Tanks Need a God-Tier Core Item.

LankPants··47 votes·6,411 views

At the moment the only viable tanks in the game are the guys with insane damage mitigation, for example Alistar Maokai Braum. This largely stems from the fact that tanks lack a core item as powerful as other classes to multiply their survivability. ADC's have item 3031 and item 3035 to greatly multiply their power. Mages and AP assassins have item 3089, item 3128 and item 3135 while AD assassins have item 3134 and its build-paths and item 3035. Hell even bruisers have a powerful item to multiply their power in item 3078.

Tanks lack any powerful item to multiply their power, with the closest items they can build to being big power multipliers being item 3143, item 3068, item 3190 and item 3065 as they give multiple defensive stats. All these items are unable to keep up with their offensive counterparts however, and even in the jungle items item 3725 is less cost efficient than item 3723 or item 3724. The idea that any amount of changes to the jungle can help to bring tanks back into the meta is flawed, tanks aren't not played because the jungle doesn't favour them, they're ignored because their itemisation sucks.

249 Comments

Rebonack16 votes

Tanks used to have a God Tier defensive item.

It was called Runic Bulwark.

And Riot removed it because Mages were crying that they had to build Voidstaff as a second item in order to vaporize everything instead of Deathcap.

LankPants9 votes

Well it was good while it lasted :p I don't feel like bulwark is the right direction for tanks however, a tank should be about making you hard to kill, and through disruption making your team hard to kill, not just making your team hard to kill. Also look up S2 Aegis, that thing was really a god tier aura item.

Rebonack4 votes

{quoted}

Well it was good while it lasted :p I don't feel like bulwark is the right direction for tanks however, a tank should be about making you hard to kill, and through disruption making your team hard to kill, not just making your team hard to kill. Also look up S2 Aegis, that thing was really a god tier aura item.

Auras are actually a really great tanking mechanic.

See, the point of a Tank is to make a champion that's enough of a threat to the enemy team that they want to remove them from the picture. However, they're tanky and so that's hard to do. 'Threat' can be created by having oodles of CC (Leona), lots of AoE damage over time (Amumu and Rammus), some way to amplify the damage of your team (Amumu and Rammus again), by forcibly soaking attacks (Braum), or by putting out aura effects that make your team members significantly harder to kill and/or stronger (Taric goes this route).

Zeke's is (sort of) a Tank item, unfortunately its Tank stats aren't good enough to do the job. I wouldn't mind Zeke's getting remade into a sort of replacement for Runic, except instead of a resist aura is has its AD/Lifesteal aura in addition to some solid mitigation. So long as you're alive your buddies get a nice boost. And mitigation works better with Lifesteal than HP does, anywho.

LankPants4 votes

It's a direction you could go in. It just goes against the whole invisible power thing riot always talks about. When I play a tank who isn't Taric I don't feel like my power is in aura's, even when I have them, I feel like my power comes from the ability to lock people down as a Leona, Alistar or Zac, deal damage as a Shyvana or Mundo, or I fall half way between the two as Sejuani or Amumu. While I agree that there should be aura items and they should definitely be better than Zeke's I don't feel like making all tanks reliant on them is a great idea.

Dreadlocks11 votes

Either increase the cost of void staff and last whisper or make the % they ignore less? Idk

WiegrafOfValor2 votes

Rito should focus more on flat pen and leave % pen behind, nerf it or get rid of it.

They could change item 3035 to:

+80 AD // unique: 15% AR REDUCTION or +60 AD // unique: 25 AR. PEN or +60 AD // unique active: Next basic atack will ignore 45% target's AR, 2s duration. 45 sec CD.

They can also change the item 3135 to:

+90 AP // unique active: Cast a projectile facing the cursor that deals 60% AP on a small area, ignoring 75% target's MR. ( range: 1100, medium projectile speed, can hit minions ) or +70 AP // unique active: Apply blue flame burning debuff to the target. ( range: 500 ). 60 sec CD.

. BLUE FLAME BURNING: Deals 15 + 10% AP magical damage and reduce target's MR by 5% per second for 5 seconds.

