Can we make it trigger off all sources of physical damage now?
I want to see Riven explode herself on the Tank rather than nuking them into a crater because 75% of her damage doesn't proc Thornmail.
RiotRiotRepertoir46 votesIf Thornmail comes out next patch and is too weak, it seems like the better approach to take would be to make it better at what it's supposed to be good at rather than just making it good against all physical damage. It doesn't really seem right that we should just make it really good against all physical damage. If we need an item that allows tanks and other frontliners to properly deal with Riven, we should make that item, rather than trying to balance an item with a largely different ideal case around also being able to do that.
Scrimshäw21 votesor... instead of having to buy one item just for one champion, nerf the problem champion.
YumaS2Astral29 votes[{quoted}](name=Treasure Goblin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Kt07wA02,comment-id=00120000,timestamp=2015-08-17T00:12:10.170+0000)
or... instead of having to buy one item just for one champion, nerf the problem champion.
To be honest, an item that counters AD casters would be very good. 
isn't the only problem champion. Apart from her, almost every AD caster is or has been considered problematic; namely 
(especially Zed).
AD casters are problematic because every armor item is designed to counter auto-attack reliant AD champions and they are not effective against the fact that AD casters have spells.
RiotRiotRepertoir39 votesThis is the point that I was trying to make ^
YumaS2Astral15 votesThis is the point that I was trying to make ^
I would love if such item existed. It would be a pretty huge nerf for which would allow him to be buffed properly after.
aperson13 votesI would love an anti-AD caster item like this. Active: reduce the next 3 instances of physical damage by 50% or something like that.
Actually, Randuin's should've become this. We have a lot of anti-autoattack itemization anyways; buff FH by 5% and you can still achieve roughly the same level of AS reduction. Right now it's just crowding out cooler HP/Armor items like Sunfire Cape or Ohmwrecker...
RiotRiotRepertoir19 votesCorrect, but it didn't really seem like this was a "nerf Riven, pls" thread. If the problem is that Riven is too strong, you're right, we should be nerfing Riven rather than buffing Thornmail.
Rebonack5 votesCorrect, but it didn't really seem like this was a "nerf Riven, pls" thread. If the problem is that Riven is too strong, you're right, we should be nerfing Riven rather than buffing Thornmail.
Hello!
And thanks for replying.
Part of what caused this thread to be is not only the widening of Thornmail's targets (works better against OnHit, low AD champions that before), but also in part the nerfs to Omen, focusing it more on countering auto-attackers.
Previously Omen was the closest thing we had to an item for countering AD skill damage, but clearly it just isn't going to cut it anymore. Might I suggest a new item, then?
Make an AD counterpart to Odin's Veil from Dominion. Make it nullify and absorb a percentage of damage from AD-spells (lesser amount from auto attacks) and store it for a potent Attack Reset nuke to whollop those rude AD Caster champions.
RiotRiotRepertoir15 votesThanks for the thread!
I'm not exactly sure what we'll do with Armor itemization moving forward, but a "physical spell damage" item counter does seem like it could be a decent idea now that we've explicitly come out and said that some of the Armor items are specifically better against basic attacks. I'd have to check with the Systems team whether that's in the cards, or if it's expected that Armor should generally cover people against AD caster/assassin types.
Rebonack2 votesThanks for the thread!
I'm not exactly sure what we'll do with Armor itemization moving forward, but a "physical spell damage" item counter does seem like it could be a decent idea now that we've explicitly come out and said that some of the Armor items are specifically better against basic attacks. I'd have to check with the Systems team whether that's in the cards, or if it's expected that Armor should generally cover people against AD caster/assassin types.
I wanted in particular to comment on that last bit.
And I'll preface this by saying that I'm primarily a Dominion player, so things that work on my preferred map aren't always viable over on Rift.
Armor/HP stacking largely don't work as an effective counter over in Dominion due to the fact that the four most popular AD champions (Jman, Vi, Jayce, and Wukong) are all able to reliably build assassin-y and completely invalidate one's armor through their kit's built in armor shred and what they get from items. Having an item that reduces physical spell damage (and possibly physical OnHit damage, too. Lookin' at you, Riven) would be an absolute godsend.
