@Riot The support role

Hige··5 votes·1,081 views

I think it's time for you guys to define what a support is supposed to do, with this whole Singed support issue floating around the cracks on the support role has started to show, entitled ADC mains complain that the support should be in their lane but in reality the support was never meant to be stapled in bot, the support position is in fact variable, supporting top, mid or jungle is a viable strat since the gold distribution and the lane pressure DOES benefits your team as a whole.

If for example in top you face a Nasus who is farming like crazy and you have a passive pick like Jax, "hiring" the support to harass Nasus while you farm is incredibly effective. The ADC will cry of course but good ADCs CAN lane alone and while getting dove is a problem, this talks more about turrets general power than anything else.

The support position is an strategy oriented role, the guy doing the singed support stuff is particularly efficient at figuring out gold advantages that doesn't circle around the ADC and when he wins it's because the other lanes find incredible success from double ganks and whatnot. The ADC not being able to farm is the smallest concern since the enemy ADC will be targeted by a crazy fed diver from another lane either way.

Supports aren't the ADC's slave, this is coming from an ADC main, admittedly I'm only gold 5 but when my support isn't around in my lane I have quite the fun time...

hashtag FreeTheSupports ?

22 Comments

MyNameAintNick3 votes

One time i queued up with two friends. I was playing adc cait, one friend playing nami, and the other nasus.

We stomped bot lane pretty early, and I was cait so I could safely 1v2 and farm up for later on in the game.

My support went top and stayed there with Nasus for about 20 mins, they kept sending 3-4 people to deal with the duo toplane and they couldn't do anything about it.

The game ended with me getting a bunch of fam/kills and nasus having close to 1k stacks.

They dominated top and I was free to kill the underfed adc when the support left and push to their base.

Was a pretty good strategy, I could see duo top being a thing. (If you win bot early, and there's no danger of being dived)

PureSilvrr3 votes

#Freethesupports

The Deckowner3 votes

Supports to me right now feels like slaves to the team, they have no right to own properties and they need to give free labour to the ADC overlords.

#FreetheSupports

Leo10242 votes

i wish we had more adc mains like you, i'll roam mid to gank for the 0/3 kennen and the adc won't play safe and proceeds to blame me for his death, i even warn him beforehand

Hige1 votes

Thanks! I think that ADC mentality is quite problematic for the game but it's been enforced for so long that people has taken it as a norm :S sadly.

Desolas Arterius2 votes

I think this is a tough issue since the current meta evolved into the 1/1/2 with 1 jungler. This was found to be the most "effective" and "optimal" strategy to win, as well as the most basic and easily applied to all elos.

Obviously, the higher level of play you get to the meta will change (such as lane swaps going to 2/1/1), but for now this is the most effective strategy discovered.

Does it mean it's always going to be like this? Probably not. But it is what works the best, so that is what people try to do to help win. I think that's why Riot won't clearly define the support role. They don't want to limit creativity and experimenting by saying "A support is SUPPOSED to assist the ADC". They want to keep the positions vague and broad so players can create new metas and strats. I mean, Graves is pretty much a jungler now, when before he used to strictly be ADC. Doesn't mean he can't play in both, but he tends to work better in jungle than in botlane.

Perhaps down the road we'll see the meta drastically change again? Maybe duo jungle will be a thing, or 24/7 roaming support will be a thing! Maybe duo top will come back? Who knows! But the point is people try to stick to what they know works. Regardless of their skill level, if that's what they're comfortable with and all they know, then that's what they're going to play. This applies to champions, laning, and strategy.

The whole issue is mostly just about players not being considerate, as well as open minded towards other opinions. This applies to the whole Singed Smite/Support fiasco, as well as the players who reported him. We can't have a new meta if we don't accept new strategies or test them, but we can't force our experimenting onto other strangers who may not be comfortable (or even skilled enough) to try it.

If we could all just be good sportsmen then this wouldn't have been an issue .-. but alas, human nature is fickle.

Hige1 votes

Perhaps down the road we'll see the meta drastically change again?

This won't happen if reporting for breaking the meta becomes a thing... what I wanted to say in my main post wasn't that riot had to define supports as enchanters but quite the opposite, define the role as in the general objectives of it, to me they are pretty clear but that's not the case for everyone and that's why I believe Riot should come out and say: hey, supports aren't slaves, they are an aiding force for the whole team, not just the ADC.

Desolas Arterius3 votes

But that's the thing: reporting for breaking the meta isn't legitimate. I can play Malphite Mid or Teemo Support if I want to. Granted, I might not do too well, but I can't be reported for playing an off-meta champion. Riot doesn't punish for off-meta picks. They never have.