Sasogwa10 votes

Completely agree with the topic, lategame tanks don't soak enough damage. They are only half decent when facing a full AD/ full AP team or to survive long enough to place a crucial CC in the other team. Tanks aren't played for tanking but for their CC, which is a bit sad and puts pure tanks out of viability (Shen being a random example). A defense multiplier/ arpen or crit reducer would be awesome to deal with this problem.

Ps: I'm pretty happy IE was nerfed on PBE though

Ale non è male7 votes

LOL at the OP not even mentioning the main item that has damaged tanks, namely item 3153 Tanks can't use their god-tier core item ( item 3083 ), because simply they are countered too much in stacking health by BoTRK

LankPants3 votes

Warmogs is far from god-tier it gives 800 hp, that's it. Compared to the other items I mentioned both BoRK and Warmogs aren't that good. All of the other items are core items that you will see on every end game build and generally increase damage by upwards of 50% through their stats and passives.

There is nothing that a tank can buy to come close to this. A Randuins won't increase your survivability VS an ADC by 30% and a Warmogs does almost nothing. Also that ADC with an IE increased his damage by 50% VS everyone, not just you. If a mage starts to fight you with your Randuins as an only item you're completely screwed.

Epilogue of Life5 votes

More like tanks don't need it because they already don't die to less than 3 people....

LankPants27 votes

This is complete bull. I've seen two item Zed's burst through 3 item tanks, Tanks at the moment are nothing to a fed ADC or assassin, even when they themselves are fed. Disregard this if said tank was a Maokai or Alistar, they are probably the last tanks able to actually tank in the game.

Epilogue of Life3 votes

Maybe cuz, like, tank let Zed hammer away at him during the 3 seconds of his ult? Maybe if he CC'ed and ran around a little, things woulda been different? 3 seconds of danger once like every 90 sec early on, is it that hard to play around? Maybe if the tank didn't feel the need to be a target dummy, you know...

LankPants33 votes

Or maybe Last Whisper is completely absurd.

Epilogue of Life1 votes

But then it gets rid of 35% of the armor you bought, while doing nothing to your absurd amount of health?

LankPants16 votes

If it was any other assassin I'd agree but Zed has another item that he likes to rush that deals with HP quite effectively.

Epilogue of Life4 votes

8% of current HP on passive, 10% of max HP on active. Lets say Zed get off 4 autos during your ult's 3 second, because target tank, who has 4k HP, is retarded and lets you deal dmg however you please. So, 8% of 4k, 320. 8% of 3680, 294. 8% of the health left, 271. 8% of that, 249. So in total, it would take off 1134 of your health. Then, 15% of 4000, 600. 1734 Dmg +, lets say, 300dmg on each auto. so, 2934dmg with the autos, + the 10% from his passive, another 400. 3334 dmg in all with 4 autos, and then death mark pops for (50% of 3334)+300. However, even with a last whisper+youmuu's, a typical 200+ armor tank would still have 120ish armor left, with translates into roughtly 65%+ dmg mitigation...you'd lose around 3446 HP at most...Even with his spells, its only barely enough to 100-0 you, as you literally LET him hammer away at you without using any damage mitigation spells...which is to say, AFK. Then comes the fact that the 200 armor and 4k health is actually a bit less than what dedicated tanks usually have, and that a tanky build is actually less expensive, by quite a lot of gold, than a full offense build. Also worth noting is the fact that I did not take Ninja Tabi into consideration...and I didn't count defensive masteries either. Besides, just buy a QSS and remove around 1.3K worth of damage...I'm asian, so I did the math for you lol hope you read.

LankPants10 votes

I think you're forgetting that Zed's ult amplifies ALL damage that BoRK deals if he ults a full HP tank with rank 3 ult and autos twice with 0 ad and 0 armour (impossible but it just makes numbers easier) he deals 15.4% of the tanks HP with the autos, but then his ult procs dealing an additional 7.7% of their HP, so overall he dealt 23.1%.

This isn't entirely fair as a tank has armour to help them live, but Zed also has AD and spells to hit them with, as well as ignite and if they drop bellow 50% also his passive to deal even more percent HP.

