Skarner see's play for a week NERFED

instalokpro·Jan 4, 2015·75 votes·4,414 views

but meanwhile lee sin and j4 every game in every bracket and elo

i swear riot

98 Comments

ImHerVoiceJan 4, 201524 votes

his rework was a nerf. to his DPS by a large margine and his 5v5 sustaining with shield. Once they removed the auto attack reduction on everything besides Q that was the end of skarner as a duelist and a 5v5 champion. At best he's a anti asssassin diver with his ult. At worst he's only good at skirmishing.

Thank riot for another gutted champion they call a "rework"

SNSD TiffanyxJan 5, 20152 votes

i feel like skarner's problem is still his mana

like early game even if you get an early gantlet, you will still run into mana problem b/c you have such low wave clear, so literally the only thing enemy top laner had to do was to push wave to your tower and ward river/tri and watch as you struggle to cs while have no mana. you literally need a chalice or athenes to keep up with skarner's mana expenditures.

And by the time your mid/late game finally rolls around, league of mobility just kites you around all day.

ImHerVoiceJan 4, 201512 votes

leave j4 alone. He's actually balanced stat wise and cooldown wise.

HibekiJan 4, 20156 votes

I think his kit is pretty balanced but the champions he used to pick on got nerfed and the items he likes to use got buffed so he looks more broken in comparison.

Personally my only nerf for J4 is to fix the hitbox on the QE combo. I should have to be between the standard and him to get knocked up, not past the standard.

But the hitbox should be VERY generous if I'm between him and the standard. The armor reduction on Q is also pretty unnecessary.

theragingnerdJan 5, 20152 votes

{quoted}

leave j4 alone. He's actually balanced stat wise and cooldown wise.

he's annoying but balanced

BastionKrossJan 4, 20158 votes

I thought from the rough treatment he got with his rework, everyone understood that Riot does not like Skarner. Poor scorpion, the only thing about him that's worth a damn anymore is on a 90 second CD.

CerbearusJan 4, 20156 votes

Skarner doesn't make #LCSBigPlays

killd0zerJan 4, 20156 votes

In all fairness, I'd rather have a champ like Lee, who at least has a high skill floor and high skill cap be strong than Skarner who's honestly pretty easy and straight forward to play.

DrCyanideJan 4, 201514 votes

My wife (Bronze 1) and I (Silver 4) have both gotten Lee Sin in ARAM before. Following the recommended build, we proceeded to blindly button mash after Q-Q and get multiple kills. Neither of us has played Lee Sin outside of those ARAM games.

Please, go on about this high skill floor. I'm dying to hear the explanation for our personal experiences.

killd0zerJan 4, 20155 votes

Are you serious? ARAM isn't a balanced mode, nor is anything within indicative of the real game.

Lee Sin compared to like WW or Udyr is harder.

DrCyanideJan 4, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Are you serious? ARAM isn't a balanced mode, nor is anything within indicative of the real game.

Silly me, thinking 5v5's ever happen on Summoners Rift. What was I thinking?

While there are differences, to be sure, I'm not convinced that you can't button mash in a team fight on Summoner's Rift and get similar results.

Lee Sin compared to like WW or Udyr is harder.

Harder to do what, exactly? Clear camps? Gank? Dear me, you have to land a skill shot... But only one, making him relatively easier than the other champions I play. Be specific man.

killd0zerJan 4, 20153 votes

No like I'm not even sure what to say. ARAM has no bearing on about anything. You can't compare ARAM to SR like at all, ESPECIALLY jungling.

Harder to do what, exactly? Clear camps? Gank? Dear me, you have to land a skill shot... But only one, making him relatively easier than the other champions I play. Be specific man.

You're just arguing to argue. I get that u like the "lel free win the blind monk" meme but don't even joke. WW can just auto attack and never die in jungle. Nunu has great sustain without items as well and don't even try to tell me he's a super hard champ to pick up.

Lee is meh unless you manage abilities correctly. WW just ults someone. Lee's gank is over if he misses Q. Skill floor isn't about mastery, it's ability to play a champion without practice.