What happened was an off-meta strategy, not champion pick. That is very different since that forces the team to play much differently than they're used to. And from what I've seen, trying to change the strategy in a few seconds with 4 other strangers is like trying to herd cats through a river full of cucumbers.

If you're team is okay with it, then go right ahead! Not everyone is close minded, and some would be okay with duo jungle, duo top, etc. But not everyone is okay with it either nor knows how to play around it. Hence why it can be an issue when you force an off-meta strategy onto your team that clearly said they did not want to do so.

It's more so about being respectful and considerate towards others in your match. The meta can still change, but that is up to the individuals that play the game, not Riot. If people don't want to be open minded, then we shouldn't force them. But who knows, maybe if enough people try it out that are open minded, and others see the success rate of it, they might change their mind. Trends happen don't they? We see it all the time ;)

Hige2 votes

Yes I agree! forcing other people to play differently is a pretty bad experience both for the one forcing things out and for the rest as well.

Most of the time though, other lanes couldn't care less and here's where the coin flips, the one with the problem becomes the ADC alone, hell, I'm pretty sure any player would love to receive help from time to time!

So given the case that 4 out of 5 people on a game agree that the support should help all lanes, what do you do? do you stay in bot to avoid a potential report from the adc? mind you, Riot reviews all cases and they have never banned anyone because of breaking the meta but the guy playing singed did get a warning, with a positive winrate and all, I have no doubt that pretty much every ADC reported him enough to warrant that.

Popular opinion has a weight on reporting but given that a lot of ADCs hates him and that the rest of the team doesn't really care, you end up with a crazy negative score for something that's wrongfully judged, so in order to allow creativity to thrive in a safe environment, changing the views of the ones reporting should be imperative and that's what statements from riot are for.

There was a time during season 1 that the figure of a jungler didn't exist, Riot saw that there was a potential role in there from watching people play and they decided to enforce the role not just by balancing the jungle but also chiming in on their forums and saying: hey guys, chill, 3 lanes for 5 guys is a problem, the jungle seems fairly interesting new grounds so keep an open mind.

Desolas Arterius1 votes

These are very great points you brought up! I will try to answer them to the best of my ability :)

Most of the time though, other lanes couldn't care less and here's where the coin flips, the one with the problem becomes the ADC alone, hell, I'm pretty sure any player would love to receive help from time to time!

I think what you mean is the ADC in this specific case is the one mostly affected by the decision. In that case, wouldn't their opinion be the most important? Sure, the other lanes may want help, I mean who wouldn't love extra ganks or extra help to dominate lanes? But is it fair to push aside the ADC's feelings in this situation when they're the ones greatly affected by this decision? Just because 3 of the 4 teammates agree to your strategy doesn't mean it should still be okay. I feel like if the ADC was okay with it, but top wasn't, then maybe that might be okay to go through with since you don't have to bother toplane to still pull off your strategy. But if your strategy directly involves someone else, I think it would be best to make sure they're okay with it first before doing so.

Popular opinion has a weight on reporting but given that a lot of ADCs hates him and that the rest of the team doesn't really care, you end up with a crazy negative score for something that's wrongfully judged

Half right on this. Popular opinion matters somewhat (mostly on behavior issues), but on grey area cases like this they're usually reviewed by a Support Staff. I'm sure more than just the ADC reported him. This strat also affected the other lanes and jungler, so perhaps they asked him not to and when he ignored it they reported him? We don't know. But you don't really get a "negative score" when people consistently report you. Basically, depending on what you're reported on the system will create a file on you for that particular category. If this player shows repeated behavior and receives reports due to it, then the account becomes flagged for review by a Rioter. Hence why he didn't get instantly punished, and why he received a warning. Granted, the Support staff didn't handle it correctly from what I read, but either way it wasn't instantly punished, and since this is such a very rare case the report system doesn't really take that into consideration.

But do rest assured that no matter how many times people report you, unless you aren't actually violating any the of terms and not disrupting the game then you'll be fine. Even if your account is flagged for review (like say you only play Teemo Supp and every ADC reports you), it's still reviewed by the Support Staff and decides whether this is actually a problem or not. If there is no issue, the case is thrown out and nothing happens to your account. I hope that makes sense.