Epilogue of Life2 votes

I fucked up my math there bro, I changed it...

LankPants10 votes

I read but there are still some facts you didn't consider, 4k+200 armour is a late game tank build by then Zed has more than 300 AD and probs a cleaver on top of LW Youmus (if he plans on bursting tank) if not he might have IE, which just throws the maths out of the window. Also often a tank isn't at full HP due to the jungle or duels.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

so you are comparing a nearly full build tank to a two item zed?

yacota1 votes

better question is why are we ignoreing the fact that he said zed was fed. OF COURSE HES GOING TO NUKE A TANK hes a fed assasin you dumbfuck. maybe next time be more careful and dont feed the assasin?

Ratbert2 votes

While he just farms with his incredible safety? Yeah that'll work. Saying don't feed is as valid as "gitgud".

Epilogue of Life1 votes

Farming with incredible safety does not get him fed. In order to 100-0 champions who runs tanky builds like I calculated, Zed needs 3 rank ult, because the bonus dmg scales. A early-mid game Zed would need at least one complete item worth of advantage...

LankPants3 votes

Zed shouldn't be able to blow up tanks period. He's an assassin, tanks are ment to have an innate advantage over assassins as they are virtually immune to being blown up, but zed doesn't give a fuck, and defiantly needs that 3k worth of overkill damage Vs an average ADC.

Shro0mie1 votes

{quoted}

8% of current HP on passive, 10% of max HP on active. Lets say Zed get off 4 autos during your ult's 3 second, because target tank, who has 4k HP, is retarded and lets you deal dmg however you please. So, 8% of 4k, 320. 8% of 3680, 294. 8% of the health left, 271. 8% of that, 249. So in total, it would take off 1134 of your health. Then, 15% of 4000, 600. 1734 Dmg +, lets say, 300dmg on each auto. so, 2934dmg with the autos, + the 10% from his passive, another 400. 3334 dmg in all with 4 autos, and then death mark pops for (50% of 3334)+300. However, even with a last whisper+youmuu's, a typical 200+ armor tank would still have 120ish armor left, with translates into roughtly 65%+ dmg mitigation...you'd lose around 3446 HP at most...Even with his spells, its only barely enough to 100-0 you, as you literally LET him hammer away at you without using any damage mitigation spells...which is to say, AFK. Then comes the fact that the 200 armor and 4k health is actually a bit less than what dedicated tanks usually have, and that a tanky build is actually less expensive, by quite a lot of gold, than a full offense build. Also worth noting is the fact that I did not take Ninja Tabi into consideration...and I didn't count defensive masteries either. Besides, just buy a QSS and remove around 1.3K worth of damage...I'm asian, so I did the math for you lol hope you read.

+1, if your a tank and let him 100-0 u, your a noob, if your with your team and he death marks you he's probably a noob. If your team lets him 100-0 u in teamfight and u lose teamfight, your team is noob. Assassins are barely even viable in the current meta.

LankPants2 votes

Assassins are barely even viable in the current meta.

You're joking aren't you. You have to be trolling me, some of the most popular picks in the game at the moment are assassins. Out of the top ten bans from all regions five are assassins. (zed-fizz-akali-panth-kat) Assassins have absurd burst with stupid levels of safety and above average DPS, something about them is going to have to give eventually as at the moment they are the highest damage champs in the game, as well as some of the safest.

AMYS GRAVE4 votes

Why are tanks forced to build to the situation while other roles don't?

examples: i'm an adc, buying IE now... i'm a support, buying sightstone now...

why are other roles so binary in their first/second buys? because they have that god tier item that the must have for their role or else. while i don't think tanks should have a God-tier item, i don't think other roles should have that either. they promote binary builds and are not healthy for the game.

overall tanks do need help though. with all the % health damage and armor / magic pen that is readily available to other roles tanks have been left high and dry.

adc > tanks tanks > assassins the problem is that assassins have become better than tanks assassins > adc

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

{quoted} Why are tanks forced to build to the situation while other roles don't?