Lee is by no means a super difficult champ to learn, but who is? League of legends champions are all pretty easy to pick up, but as far as skill floors go, his is one of the higher ones.

DrCyanideJan 4, 20152 votes

Perhaps we have different definitions of skill floor.

Your definition seems to be the point where a player feels proficient with a champion, where they are no longer confused on what abilities do or when to use them. With this definition I agree with you, Lee Sin has a higher skill floor than most.

My definition of skill floor is the point that a player is able to use the champion effectively enough to help a team get to victory. In this definition, the abilities don't need to be used optimally in order to help. A Xerath getting a stun off on a target right next to him is still using his skill correctly, even if it would have been more optimal to fire the stun a longer distance for a longer duration. With this definition, I don't think Lee Sin has a high skill floor.

LeeDarkJan 4, 20152 votes

No. Lee Sin doesn't get kited everywhere he goes like Udyr, and remains useful after he ults, unlike Warwick. Therefore, people who master either of those champions are overcoming greater obstacles by doing so, making them better. Or is it just a fluke that, being a completely inexperienced jungler who only plays that role when forced to, my KDA with Lee Sin is higher than my KDA with Udyr? (I won't count my KDA with Warwick, because I abused Feral Flare when it was first released.)

GunpointJan 5, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Are you serious? ARAM isn't a balanced mode, nor is anything within indicative of the real game.

Lee Sin compared to like WW or Udyr is harder.

It's pretty hard to play champions without dashes these days...

D1rtFarmerJan 6, 20151 votes

no, maybe for greedy people. but lee is a button masher champ who only requires One skill shot to land. not to mention Lee only looks cool/complicated in graphics when ur using his skills but ur just mashing buttons. He looks like ur doing complex things.. but ur not

The EllimiistJan 4, 20152 votes

Tbh there are no difficult champions. The skill ceiling is low overall. Im not sure how people think lee is hard or why it would matter anyways since the difficulty does not and should not dictate balance since for a decent player, lee sin is no harder to play than any other champion.

Tin TarantinoJan 5, 20151 votes

{quoted}

My wife (Bronze 1) and I (Silver 4) have both gotten Lee Sin in ARAM before. Following the recommended build, we proceeded to blindly button mash after Q-Q and get multiple kills. Neither of us has played Lee Sin outside of those ARAM games.

Please, go on about this high skill floor. I'm dying to hear the explanation for our personal experiences.

Did the same on Jayce, not going to claim he's easy to play though, there is a difference between ARAM and normal games and I doubt you were going around pulling off insec kicks the whole time. Being Bronze and silver you are going to be matched with people who don't know how to deal with Lee Sin, he has a strong early game and people in lower elo don't know how to make a comeback after a bad early game, I won a game a while ago playing jungle Jinx vs a Lee Sin, but I'm not going to make any claims about jungle Jinx being the new top pick in the jungle based on that.

MajorPain9Jan 4, 20154 votes

You lost me at "high skill cap"

JunkοJan 4, 20152 votes

You really don't want to play against a Lee main that plays him because he likes him and has mastered him.

MajorPain9Jan 4, 20152 votes

As with any champion....

InsaneSamuraiJan 4, 20153 votes

Except any champion can't dash over a wall, take half the adcs health and kick them out of the turret, then go back over the wall without using flash in 1-2 seconds.

LeeDarkJan 4, 20151 votes

And when that Lee Sin master tries that against a Janna master, he finds himself doing no damage to the ADC because the ADC was instantly shielded, and he misdirects the ult because he got knocked up by Whirlwind as he was safeguarding to the ward he dropped and the ADC moved. Then he dies because he is slowed under the enemy turret.

Wanna keep trying this with other champions? There is very little difference between how difficult it is to learn or master any champion in this game.

InsaneSamuraiJan 4, 20154 votes

I seriously doubt a Janna and an ADC could work together so well that that would happen consistently enough to be considered the outcome. That stuff is all extremely situational. How does the Janna know where Lee is going to put the ward before he drops it? How does Janna's shield block Lee's insane burst in its entirety?