There was a time during season 1 that the figure of a jungler didn't exist, Riot saw that there was a potential role in there from watching people play

This is very true actually! For awhile jungle used to never exist, so I'm glad you did bring that up :) However, Riot more so adapted to the trend forming at the time when they realized the great potential the jungle had to the game dynamic. Similar to the support items and jungle items, which also didn't exist. But Riot saw how well items catered to specific roles do, so they improved on it and expanded it accepting it as part of the meta. But only because it become popular and accepted throughout the community. This is why Riot doesn't define what roles are and where every champion should be played because they really enjoy the community experimenting and testing the limits of the game.

I hope that all made sense :) More than happen to explain anything if it didn't. I'm very happy with the points you brought up though! Definitely worth discussing so I'm glad we are

Hige1 votes

I think what you mean is the ADC in this specific case is the one mostly affected by the decision. In that case, wouldn't their opinion be the most important?

well, this is a common point in the discussion, I did bring it up on another line of answers in this thread as well; the ADCs opinion on the matter is based on what's established as the meta and of course a 1v2 will not be particularly easy to go through on a any lane. ADCs believe that they are the most in need of a support because there's an opposing support right in front of them but given the case that both supports are removed from bot lane, that concern is no longer existent and more importantly, given that a support shows up on another lane then the enemy on that lane will face the same awful situation of a 2v1.

Now there's always the concern of ADCs scaling better with items than with levels hence why supports found a place in bot lane (balance wise both ADCs and supports has been tweaked in order so that their combined power isn't too crazy, that's why when you throw Brand into the equation damage goes through the roof because he wasn't thought as a support initially) but given the situation where an ADC gets to level and farm efficiently their power will be much much greater than what it currently is. Supports on the other hand need both experience and "farm" in the shape of their gold item passive so they NEED to be somewhere either way, bot lane is the default answer but it's not the only one.

What determines where a support must go is... somewhat fuzzy to me, I believe it's where the enemy support shows up but one of them needs to choose and before that happens we find the meta wall. It is true though that ADCs are the champions with the lowest stats and surviving a gank alone is easier as a juggernaut than as an adc... or is it? melees tend to win the stat race, but ADCs tend to have more disengaging tools PLUS the best defensive stat in the game, range.

Definitely worth discussing so I'm glad we are

I wholeheartedly agree! it's awesome to have a sane discussion around here and you also have allowed me to see things that I didn't when I started the thread :P so thank you!

Desolas Arterius1 votes

I do agree with your first point. A roaming support is always great, and I know in higher elos supports do swap lanes sometimes if top is struggling or mid. So that is a totally viable strategy. But they aren't gone for that long and usually it's after the ADC is ahead or in a safe place to 1v2 until the enemy changes. But that is a good point about the scaling. Hence why early game is so crucial for botlane which can snowball out of control if one side gets ahead.

As for what determines where a support goes. I think its up to what is needed. Supports should still try to roam, but only when they've notified the adc they're roaming and when it's okay to leave. As for starting role, as you said, the ADC is usually the weakest compared to the others, so theoretically it would be best to keep them there.

But I would like to see different strats... As long as everyone in the group is okay with it ;)

I wholeheartedly agree! it's awesome to have a sane discussion around here and you also have allowed me to see things that I didn't when I started the thread :P so thank you!

I very much agree! It is very cool to see other's opinions when it comes to off-meta strategies. And I really do hope to see others be more open minded about it :D

Lord Desert1 votes

What is optimal/"right" is defined by the meta, but this can change! You can pick ANYTHING, but if your playstyle affects your team NEGATIVLY, you NEED to get the permission from those who get negativly affected! (If you pick top and want to duo jungle, you need your junglers permission to not get banned/punished)

So if you want to supp the top laner, ask your adc if that is ok. If the meta Changes and now the toplaner has a sup and the adc not, then you need to ask your Toplaner if hes ok with you supporting the adc. If the meat is 2 junglers and your adc asks you to be his supp, then YOU have the choice to supp him or not! Any questions left? Just ask!

Hige1 votes

Well, I would ask you about what is considered a negative impact because when the issue is raised the only one complaining is the ADC...

is staying slightly behind in levels and farm a negative impact when you are effectively boosting everyone else's experience on your team? I don't think so.

Why does the support needs to ask the ADC for permission to do something that will in fact benefit the team as a whole? It's as if soraka had to ask permission to ult, sometimes she does it to heal her top laner while being in bot but she'll then enter cooldown, will the ADC be affected negatively because of this? does the ADC has the right to flame Soraka for not saving ALL her heals for him?

I don't think so...

Lord Desert2 votes

Oh i would say that Stealing camps and cs from jungle/adc + leaving the adcs alone, so he gets even less farm/exp, and him beeing very likely to be killed and thus falling even further behind (and a behind adc is useless), and having him 1v2 for almost the entier laningphase makes the adcs life crap. I would classify that as "negativly impacts your teammates playstyle/experience". Dont you think so?