Because, unlike offensive champions, Tanks have to consider whether their lane opponents are more physical or magic damage, whether the enemy team is a balanced mix or focused on one or the other, and how their kit scales with different defense items.

Defense is an early game shtick. You have to analyze the other team's composition and make quick build decisions to handle incoming damage.

AMYS GRAVE2 votes

i was asking the question rhetorically, sorry if that wasn't clear... :)

LankPants2 votes

Yep, the main problem with tanks at the moment is that they struggle to hold down classes that they are meant to hard counter. There's no reason why Fizz and Zed should be able to outduel tanks other than the pure CC tanks like Naut. After their burst Assassins damage should drop off hard, but it doesn't their DPS can match or outdo tanks like Amumu and Zac. I definitely liked the Sej changes though, she's now a tank who can actually hold her own against other champs.

Salidfingers3 votes

item 3075

LankPants9 votes

item 3035

Salidfingers3 votes

item 3075 item 3083

LankPants9 votes

item 3035 item 3153 or even just a few spells from their mage.

Cale0173 votes

I can't help but feel that you aren't quite aware of what the function of a tank is, or how a tank wins in terms of fighting an enemy.

Playing a tank isn't about multiplying to keep up with offensive counterparts. Winning with a tank is when you can increase your defense so long to where in the time it takes someone to just stand and kill you, you actually overtake them in damage in a drag out fight.

Tanks are like muscle cars. Sure they have a slow start. And yeah they might not be able to go all that fast anyways. But once you get one going it's going to keep rolling a lot longer than the ricer that it started next to.

LankPants4 votes

I'm aware of what a tank is, Sejuani is my most played champ (hence the icon). I've learnt to work around crippling weaknesses that other classes lack, but that doesn't make the weaknesses any less infuriating. I die early game in teamfights because I'm actually less tanky than the enemy bruiser jungle, why am less tanky than a Lee who rushed a damage item, why can't I just have an item that lets me be relevant early game. I'm not asking to be stronger than Lee early, or to be able to duel him, just to actually be tankier than him since he rushes a damage item into a sightstone.

Cale0172 votes

You aren't less tanky than the enemy bruiser jungle, unless they're playing someone with natural tank stats or an ability that increases their damage mitigation for a short time. They're just dealing more damage so they appear to take less since they can kill someone faster. Lee Sin is a perfect example, as he can give himself a small shield and then a boost to lifesteal and spellvamp, synergizing with his high damage abilities healing him from the spellvamp and his two rapid autos afterwards healing him from the lifesteal. He isn't actually tankier, he just appears to be because he's healing from the damage he's taking.

An ADC with 50% lifesteal isn't tanky, but they do the same thing by healing faster than someone can damage them.

You ARE tankier than they are, but if you're not paying attention to the other factors going into it you look more squishy by comparison. In all honesty they're taking more damage, they just do a better job of reducing it for a very short time while keeping people from doing as much to them as they would to you by killing them much faster than you can. If you could kill someone as fast as a Lee Sin would you'd look a hell of a lot tankier because you'd have more health by the time you finished someone off than he would once his shield fades and he stops healing from his W.

LankPants5 votes

So you take less damage than them, that means they're doing your own job better than you, while also doing their own job of dealing damage and diving the back lines.

And they don't really fall off, a late game Lee is honestly much better than people give him credit for, he still has extreme damage he just won't one shot you anymore. Then there are bruisers who outscale Lee, I'm fairly sure Nocturn's curve is ahead of most tanks for the entire game, Sej and Mumu outscale him at 5-6 items but other tanks just don't.

Don't misunderstand I don't think Noct is a problem but I just don't see why this class has to get shat on at every corner.

Cale0172 votes

Tanky junglers USED to have a core item with the Spirit of the Ancient Golem giving a 25% boost to bonus health.

Good luck killing that Rammus when he's got 5000 health, or trying to outpace a Volibear in the long haul if you just sit and trade autos.

LankPants2 votes

Yes and no, it wasn't that great of a rush, so your early game sucked just as much as it does now, gave you a god like late game though.