Even if the aim is right, you're talking about Janna hitting a whirlwind every time under a miniscule window of opportunity.

LeeDarkJan 5, 20151 votes

They don't have to work together for what I described. That was ALL Janna. The only thing the ADC does is move slightly, which is going to be EVERY ADC's natural reaction to seeing a Lee Sin coming over the wall... except maybe in Bronze. The shield, whirlwind, and slow are what ruined Lee Sin's day.

And by the same token, you're talking about a Lee Sin hitting Q every time and not getting CC'd under tower. If you are going to compare someone who has mastered a champ to another champ, the other champ has to be played by a master, as well. For example, I don't remember seeing Lee Sin pull that off against Aphromoo playing Alistar last season. Hell, most of them didn't even try to gank under tower against that, because they knew it would only get them killed.

InsaneSamuraiJan 5, 20151 votes

Lee isn't dying under the turret unless the adc does something too. Janna's cc is not that long.

Whoever Ahprhomo is, I don't see how one pro player represents the entire game even remotely effectively. When's the last time you saw random teammates play like pros?

LeeDarkJan 6, 20151 votes

When was the last time you saw random Lee Sin players play like pros?

"Except any champion can't dash over a wall, take half the adcs health and kick them out of the turret, then go back over the wall without using flash in 1-2 seconds."

You aren't going to see most Lee Sin players do that. If you are going to make a claim about Lee Sin that only a master of the champ could pull off, you have to compare it to masters playing other champs.

You are just here to complain about Lee Sin, aren't you? Your lack of knowledge about the game and pro scene seem to indicate you haven't put much thought into this. I really don't think you belong in a discussion about balance.

InsaneSamuraiJan 6, 20151 votes

How is what I said anything close to a "master" play? He qs, walks 2 steps, ults and ward/w back over the wall. You haven't seen it countless times? In addition, didn't you just use some pro player as an example?

LeeDarkJan 7, 20151 votes

Because everybody who is merely average at Lee Sin doesn't bother aiming their ult. They just Q Q E R. THAT is what I have seen countless times, not someone accurately aiming their ult and using it to knock a squishy into their friends, knocking the rest of the team up.

The thing is that I am comparing a good Lee Sin to someone good playing another champ. You are assuming a good Lee Sin at even bronze level. In Bronze and Silver, Lee Sin is more likely to HELP the enemy escape with his ult than he is to actually kick them the right way.

InsaneSamuraiJan 7, 20151 votes

I have definitely seen that move a bunch of times :)

However, I was very surprised at how many bronze players are actually quite good with him.

NarasimhaJan 4, 20152 votes

Say what you want about Lee, there is a noticeable difference between someone just playing him and someone who has actually mastered him.

MajorPain9Jan 4, 20153 votes

That can be said about any champion....

NarasimhaJan 4, 20152 votes

A lot of champions have very close skill floors and skill ceilings. J4, Karthus, Nasus, Yorick, Swain, etc.

LeeDarkJan 4, 20152 votes

Sorry, but no. You show me two random videos from any of those champs and I can tell you the difference between someone playing it well and someone not. If their skill floor and ceiling are close, then there should be little appreciable difference between someone playing them poorly and someone playing them well.

Lee Sin is not harder or easier than any of those. Just because YOU are good at telling the difference between good and bad Lee Sin players but not good and bad players of the other champs doesn't mean those champs are easy. It says more about you than anything else.

NarasimhaJan 4, 20151 votes

Yeah, I guess it says that I see a lot more Lee Sin players than other champs. I don't remember the last time I saw someone other than me play Yorick. But I digress.

If you think Lee is easier to play than Swain, Yorick, or even Nasus, then I'm honestly not sure how to proceed. It sounds like you want to argue for the sake of arguing, and I have no desire to fuel that fetish.

LeeDarkJan 5, 20151 votes

The essence of the game is strategy and reaction times. Champion selection only matters in terms of how they counter each other and what teams need, and champion selection only matters in reaction time because extreme comfort with a champion improves reactions. But ultimately, it doesn't matter WHICH champion it is. Every champion can fit a situation, and you can learn to be very comfortable and master any champion.