NommyPancake3 votesIf it's used against life steal, what about giving "grevious wound" when being hit (auto attack only)?
RiotRiotRepertoir18 votesWe had something very close to this on Thornmail for awhile internally, but I believe it resulted in a question of what options auto attackers even have then if Thornmail not only damages them significantly, but also halves their Lifesteal.
PatMcGroyn8 votesI've been noticing a sweeping trend of removing grievous wounds from champion abilities, almost across the board. Does the balance team really feel that having little to no ways to counter/ mitigate healing is a healthy game mechanic? I've always thought that the anti- healing abilities and items in the game offered meaningful counterplay and more diverse itemization, so the removal of those items is concerning.
EndlessSorcerer12 votesI think they are removing Grevious Wounds specifically so they can rebalance healing abilities without having to consider both the unmitigated and the mitigated heal amounts.
Minrog2 votesI don't mind the concept personally. I just hope ranged lifesteal gets hit afterward. That or normalize the passive lifesteal affect and make it a unique modifier.
Haven't they learned from the 
days?
Sire Hippington2 votes
-
-
- - , the modern day draintank-adc.
Alternative: - -
/
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- , cause why drain from 1 well if you can drain from 3 at once?
Bhargo2 voteshonestly adc lifesteal could use a hit, it's pretty frustrating seeing an adc at 10% health and go back to full after auto attacking for 3 seconds
Whisla4 votesIf Thornmail comes out next patch and is too weak, it seems like the better approach to take would be to make it better at what it's supposed to be good at rather than just making it good against all physical damage. It doesn't really seem right that we should just make it really good against all physical damage. If we need an item that allows tanks and other frontliners to properly deal with Riven, we should make that item, rather than trying to balance an item with a largely different ideal case around also being able to do that.
I think this is the exact opposite way to think about the problem. Thornmail SHOULD be the anti physical item not just for riven but as a whole. Force physical champs to build more lifesteal/armor pen/magic resist instead of full damage. Let tanks manipulate the game by forcing people to choose what they need to counter each item instead of just making items to deal with specific problems.
By nerfing the big anti physical item that already isnt used much because it doesnt do anything to AD casters is just not a great way of going about fixing any problem.
BatchBustsMeta2 votesAn item to counter ad caster would stop soooo much of the QQ threads. People hated lee forever. Zed, riven, vi, and rango. All champs people seem to dislike. Talon got nerfed a ton of times, from having no counterplay. Riot should get on an anti ad caster item ASAP!!
The Yetii Rider4 votesIf Thornmail comes out next patch and is too weak, it seems like the better approach to take would be to make it better at what it's supposed to be good at rather than just making it good against all physical damage. It doesn't really seem right that we should just make it really good against all physical damage. If we need an item that allows tanks and other frontliners to properly deal with Riven, we should make that item, rather than trying to balance an item with a largely different ideal case around also being able to do that.
But...you don't have an item that is good at reducing physical damage right now. Thornmail is designed by nature to counter auto attackers, so is Frozen Heart and so is Randuin's Omen. Each of these items seems to be based around the idea that armor is only bought to deal with auto-attackers, when champions like Garen, Riven, Zed, Darius and Pantheon can deal exorbitant physical damage with their rotations, and only one or two auto attacks inside that rotation.
Dead Man's Plate isn't particularly good at reducing this damage either. So, in this new era of nerfed armor and standard armor penetration, what are we supposed to build in order to protect ourselves against bruisers and assassins with high burst physical damage abilities?
AMYS GRAVE4 votesIt doesn't really seem right that we should just make it really good against all physidcal damage.
Then why are it's stats 100% armor? Isn't that what armor is for, physical damage? As an item this is designed to reflect physical damage, and it does that job poorly. Randuins/FH with its AS slow is an anti AA item, thornmail (being nothing but armor) should be the anti-physical damage item.
Synx72 votesIf Thornmail comes out next patch and is too weak, it seems like the better approach to take would be to make it better at what it's supposed to be good at rather than just making it good against all physical damage. It doesn't really seem right that we should just make it really good against all physical damage. If we need an item that allows tanks and other frontliners to properly deal with Riven, we should make that item, rather than trying to balance an item with a largely different ideal case around also being able to do that.
