about the lackluster skins? I don't think they look good at all, while i like the concepts and splash's.

yay nibbers4/19/2017, 1:33:09 PM1 votes

I'm going to miss occasionally playing AP Sejuani. Don't do it as much anymore but I used to do it all the time, it was great fun. Now it looks even less doable. I hope they at least add AP scaling to her new W (and y'know, make it magic damage).

KONO RUBICK DA4/19/2017, 1:43:22 PM1 votes

{quoted}

  1. Sejuani's W dealing physical damage: This one leaves me scratching my head. There's really no good reason for it.

tanks damage should fall off in late game and the best way to do that is to give her physical damage as ranged champions have tons of armor/lvl

cocacolalips4/19/2017, 8:47:38 PM1 votes

Shyvana does mixed damage (the other way around for her, Q is physical, W is magical) and no one complains. It really depends on the numbers tied to the skills. Shyvana does a fck tons of dmg, which makes it difficult for ppl to itemize against.