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My wish as a Jungler to Riot for next season...

Velasan··1 votes·425 views

Please, for the sake of Junglers everywhere, remove exp and gold from jungle monsters for anyone who doesn't have smite.

I'm so so tired of my own team counter jungling me trying to pick up exp and gold or that one try hard person trying to carry our entire team going through the whole jg and taking every camp while no one is actually taking objectives or pushing lanes.

It feels bad for the Jungler and encourages bad gameplay and poor teamwork. For example, if you set up a system where you told mid to always go bot lane to get more gold and take their minions that would be a bad set up. Here it's the same thing, but you're just telling the other lanes to go into the jungle and take the gold there. To add to that problem there is no gameplay value in having laners take jungle camps. There are no cool plays to be had by having mid lane take raptors or bot lane take krugs/gromp. It doesn't add anything, but it detracts from the game as a whole.

God forbid you are already being counter jungled by the enemy. If that happens you have no gold whatsoever come mid game. I know this doesn't happen in every game, but when it does it is one of the worst feelings in League of Legends. Essentially your own team cripples your chances of winning.

14 Comments

BeeCuz2 votes

This doesn't quite sort it.

The notion presented as ownership of jungle mobs may be a best practice for a team in a given match; but it is something players do as a strategy.

It's better to have the idea of jungle mob ownership as an explore-able play. If it turns out that the team is worse off for two people in the jungle competing for resources instead of lane farming, then that team hardship and ineffectiveness is the proper cost.

In this way the game may be explored and what is best behavior tested, instead of just watching someone else's plan unfold.

Velasan1 votes

{quoted}

This doesn't quite sort it.

The notion presented as ownership of jungle mobs may be a best practice for a team in a given match; but it is something players do as a strategy.

It's better to have the idea of jungle mob ownership as an explore-able play. If it turns out that the team is worse off for two people in the jungle competing for resources instead of lane farming, then that is the proper cost.

In this way the game may be explored and what is best behavior tested, instead of just watching someone else's plan unfold.

Hmmm, that actually sounds perfectly reasonable and fair. You definitely have a point. Replying to say QFT and giving you an upvote.

WalkingInACircle1 votes

You're at least going to propose people with smite can't farm minions right?

Velasan1 votes

{quoted}

You're at least going to propose people with smite can't farm minions right?

Doesn't that just emphasize my point even more? You wouldn't find it annoying and strange if a Jungler walked right into your lane and started farming all the minions then kept coming back the entire game?

That's basically what happens to Junglers right now. If someone actually did that in your game as a Jungler and was stealing all your farm you would report them for trolling. As far as I know you can't really report your team for taking all your own JG camps. It's just frustrating. :/

WalkingInACircle1 votes
  1. They do that all the time.
  2. You should be ganking anyway.
  3. This would undermine the entire concept of map control.
  4. Stop feeling entitled to shit.
Velasan1 votes

{quoted}

  1. They do that all the time.
  2. You should be ganking anyway.
  3. This would undermine the entire concept of map control.
  4. Stop feeling entitled to shit.

It's not entitement. That's the way the game works. I'm not promoting Junglers take laners farm or vice versa. I'm also not saying that Junglers shouldn't gank to farm.

I'm not really sure what your argument is here. Are you pro laners being able to take Jungle camps? It doesn't actually affect map control. You aren't gaining vision or taking an objective, and if this was changed it doesn't stop people from killing only jungle camps. It would only stop encouraging your own team from removing them.

So, what is your issue with that exactly?

WalkingInACircle1 votes

"The game the way works" hahahahaha oh wow. No. No it's not. You only feel like the jungle camps are "your" camps. You think 'jungler' as a position is a built in feature of the game. The very existence of a jungler on a team is a choice. You can also have two. Hell pro teams supports roam and double jungle often enough to be more like a second jungler than a support. Gold is acquired by various things on the map, controlling access to those resources is map control. And accumulating a gold advantage over your opponents leads to a stat advantage that can win the game. Basic good play involves taking control over the enemies jungle, taking those resources from your opponent, which would be much less effective if only your jungler could actually do it. Understanding map control is essential to playing jungler in the first place.

Anyway, stop farming and go gank/ward.

Velasan1 votes

{quoted}

"The game the way works" hahahahaha oh wow. No. No it's not. You only feel like the jungle camps are "your" camps. You think 'jungler' as a position is a built in feature of the game. The very existence of a jungler on a team is a choice. You can also have two. Hell pro teams supports roam and double jungle often enough to be more like a second jungler than a support. Gold is acquired by various things on the map, controlling access to those resources is map control. And accumulating a gold advantage over your opponents leads to a stat advantage that can win the game. Basic good play involves taking control over the enemies jungle, taking those resources from your opponent, which would be much less effective if only your jungler could actually do it. Understanding map control is essential to playing jungler in the first place.

Anyway, stop farming and go gank/ward.

In my post I said it would be better to not have the exp/gold component, not that you couldn't kill them. So, it doesn't take away an enemies ability to counter jungle. That change would only prevent your team from wanting to take your camps.

More over, it would seem Riot disagrees with you, because there is this little thing called the new champion select. When you pick roles you are picking for the lane. Jungle is a role and one of the options for lanes you can choose from.

If you chose bot lane and ran top and took their farm that is trolling, same as if your team is taking all the gold out of your own jg.

This is a common misconception that the JG is just there. No, it is actually a lane. Same as you have middle, bot, or top.

And for the third time you've brought this up, nowhere have I said to just farm and not gank or anything like it. Nor am I promoting to simply continuous farm for the entire game.