Cale0171 votes

That's the entire point of a tank though. During the early game you last a little bit longer, but not a whole lot. Going into the midgame you start getting harder to kill as your resistances and health are stacking, but you still need help to take someone else down because you haven't really maxed out the skills that are your primary source of damage, since most damage that a tank does comes from the base damage of their abilities.

By the time you hit the end game no one person should be able to kill you on their own unless it's just an insanely fed Vayne, or a Nocturne who's stacked his Devourer's through the roof.

And I dunno about you but that 25% bonus health let me stack more armor and less health while still increasing my overall effective health, considering that after about 250 armor or so you're actually SUPPOSED to start stacking health instead of more armor as the ratio of armor to effective health starts giving diminishing returns. That bonus 25% increased your health while you were buying armor already, so it pushed off the point where you get diminishing returns in terms of effective health quite a bit.

LankPants9 votes

The problem with this theory is that certain bruisers ie. Nocturne or J4 can be stronger than you ALL game even at 6 items you only catch up to them. Why should I pick a tank when second tier junglers are stronger or as strong as me at my strongest point in the game?

Cale0173 votes

The problem with what you're saying is the champions you're trying to compare. Don't try and measure a bruiser against a tank, because that's a losing battle.

See, this is how it works:

Tanks > carries

carries > bruisers

bruisers > tanks

and then assassins are just sort of in there swirling around depending on how they've built, how your team has built, and how good they are at what they do

Why do tanks beat carries? Carries rely on being able to keep up a certain level of constant damage, and they try to heal faster than you can deal damage to them. But they still have to be able to kill you before you deal significant damage to them. If a carry and a tank are in a 1v1, and both are equally itemized, the tank actually comes out on top. Why? Because the tank is directly mitigating the damage done by the carry, which is in turn mitigating how much they're healing, while the tank is dealing a constant, if low, source of damage that the carry has very little means of mitigating in return. Tanks have means of keeping someone in range, negating their ability to kite effectively, whether it be slows, hooks, knockups, or stuns. Some have silences to prevent the carries from casting damaging or movement abilities. By directly hindering the basic functions of the carry, and equally built tank makes them ineffective overall.

But why do carries then beat bruisers when bruisers are just tanky damage dealers? Bruisers rely on being able to get in close, but they very rarely have ways of keeping close. They have to deal sustained damage, or use guerilla tactics to hit someone, back off, come back in when their skills are up and try to keep going. They're at a midpoint where their defenses are built up just enough to allow them to deal damage for longer than a carry, but their offenses are built to where they can deal more damage than a tank. However they don't do either of these as effectively as the other two, so if equally built a bruiser will usually lack the capacity to effectively hinder a carry (most bruisers lack CC outside of their ults like snows or stuns that keep someone close for a long period of time). As a result, carries have a much easier time of kiting a bruiser than they do a tank, and as the bruiser hits the danger zone where it becomes a gamble to continue fighting they must quickly decide between an all in attempt or simply taking the lost trade and backing away. Their defenses are only meant to hold up for a short time, but a carry can deal a much higher amount of damage if given more than a few moments to do so.

So if bruisers are basically ineffective tanks, why is it that they beat tanks? Because while tanks deal a constant, progressive damage to a carry, the damage that they're doing to a bruiser is being mitigated by the bruiser's defenses, while the bruiser usually has some form of armor penetration or reduction that's made specifically to hurt someone who's big and buff. I.E. their abilities leave you with a bruise. They aren't enough to kill you outright, but when you get hit by it you feel it, even if you're a tank. Consider bruisers as the armor piercing rounds to you being the Howitzer. Yes, you can take a hit or two from them and keep going. But take too many and you're going to start having issues. The bruiser can reduce enough damage from the tank's abilities to stay in combat long enough to put dents in your armor and get through in the end.