If Thornmail comes out next patch and is too weak, it seems like the better approach to take would be to make it better at what it's supposed to be good at rather than just making it good against all physical damage
What is the PBE for?
Sire Hippington2 votesAgree that thornmail should stay focused on countering AAs, but riven is a bad example here, as most of her damage vs tanky targets(targts that survive all 3 Qs) comes from her passive-empowered AAs and thus is countered by thornmail, ninjas and co already.
However, i find it rather wierd that thornmail gets the passive changed to scale with armor ' Because Thornmail is such an effective standalone Armor item and additional Armor doesn't really make Thornmail much stronger - Thornmail is strongest when you can stack Health'
Honestly, the way effective health scales, it is pretty obvious that a pure armor item needs health to be effective, as the %return effect scales off effective-health, and effective health needs a mix off HP and Armor. So this change will chanage little about thornmail besides makeing it far worse in a average case, as it still is a pure armor item, so you still want health to maximize your effective health. Pure armor Items actually have to be suffcicient as single-resistance item to actually justify takeing an itemslot... Looking at the new items and bruisers/juggernauts, you would probably want to stack health on most item slots. As i see it, we will get titanc+BC or Trinity+Sterak's into Warmongs(maybe Fm, but new warmongs offers to much sustain to not get it)+1armor+1MR or 2 armor/health + 1 mr, so unless pure armor items are sufficient for resistances on their own, they will only be seen on supportive tanks that itemize purely for tankiness and utillity. And till now, Thornmail was more an egoistic item for fighters/bruisers rather than an item for utillity tanks...probably turning into a rammus only item unless you face a full-ad comp and can stack armor.
SoMNia40 votesWhat? No. Thornmail is a counter to lifesteal. It is supposed to stop carries from endlessly refilling their health from an enemy tank's ample supply. It is NOT supposed to make tanks unkillable by causing carries to blow themselves up if they dare to attack. As a rule, if it doesn't get lifesteal, it doesn't trigger Thornmail. Broken Wings and Wind Slash do not apply lifesteal.
YumaS2Astral4 votesWhat? No. Thornmail is a counter to lifesteal. It is supposed to stop carries from endlessly refilling their health from an enemy tank's ample supply. It is NOT supposed to make tanks unkillable by causing carries to blow themselves up if they dare to attack. As a rule, if it doesn't get lifesteal, it doesn't trigger Thornmail. Broken Wings and Wind Slash do not apply lifesteal.
To be honest, I would like to understand how Thornmail is supposed to counter lifesteal. It can counter if the enemy only has lifesteal. However, once they have crits, penetration, and some magic resistance (either an item that provides magic resistance such as QSS or Banshee, or an ally with Locket of the Iron Solari) then Thornmail becomes worthless against lifesteal. Also, I have seen some ADCs, especially Vayne, that forgo an Infinity Edge and instead use a Bloodthisther + Blade of the Ruined King, this makes them have ridiculous amounts of lifesteal, allowing them to heal more than Thornmail can reflect back.
Thornmail only counters lifesteal early when carries do not have those things. As the game passes, Thornmail tends to fall off, and late game, Thornmail isn't of much help even against ADCs. I personally think that Thornmail could reflect all physical damage to allow it to scale during the game.
It is also important to remember that rushing Thornmail is very risky as this item is completely useless against AP casters.
ViashinoWizard1 votesIt still reduces the amount of health auto-attackers get back from hitting them. Since they build glass canon, ADCs need a large amount of healing-per-shot to get real survival out of lifesteal.
YumaS2Astral3 votesIt still reduces the amount of health auto-attackers get back from hitting them. Since they build glass canon, ADCs need a large amount of healing-per-shot to get real survival out of lifesteal.
It is important to note that if you critically strike, the amount of health regained by lifesteal is doubled. Combine that with the fact that magic resistance largely reduces the amount of lifesteal needed to outpace Thronmail's damage (unless the tank has magic penetration, which is extremely unlikely to happen) and Thornmail basically becomes worthless by late game.