Lastly, having a Jungler isn't just a funny thing the meta thought up and may change tomorrow when the meta shifts. Entire champions are built around being Junglers, and are listed as Junglers for their role by Riot. So, until they decide that the Jungle role should not exist and no champions should be Junglers, your point is ridiculous.

By contrast are you trying to tell me that you feel entitled to take your Junglers camps? That they shouldn't have any gold because you feel like taking it?

If you're talking about counter jungling this doesn't prevent anyone from counter jungling. If you're talking about map control then be aware you gain that through towers, drags, barons and not by taking gromp. They are even taking away the smite buffs so you can't smite the enemy wolves anymore for vision.

If we're talking about gold as I've already pointed out you lose more gold from being out of lane than you gain from taking the camps. So, there's no reason to do that either.

So, yes, please tell me why you are more entitled to the Jungle than the person who actually picked the Jungle role.

WalkingInACircle1 votes

Riot's designations mean nothing. What matters about the game is what you can do inside the game. And if you are running out of camps to farm, you're farming too much period. A real jungler always has more to do. But more to the point, you still don't understand the first point. You fantasize about a 'position' with a 'job'. There is no such thing. A good player understands what they can do and what they can't do, and does whatever is best for their team at any given moment. The meta is built on top of that as a rule of thumb, designed by players who are mostly copying LCS. It's not some integrated game structure. Forcing it into the game would be incredibly unhealthy for play for game design reasons I don't have the crayons to explain to you.

Velasan1 votes

{quoted}

Riot's designations mean nothing. What matters about the game is what you can do inside the game. And if you are running out of camps to farm, you're farming too much period. A real jungler always has more to do. But more to the point, you still don't understand the first point. You fantasize about a 'position' with a 'job'. There is no such thing. A good player understands what they can do and what they can't do, and does whatever is best for their team at any given moment. The meta is built on top of that as a rule of thumb, designed by playing who are mostly copying LCS. It's not some integrated game structure. Forcing it into the game would be incredibly unhealthy for play for game design reasons I don't have the crayons to explain to you.

Yeah except there's this thing called the game info page and literally everything on the client as well plus the creators of the game that reinforce those designations.

This post also was not about running out of camps to farm from normal farming. You keep trying to come up with some new argument to deviate from your original one to try to win this like it's a debate class, but you can't just randomly come up with a new topic and talk about it like you are suddenly providing this great counter argument. It's obvious when you are trying to strawman and no one is falling for it.

There are roles and lanes in this game. Deal with it lol.

Or should we try it your way. There are no lanes, everyone just goes wherever, takes everyone elses farm, and the game was created by the LCS instead of RIot. Am I doing it right?

WalkingInACircle1 votes

No, your angrily strawmanning my point while declaring mine a strawman for your chewbacca defense. You need to understand the game and it starts with understanding what can be done before going about deciding what should be done, and all of that needs to come before trying to change whats possible to do.

Velasan1 votes

{quoted}

No, your angrily strawmanning my point while declaring mine a strawman for your chewbacca defense. You need to understand the game and it starts with understanding what can be done before going about deciding what should be done, and all of that needs to come before trying to change whats possible to do.

I'm not angry, I'm simply replying to your posts. You are creating strawman arguments and you know it. Don't pretend like you have a perfect understanding of the game either. All your doing is using a lot of hyperbole to try to prove a subjective point as though it's fact.

So, lets just agree to disagree, because neither one of our arguments are objective. I would just prefer there was less reason for laners to take Jungle camps and you like it the way it is. That's all there is to to it.

It's not because of LCS, or Riot, or Meta, or whatever other reason you want to pretend it is about.

Hencho1011 votes

I'm sorry but only losing 1 camp won't hurt you at ALL. And that's b4 20 min, once 20 min roles around if i need gold but can't farm a lane safely cuz I'm behind, then jg is the only place i can get gold w/o having to worry about some one jumping me and having no where to go. And if i am low and need 100 gold for my IE then yea I'm GOING to take a camp. And if you remove the gold/XP there goes the camp strat for bot, and that shouldn't put you behind at ALL. And lastly I'd REALLY hate to say this but... The jungler doesn't OWN the jungle, he doesn't have a right to EVERY camp, the jungle is built for the TEAM not 1 guy.

Velasan1 votes

{quoted}

I'm sorry but only losing 1 camp won't hurt you at ALL. And that's b4 20 min, once 20 min roles around if i need gold but can't farm a lane safely cuz I'm behind, then jg is the only place i can get gold w/o having to worry about some one jumping me and having no where to go. And if i am low and need 100 gold for my IE then yea I'm GOING to take a camp. And if you remove the gold/XP there goes the camp strat for bot, and that shouldn't put you behind at ALL. And lastly I'd REALLY hate to say this but... The jungler doesn't OWN the jungle, he doesn't have a right to EVERY camp, the jungle is built for the TEAM not 1 guy.

I see your point if your team was well behind and you are a 100 gold off a valuable item. The problem though is when your whole team is doing it.

Also, if everyones in the JG no one is pushing lanes, placing wards where they need to be, or taking objectives you need to win. Gold from jungle camps is significantly lower to just taking lane farm as well.

For reference, Gromp gives 86 gold. A single minion gives 20 gold for Melee and 45 for a cannon. So, it only takes 4 minions to equal that gromp, and you probably miss more than that just from being out of lane. Plus it takes that gold away from your Jungler.

The alternative for the Jungler only being to go to whatever lane you just left and take that farm instead.

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