The reason that bruisers seem to be stronger than tanks, and sometimes even than carries, is because bruisers have strong early and midgames compared to either tanks or carries. Because they can survive so well they usually have better laning phases, and with only one or two kills they can usually get a very powerful snowball going as they can do more early on with the mid-tier items like a Brutalizer, a Tiamat, or a Warden's Mail. They can get fed very early in a game. But as they go into the late game the failings of a bruiser become apparent as, much like a Lee Sin, you realize that they aren't dealing as much damage as they seemed to be in the beginning, and they aren't reducing as much as they were when they were dealing that slightly higher damage. They

And then the 21/2/19 Diana you forgot about jumps at you from a bush with a Void Scepter and shoves her kama somewhere very uncomfortable.

Or she fails to kill you and has to run away because she didn't hit you with her Q. Such is life for the assassin role.

LankPants8 votes

Carries melt tanks easy though.

Cale0174 votes

If they're insanely fed. But put a Volibear or a Rammus up against an evenly matched Lucian and the tank is going to win.

Why?

The carry isn't so far ahead that they're doing more damage than the tank can mitigate, so the tank can outlast the carry in terms of damage. If carries could melt anyone without an issue they wouldn't need tanks to buy them precious seconds to survive in fights, because a carry needs those precious seconds of not taking damage to get some sustain going while putting out damage of their own.

For some reference, try running Vayne/Leona against Vayne/Leona in the bottom lane. Barring someone making a massive misplay, the lane isn't going to be won by either side. And why?

Because the strategies being implemented are exactly the same on either side. The Vaynes can't kill each other because the Leona because they can't get enough time to lay down constant damage without opening themselves up to retaliation.

In evenly matched scenarios, you find out that the ADC actually has to put a LOT more effort into trying to score a kill. Without help from a minion wave also weakening a tank, and even then it might not be enough, the ADC is usually pushed onto the defensive when a tank bears down on them in a 1v1 scenario. They have to run back to the safety of their turret, because they aren't dealing enough damage to heal enough damage to outpace what the tank is doing to them if they allow the fight to go on for an extended period of time.

Carries only melt people when they aren't being directly assaulted themselves. If a tank runs at a carry who has a tank of their own nearby, the tanks clash while the carry can safely assault from a distance. That, or the carry is fed and has an item advantage and a level advantage.

Why do you think high level players still try to avoid 1v1 situations when playing carries? Even in moments that they find themselves in one, whether from fear of an enemy they don't have vision of trying to come around behind them (here again the tank beats the carry in essence by surviving long enough to allow someone else to come in and finish the carry off since tanks don't strictly need kills anyways), or simply being afraid that the tank will eventually whittle them down low enough to kill them, the carry will almost always start backing up to safety.

Imagine a full tank Shyvana fighting against any ADC, the two of them just standing there trading blows without moving. Shyvana, even as a tank, has high enough base damages and enough on hit effects that even though the individual ticks of damage and her auto attacks aren't doing a whole lot piece by piece, as the fight goes on longer the carry is still losing more and more health in an even match. Shyvana isn't dealing a lot of damage at once, but over time she can deal enough damage to kill the carry before the carry can deal enough to cut through their armor and health.

LankPants2 votes

Why are you assuming 1v1's.

Cale0171 votes

Because that's how you determine where balance is being struck between roles. Teamfights change the dynamic of how things are happening and can make someone seem stronger or weaker than they actually are based on who's focusing who and where everyone is positioned.

LankPants6 votes

But what about supports? by your logic every support is underpowered and needs massive buffs to get up to par, even janna and thresh.

Cale0171 votes

Supports aren't a class that's meant to be fighting for the sake of their own damage capacity. Their job is to set up kills for their teammates. Once again, people are confusing the roles here. The way a top lane champion builds as a tank is very different from the way a support builds as a tank, as supports tend to focus more on items with effects that can directly help allies, but aren't quite as tanky as what a straight out tank would build.

Supports are there to provide engage, disengage, and buff options. Not contributions to the mass damage done in a fight, but contributions to the outcome by allowing teammates to unload their full damage by setting them up in favorable positions.

AMYS GRAVE3 votes

tanks aren't a class that's meant to be fighting for the sake of their own damage capacity either. their job it to get in the face of the enemy so their teammates don't take as much abuse. tanks are there to provide engage, disengage, and buff options as well, although perhaps not to the degree that supports do.

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