ADCs build mostly glass cannon, but the three defensive items that most ADCs build late game to finish build (
) come with magic resistance, which reduces the damage done by Thornmail. 
(when built by an ally) further reduces this damage.
SoMNia5 votesThe math doesn't support that. Crits increase pre-mitigation damage, which increases damage reflection. As for MR, ADCs have a flat 30 base MR. Add Maw of Malmortius for +40, and the current 30% damage reflection is reduced to about 17.5%. Bloodthirster heals 20% of post-mitigation damage. BY ITSELF, Thornmail causes Bloodthirster to heal less than half of the reflected damage at any amount of AD. Add Last Whisper, and a total of 350 armor will still result in the attacker healing a little over 1/3 of the damage they receive (actual lost health, not pre-mitigation damage), which might be brought up to half if they have BT+BoRK. Thornmail basically always outpaces lifesteal by a significant margin.
There's a REASON armor is getting nerfed, and Thornmail in particular. I know a 400 armor tank gets demolished by magic damage, but a tank is not ever supposed to be immune to an ADC. That's not how it's supposed to work. Sustained DPS is the nominal counter to tanks. An ADC should not need an APC's help and have to 2v1 a tank, just because of Thornmail. And that's only if the tank goes full armor and doesn't fight back. A balanced build that allows them to survive the AP assassin to an extent still leaves the ADC up a creek.
Kuroi865 votesOne thing. Bork actually can heal over Thornmail, it's passive on-hit doesn't proc Thornmail. So at higher levels of health, Bork will actually heal a little more than Thornmail can damage for should it be a non-crit. Granted stacking AD and Crit actually makes it less effective.
UPfreely2 votesdoes hydra proc thornmail? if not that'd be a reasonable change.
Tik11515 votesto be honest Thornmail doesn't do its job very well, especially with certain carries (See as: Vayne, Twitch, Kalista) Running double lifesteal.
It needs some form of compensation or hell make it apply grievous wounds instead
Kuroi861 votesDouble life steal isn't really that great against Thornmail. Bork can life steal more than Thornmail can reflect, but that's due to it's on-hit passive and the fact that you gain life steal from that, not to mention Thornmail doesn't proc off of the on-hit. Meanwhile the more AD you stack, the more damage Thornmail is doing to you.
Durzaka5 votesDouble life steal isn't really that great against Thornmail. Bork can life steal more than Thornmail can reflect, but that's due to it's on-hit passive and the fact that you gain life steal from that, not to mention Thornmail doesn't proc off of the on-hit. Meanwhile the more AD you stack, the more damage Thornmail is doing to you.
NO it cant.
It doesnt even come remotely close to countering the damage thornmail does.
A Miss Fortune1 votesUsually I build and but I believe I can still be hit pretty hard by Thornmail.
The item is probably the most overpowered in the game in my opinion, it offers the highest amount of Armor in the game, has an EXTREMELY low gold cost, and it also has a passive that makes tanks suddenly do 900 magic damage over the course of 3 seconds to your 20-0 ADC.
Durzaka11 votesYou need about 60% lifesteal to break even on Thornmails damage if you only have base MR. Less if you get a veil, or QSS.
Thornmail also gives the lowest effective health of any defensive item. THAT is why the passive is strong.
So why exactly is it a bad thing for the tank to deal 300 dps to your ADC, but it is ok for the ADC to deal 1.2k dps to anyone else?
SoMNia2 votesFrozen Heart nerfs will make it the lowest, for what it's worth.
That aside, the problem comes when a tank can do more damage to an ADC than an ADC can do to a tank, just by existing. Sustained DPS is supposed to be THE way to kill tanks, so it's not appropriate for the entire class of champions whose job it is to DO sustained DPS to end up killing themselves by doing so.
Durzaka2 votesSee, that is the flaw of this rock-paper-scissors balancing method.
Tanks counter assassin/burst Assassins counter ADCs/squishies ADCs counter EVERYTHING.
Because an ADC will kill everything just the same. Whereas a tank or assassin doesnt behave like that.
If ADCs exist as the sole way to counter tanks, what does that say about their abilities to kill assassins or other squishes?