You "boost", ah wait, you TRY to "boost" everyones experience by 100% sacreficing the adcs experience. Ok, this is more of a moral problem, but to give you an simple question:

Why dont you sacrifice just YOUR Experience to boost your teams experience?

Do you get what i want to say? This is a teamgame and you are NOT allowed to make anybodyelses experience INTENTIONALLY worse. Only if the AGREE that that would take it to help the team, THEN its fine!

Did i made it clear enough, or are any concerns/questions left open?

Hige1 votes

This is a teamgame and you are NOT allowed to make anybodyelses experience INTENTIONALLY worse.

but you DO, all the time actually!! when top or mid lane is getting pounded to oblivion or when your jungle is getting raided constantly, supports sit in bot lane because they don't want to make the ADC's experience worse???? what about helping the rest of the lanes have a better time? will the ADC magically carry against all the other fed lanes??

mind you, the ADC experience has become what it is today because of the huge ball and chain that supports have been tasked with, I want to remind you that in a 1v1, ADCs have the exact same opportunities to farm and receive experience and their race for big numbers is on equal grounds, this exact scenario that happens in mid and top lane, players scale linearly according to their individual skills but if both supports were chained to mid lane for example, mages scaling situation would be less than it currently is of course, but since both have a support by their side, laning would be far easier with heals and back up cc.

The ADC experience is NOT affected by not having an slave support, if anything it's affected by having an enemy support in your lane but the same applies to a jungle gank, 3v2 can turn the table on your bot lane but what are YOUR jungler's options if that happens? well, he can assist bot lane to turn it into a 3v3 OR he could gank other lanes.

I hope I made my point clear as well but in case I missed something I'll leave a quote from Oliver Wendell Holmes:

"Your freedom to act ends where my nose begins"

Lord Desert1 votes

You dont TRY to make their experience intentionally worse when you do your job! Stealing cs, leaving them alone, intentional feeding etc. THAT makes their experience worse. And you CAN roam! You can leave your adc at lane for some time! But your main goal is to grant your adc a somewhat safe early! But hat does NOT exclude you helping others! It is just the MAIN purpose of a sup, in this meta, to be with your adc in the early game.

But if you only counterjungle, take camps and cs, not even put vision up, leave them alone at lane 24/7 VS 2 Guys!, and not take exhaust to protect your team later, then you did not play as sup! Do we agree atleast on that one?

Im also a Support, i play morgana and roam alot, yet not a single adc complained to me to leave him to long alone/get him behind cause of my roams! So you can play support and roam without worsening your adcs experience! _ " You are free to choose, but not free of its consequences"_

Hige1 votes

Do we agree atleast on that one?

Yes we do! and I'm glad that we cleared a couple things, of course stealing cs and intentional feeding ARE negative actions for the game, leaving the adc alone early is probably very neutral to the whole conundrum because again, if both support left their adc alone during that time then there would be no real danger aside from ganks.

So yeah, 1v2 will always be a problem and I do see your point!

Lord Desert2 votes

If both sups left, so the adcs 1v1, roaming would be fine, but in about 99% not both sups will roam(espcially at early), and 1 adc vs 1 adc and his sup ends up with the solo adc getting less farm, and very likely dying thus lossing exp and more farm putting the other team ahead, which then lowers your chances of winning. So you should not leave your adc alone for too long. But leaving him for sometime to help others is fine!

if you want to totaly change the sup role to a "team sup" from the start of the game, you need to change the meta! If you want to do it without the meta then you should ask the adc if it is ok, that you mostly roam/help others. That would be fair, cause 1v2 is not good for the solo guy!

A Doorknob1 votes

The game has evolved. So right now yes, he does "belong" in bot lane with adc until Riot introduces a new system or until somebody finds a different system that functions just as well. There is nothing wrong with what singed support did. He just did it in solo queue and that's where shit hit the fan. If he wants to pull off the "mf support" he can do it, but at least do it with a group who's ok with it. I've done double jungle with friends as well where I was adc. It was infuriating but that the same time they ended up winning the game because they neutralized top-mid and jungle and then they would eventually come down for me. It's possible to play a game without support being beside adc, but it should be done in a group and not as solo queue.

TheSupportsFault1 votes

I always thought it'd be kinda fun if the support followed the Jungler, kinda like in Vainglory

Hige1 votes

I haven't played that game but I do wonder what's the meta on other mobas that happen to follow League's model of 3 lane and a jungle! care to expand a bit on that?

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