You really think a game with four buttons and some mouse movement is hard? It isn't. The PvP element is the only thing that inject difficulty into the game. They game itself is not hard to play; NO champion in the game is hard to play. Other players who have more knowledge and better reaction times are what make the game hard. If you can't recognize that, you really don't belong in any discussion of balance.

EDIT: By the way, if you see so many more Lee Sin players than Yorick... why would you think Lee Sin is harder than Yorick? If low skill players can pick up Lee Sin and be successful more than with Yorick, I'd say he's the easier champ.

GamersEyeJan 4, 20154 votes

Skarner was under the microscope at the time, because he'd just gotten a rework. Rather than sort of touching at his controls for the patch like they dow ith other champions, they had him by the balls and were steering him all over the place.

He's also really basic in terms of gameplay, which makes it hard to leave him buffed. They tried to add some with the Crystal Venom interaction and his ult, which is great for dueling, but awful for the rest of his kit, since he doesn't want to duel, he wants to initiate, which the passive contradicts by wanting him to get in the fight first. I like the rework, because I think it gave Skarner more stuff to do and more potential, but then they took a lot of raw power out of him, basically saying, it's k, you can Blitzcrank pull someone on a 90 second Cooldown.

JunkοJan 4, 20152 votes

I haven't seen a J4 in ages

PentaJumpJan 4, 201521 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rainbowe Dash,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=L3UVZcsj,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-01-04T15:19:38.577+0000)

I haven't seen a J4 in ages

Found the time-traveler.

ImHerVoiceJan 4, 20151 votes

his sustain sucks and he's entirely reliant on kill gold. Thanks to the new jungle the only good utility junglers are sustain ones.

the rest rely entirely on kills to function and then taxing at least half a wave of exp because farming the jungle is hard as someone that isn't some broken high damage assasssin with low CD's or infinite resources

Personally I play fiddle alot now.

Mecha MaIphiteJan 4, 20152 votes

Malphite Jax Sion

Those are three champs I've been playing in the jungle a lot. None of them have any real innate sustain, and they can all follow the default starting jungle path (a camp and two buffs, sometimes another camp).

supes the lostJan 4, 20152 votes

I would just like to mention, Skarner can full clear his jungle the first time through, and he obviously no longer has built in sustain. My jungle path as Skarner is Gromp w/ Smite, Blue Buff, Wolfs, Red Buff w/ Smite, Golems, then Razorbeaks.

ImHerVoiceJan 5, 20153 votes

jax cancels 2 auto attacks from every jungle camp. thats sustain. Sion has a shield. Malphite has a shield and an attack speed slow. Just because they don't gain health back doesn't mean they lack utility to clear.

ANGUSdaGUYJan 5, 20151 votes

lol really now?

Mecha MaIphiteJan 5, 20151 votes

Yes.... I've done it every game I had with them lol.

instalokproJan 4, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rainbowe Dash,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=L3UVZcsj,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-01-04T15:19:38.577+0000)

I haven't seen a J4 in ages

are you serious

JunkοJan 4, 20151 votes

Well i haven't played the game in like 2 days but still, haven't seen him within the last few weeks

MasterSeth2025Jan 4, 20151 votes

Personally I play him, vi, and nocturne a lot, but I can confirm that in the silver 3 range he is a very common pick, if I had to guess probably about 35% of games have him picked or banned

well maybe it is different in EUNE though

The EllimiistJan 4, 20151 votes

Im on NA and also have not seen J4 in weeks.

MasterSeth2025Jan 4, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ellimiist,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=L3UVZcsj,comment-id=00030002000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-04T21:52:06.990+0000)

Im on NA and also have not seen J4 in weeks.

Just checked lolking on this, he is currently the 15th most popular champion in ranked solo at silver and he gets more common as you go up tiers (behind only thresh and graves at diamond) and he leaves the top 15 in bronze.

Also you have seen him twice in the past 3 days (10 matches)