SoMNia2 votesIt's really not. Squishies are squishy. Everyone kills them. Why shouldn't they? I mean...REALLY. Are you serious?
ADCs do not "counter" everything. The job of the attack damage carry is to deal damage. Damage kills things. All the things. It's the defining trait of anyone called a "carry" in this game. They are MEANT to be the backbone of their team's damage-dealing capability, IF they can survive long enough to do so. The other defining trait is that they sacrifice nearly all defensive capability or itemization in the name of doing damage. They kill everyone, but they don't outright delete anyone, and they are just as vulnerable to being killed, because they are also squishy. The question is, how fast do they kill?
The reason for that question is assassins. It is their job to do enough damage to kill a single target as quickly as possible — more quickly than an ADC, and the enemy ADC is usually their primary target. An ADC can't 1v1 an assassin, because their whole thing is "I'm going to kill you in particular, right the hell now". And then they have cooldowns, because they're only supposed to delete one target at a time, not your whole team. (ahem Kat, what do you think you're doing? That's wrong. No. Stop.) But see, while assassins mainly kill squishies, that's really most of the team, anyway. ADC? Check. Enemy assassin? Check. Utility support? Check. Burst mage? Check, if they don't have Zhonya's ready. Even semi-tanky bruisers, if they're feeling gutsy. Assassins kill anyone who's NOT a tank, and they do it much faster than an ADC.
The job of a tank is to be bulky enough that nobody can kill them quickly. They survive the assassin's burst with plenty of room to spare, and then maul their face while their cooldowns are ticking, because everyone kills squishies. The thing that makes ADCs able to kill tanks is the lack of cooldowns. It takes them longer to match the damage of the assassin's burst, but then they don't stop.
Going back to your earlier question, it's bad for a tank to do 300 DPS to an ADC even through their lifesteal JUST BY STANDING THERE, and more if they actually attack, because ADCs are squishy (you know, that trait that means everyone kills them if given a chance), and they can't do their ONLY JOB if doing it gets them killed without their opponents even doing anything. This REALLY shouldn't be that controversial as a concept.
It's not so much that ADCs counter tanks. It's that tankiness counters every kind of damage that's NOT sustained DPS. It's that ADCs are the only ones tanks aren't supposed to counter (except by surviving a bit longer and being able to apply CC to give an assassin an opening in a teamfight; NOT by killing them alone, because only an assassin or burst mage should do that). And then Thornmail comes into the picture, and suddenly the only one who could beat them alone now kills themselves trying. Thornmail is overtuned. It deserves the nerf.
Carnarius3 votesIt's really not. Squishies are squishy. Everyone kills them. Why shouldn't they? I mean...REALLY. Are you serious?
ADCs do not "counter" everything. The job of the attack damage carry is to deal damage. Damage kills things. All the things. It's the defining trait of anyone called a "carry" in this game. They are MEANT to be the backbone of their team's damage-dealing capability, IF they can survive long enough to do so. The other defining trait is that they sacrifice nearly all defensive capability or itemization in the name of doing damage. They kill everyone, but they don't outright delete anyone, and they are just as vulnerable to being killed, because they are also squishy. The question is, how fast do they kill?
The reason for that question is assassins. It is their job to do enough damage to kill a single target as quickly as possible — more quickly than an ADC, and the enemy ADC is usually their primary target. An ADC can't 1v1 an assassin, because their whole thing is "I'm going to kill you in particular, right the hell now". And then they have cooldowns, because they're only supposed to delete one target at a time, not your whole team. (ahem Kat, what do you think you're doing? That's wrong. No. Stop.) But see, while assassins mainly kill squishies, that's really most of the team, anyway. ADC? Check. Enemy assassin? Check. Utility support? Check. Burst mage? Check, if they don't have Zhonya's ready. Even semi-tanky bruisers, if they're feeling gutsy. Assassins kill anyone who's NOT a tank, and they do it much faster than an ADC.
The job of a tank is to be bulky enough that nobody can kill them quickly. They survive the assassin's burst with plenty of room to spare, and then maul their face while their cooldowns are ticking, because everyone kills squishies. The thing that makes ADCs able to kill tanks is the lack of cooldowns. It takes them longer to match the damage of the assassin's burst, but then they don't stop.
Going back to your earlier question, it's bad for a tank to do 300 DPS to an ADC even through their lifesteal JUST BY STANDING THERE, and more if they actually attack, because ADCs are squishy (you know, that trait that means everyone kills them if given a chance), and they can't do their ONLY JOB if doing it gets them killed without their opponents even doing anything. This REALLY shouldn't be that controversial as a concept.
It's not so much that ADCs counter tanks. It's that tankiness counters every kind of damage that's NOT sustained DPS. It's that ADCs are the only ones tanks aren't supposed to counter (except by surviving a bit longer and being able to apply CC to give an assassin an opening in a teamfight; NOT by killing them alone, because only an assassin or burst mage should do that). And then Thornmail comes into the picture, and suddenly the only one who could beat them alone now kills themselves trying. Thornmail is overtuned. It deserves the nerf.
maybe in bronze. sorry, but you have no idea how it looks in higher elo, where adc has insane peel and it's very unlikely for him to die, and where full tanks explode in less than 2 seconds. the amount of both ad and ap damage combined with crazy amounts of penetration make tanks squishy honestly, and thornmail doesn't change anything right now, especially with the fact that adc is most the time the only champ in a team that uses aa to deal damage. so yeah, thornmail (armor items overall) is pretty much useless at late game right now, and it will get even worse after 5.16
lDontLiftIcarry4 votesyou'll kill a tank years before you die to thornmail unless you're shit at a moving lol.
Horrow8 votesWhat? No. Thornmail is a counter to lifesteal. It is supposed to stop carries from endlessly refilling their health from an enemy tank's ample supply. It is NOT supposed to make tanks unkillable by causing carries to blow themselves up if they dare to attack. As a rule, if it doesn't get lifesteal, it doesn't trigger Thornmail. Broken Wings and Wind Slash do not apply lifesteal.
I disagree. Thornmail is designed to help counter auto-attack reliant champions. That shouldn't be confused for 'countering lifesteal'.
You wanna know what it would need in order to be considered a counter to life steal? It would require the Grievous Wounds debuff. Then it could be considered a counter to life steal.
As is, lifesteal is the counter to Thornmail.
Big Lincoln28 votes ults the tank and soon sees the shuriken over his own head as he jukes himself to "safety"
yes please
Only Play Darius1 votesLmao crying about Zed. If Zed ulted the tank, he's made himself absolutely useless for the next 60 seconds, even if it killed the tank.
Big Lincoln12 voteslmao fishing for upvotes
it was a joke post, i don't have a problem with zed
EndlessSorcerer9 votesTalon ults in the middle of 4 tanks. Instantly dies.
Zaghyr6 votesSo you want AOE casters to be punished for using AOE spells? The tank would just stand there and everything around him would start dying regardless of if he was focused or not.
Vincent Lucius4 votesWhen you say AoE casters do you mean people who build AP? Because the proposal here is to have things like Zed's shuriken (AD) and Riven's broken wings (AD) trigger the damage. AoE casters like lux or Cass would be unaffected and it might balance things out with the new damage reduction on thornmail by making it be set off by AD based abilities.
Hemoparty5 votesIt may just be me but I think we need more items that specifically work against AD Casters. Thornmail, Frozen Heart and Randuin's all work best against markspeople and Sunfire Cape's dps aura doesn't help so much in short, bursty fights. I guess you can "just" stack armor but that doesn't feel specifc enough. Maybe an armor equivalent to Banshee's. -upvotes-
IcyPepper2 votesDoesn't banshee's technically block any spell? The health is useful tho, even if the MR isn't, due to being the somewhat universal defensive stat.
But problem is, it's called a spellshield... there's this one item on ARAM that's really cool. 
I could see a physical damage shield on an armor item version.
TheVishual5 votesCan we make it trigger off all sources of physical damage now?
I want to see Riven explode herself on the Tank rather than nuking them into a crater because 75% of her damage doesn't proc Thornmail.
The problem is half of the responses on this thread will be from adc mains who say thornmail nerfs are fair and balanced